we are still living in the third kingdom of grecia rome was but a colony

[ross3421]

why do you think we name viruses and space events after the greeks........

in addition, this third kingdom is broken into four parts which are the lion, bear, leopard, beast.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

[RandyPNW]

We use a lot of Greek and Latin because early investigation into Science started there. None of this means we are still in the time the Bible refers to as the time of the 4 kingdoms (Dan 2 and 7).

I do believe, however, that the 4th Kingdom, Rome, continues until the end of the age. And it's not just because we use Latin at times. Rather, it is because the Roman Empire was the last of the 4 Kingdoms mentioned by Daniel.

And it formed the identity of European Civilization, including the Holy Roman Empire, and a number of Christian nations evolving from early Roman Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity). The Roman Kingdom, we are told, will suffer a fatal wound, and yet rise by the union of 10 nations, 7 kings of which will ultimately ally with Antichrist.

[Fenris]

I do believe, however, that the 4th Kingdom, Rome, continues until the end of the age. And it's not just because we use Latin at times. Rather, it is because the Roman Empire was the last of the 4 Kingdoms mentioned by Daniel.

And it formed the identity of European Civilization

This is the standard Jewish understanding as well.

[Athanasius]

Not a colony, a continuation. More a spiritual successor than anything, modern Rome notwithstanding.

[ross3421]

We use a lot of Greek and Latin because early investigation into Science started there. None of this means we are still in the time the Bible refers to as the time of the 4 kingdoms (Dan 2 and 7).

however the four kingdoms in 2 are not the same as 7.

the third kingdom grecia in 2 is broken into four parts thus chapter 2 cannot be the four parts

[RandyPNW]

We use a lot of Greek and Latin because early investigation into Science started there. None of this means we are still in the time the Bible refers to as the time of the 4 kingdoms (Dan 2 and 7).

however the four kingdoms in 2 are not the same as 7.

the third kingdom grecia in 2 is broken into four parts thus chapter 2 cannot be the four parts

On a previous Bible forum I engaged pretty extensively in this argument. The person I was arguing with felt the same way you do, that Dan 2 has a different list of kingdoms than Dan 7. And the reason given was that the Dan 7 list could *not,* it was thought, include Babylon.

However, I don't know if you wish to go down the various arguments in this line of thinking? I do believe, the list of 4 kingdoms is the same, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. I think there is nothing "immoral" about holding one view or the other. It's just an honest difference of opinion.

[ross3421]

We use a lot of Greek and Latin because early investigation into Science started there. None of this means we are still in the time the Bible refers to as the time of the 4 kingdoms (Dan 2 and 7).

however the four kingdoms in 2 are not the same as 7.

the third kingdom grecia in 2 is broken into four parts thus chapter 2 cannot be the four parts

On a previous Bible forum I engaged pretty extensively in this argument. The person I was arguing with felt the same way you do, that Dan 2 has a different list of kingdoms than Dan 7. And the reason given was that the Dan 7 list could *not,* it was thought, include Babylon.

However, I don't know if you wish to go down the various arguments in this line of thinking? I do believe, the list of 4 kingdoms is the same, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. I think there is nothing "immoral" about holding one view or the other. It's just an honest difference of opinion.

grecia the third kingdom dan 2 is broken into four parts then kingdoms one and two of dan 2 cannot be included in the four parts logically think about it


20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

[RandyPNW]

however the four kingdoms in 2 are not the same as 7.

the third kingdom grecia in 2 is broken into four parts thus chapter 2 cannot be the four parts

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The standard answer is that there are subsets of each set of 4 kingdoms. The 1st set is just the head. The 2nd set consists of 2 arms. The 3rd set consists of 2 thighs. And the 4th set consists of 2 legs.

I'm skipping all of the other parts just to emphasize the dual nature of some of these kingdoms. Just as a body is symmetrical and bilateral, so are each of these kingdoms.

In the case of the head, you may have two ears and two eyes, and still have just one head. In the case of the upper torso you may have two arms without violating a single upper torso. In the case of the lower torso you may have two thighs without violating a single torso. In the case of the legs, they work together and constitute a bilateral function without violating the idea of a single function, which involves standing, walking, or running.

Dan 2 presents the 4 kingdoms in just this way, as including the various bilateral functions which number more than 4 and yet belong to the 4. Dan 7 confirms  that the 2nd kingdom has 2 appendages, just as we see in Dan 2 there are 2 arms. These 2 facets, belonging to the 2nd kingdom, represent Media and Persia.

[ross3421]

however the four kingdoms in 2 are not the same as 7.

the third kingdom grecia in 2 is broken into four parts thus chapter 2 cannot be the four parts

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The standard answer is that there are subsets of each set of 4 kingdoms. The 1st set is just the head. The 2nd set consists of 2 arms. The 3rd set consists of 2 thighs. And the 4th set consists of 2 legs.

I'm skipping all of the other parts just to emphasize the dual nature of some of these kingdoms. Just as a body is symmetrical and bilateral, so are each of these kingdoms.

In the case of the head, you may have two ears and two eyes, and still have just one head. In the case of the upper torso you may have two arms without violating a single upper torso. In the case of the lower torso you may have two thighs without violating a single torso. In the case of the legs, they work together and constitute a bilateral function without violating the idea of a single function, which involves standing, walking, or running.

Dan 2 presents the 4 kingdoms in just this way, as including the various bilateral functions which number more than 4 and yet belong to the 4. Dan 7 confirms  that the 2nd kingdom has 2 appendages, just as we see in Dan 2 there are 2 arms. These 2 facets, belonging to the 2nd kingdom, represent Media and Persia.

with your logic then parts of babylon and mp are parts of grecia.......

again grecia being the third kingdom dan 2 being broken would void any previous kingdoms being its parts which includes babylon and mp thus the four parts in dan 7 cannot include babylon and mp.

[RandyPNW]

with your logic then parts of babylon and mp are parts of grecia.......

Since you provide no explanation and no detail, I have to dismiss your objection.

again grecia being the third kingdom dan 2 being broken would void any previous kingdoms being its parts which includes babylon and mp thus the four parts in dan 7 cannot include babylon and mp.

I agree that Greece is the 3rd kingdom, and I think it is so in both Dan 2 and Dan 7. The breaking up of Greece, the 3rd kingdom, into 4 parts has nothing to do with identifying the 3rd kingdom in either Dan 2 or Dan 7. This is a description of what happens to the 3rd kingdom, and is not just being used to describe who the 3rd kingdom is.

The 3rd kingdom is described in Dan 2 as belly and thighs of bronze. In Dan 7 it is described as a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads.

There is nothing about 4 parts in Dan 2, but the outcome of the kingdom is define as being defeated and supplanted by a future kingdom. In Dan 7,  the outcome of the third kingdom consists of a split into 4 kingdoms. In other words, it describes a transition from one head to four heads. And this is depicted later in Dan 8.8, where a large horn of a goat is broken off and replaced with 4 prominent horns.

Whereas the 2 arms, the 2 thighs, and the 2 legs appear to be original constituent parts of each of these sets, the 4 wings and 4 heads appear to be describing how the 3rd beast appears as an outcome--there comes to be a division.

This is a product of there being 2 different dreams, one more focused on identification, and the last dream, the dream of Daniel, being more explanatory in nature, describing outcomes in more detail. I see no contradiction in this.

[ross3421]

I agree that Greece is the 3rd kingdom, and I think it is so in both Dan 2 and Dan 7.

so then in your view who are the four parts?  in dan2/ 7 the 4th kingdom/beast would need to be one of the four then in dan 2/7 who are the others?

[RandyPNW]

I agree that Greece is the 3rd kingdom, and I think it is so in both Dan 2 and Dan 7.

so then in your view who are the four parts?  in dan2/ 7 the 4th kingdom/beast would need to be one of the four then in dan 2/7 who are the others?

Dan 2:
The 1st Body part is the Head, which is Babylon.
The 2nd Body part is the Chest and 2 Arms, which are Media and Persia.
The 3rd Body part is the Stomach and 2 Thighs, which are the European and Asian branches of the Hellenistic Empire.
The 4th Body part are the 2 Legs and 2 Feet, which represent the Eastern and Western branches of the Roman Empire, both ancient and modern phases.

Dan 7:
The 1st Beast is the Lion with Eagle Wings, which is Babylon.
The 2nd Beast is the Bear with 2 Sides, one elevated higher than the other, which are Media and Persia, Persia being elevated above Media.
The 3rd Beast is the Leopard with 4 Wings and 4 Heads, which is Greece, which expanded in all 4 directions, ultimately coalescing into 4 major political sections, Greece, Asia Minor/Persia, Syria, and Egypt.

The major "home" of Alexander's Empire may be viewed as the 2 "thighs" of Greece and Asia Minor. The expansion to include the Northern and Southern powers of Syria and Egypt came later, after Alexander's death. So what began as 2 facets of East and West, Europe and Asia, later became 4 facets of North, South, East, and West.

So Greece is the West, in Europe. Asia Minor and Persia are the East, in Asia. Syria is the North, and Egypt the South. Maybe?

The 4th Beast is the indescribable destroyer, which in history can only be Rome, who crucified Jesus, murdered the apostles and saints, became the 1st Christian State in history, and out of which the great Apostasy from Christianity is taking place.