The Name of God

[JoshuaStone7]

It's the same self-description we read in Revelation 22.13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End". Said another way, Revelation 22.13 reads "I am".

Greetings brother, I agreed with everything you said up till this point.

The Greek word used in Rev 22:13 for "I am" is the word egó; it's simply a first pronoun. So, in other words, it just means "I." The word "am" is just a translation addition.

In Genesis, God says, "I exist," EH·WEH, wherein Rev God is saying, "I am the first and last."

Do you see what I mean? One can't read into Rev 22:13, "I exist the first and last."

All love

Joshua



 

[RandyPNW]

Truly a technicality as the semantic meaning is the same.

Agreed, other than when explaining to someone the meaning of YHWH, or speaking about Him. I often hear Christians saying, "I Am" said this or that. Where if one would like to use correct vocabulary, one would say "He Is" said this or that, just as God directed Moses.

Is there a difference? Yes. Does it matter? Probably not...lol

In my humble opinion of course...

Joshua

I am
He is
Existence is not a real predicate

Er, Kant shows up when you least expect him.

But no, I agree with what you're saying. The speaker says "I am", and the hearer reports "He is". Although if someone wanted to say something like, "He is the great I am" then I'll nod and smile.

It may be something like He--God.  It may be like identifying "He" with "God." Perhaps like a room full of idols and Jesus standing among them, and then pointing at Jesus and saying, "He God."

I'm not sure I quite follow; it's a matter of grammar:

'I am' is something a person would say when talking about themselves. It's first-person.
'He is' is something a person would say when talking about another. It's third-person.

There's also the descriptive, 'He is the great I AM'. Here we see 'He is' used as a reference rather than a 'name'. This is likely why it seems awkward for us to talk about God as the 'He is' rather than the 'I am'. We do sing that way in worship, though.

In all cases, the meaning seems to be something like, "the self-existent one". It's the same self-description we read in Revelation 22.13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End". Said another way, Revelation 22.13 reads "I am". Where's Mr antiTrinity when you need him?

It's really over my head. It is a 3rd person form apparently, and identifies the name of God. He-God. So perhaps its a form of identification more than expression of a verb. His existence is not an action He takes, but what identifies who He is.

[Athanasius]

Greetings brother, I agreed with everything you said up till this point.

The Greek word used in Rev 22:13 for "I am" is the word egó; it's simply a first pronoun. So, in other words, it just means "I." The word "am" is just a translation addition.

In Genesis, God says, "I exist," EH·WEH, wherein Rev God is saying, "I am the first and last."

Do you see what I mean? One can't read into Rev 22:13, "I exist the first and last."

All love

Joshua

Yes, the Greek says:

ἐγὼ τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ὦ
I the alpha and the omega

But what do you mean by 'just a translation' addition? "I the alpha and omega" carries the same semantic meaning whether we leave it is as, or add an 'am' (which makes perfect translational sense), or insert a comma ("I, the alpha and omega"), etc.

Are you saying we should understand this some other way?

As to the description, I had Exodus 3 in mind: I am, I was, I will be. Then here, in Revelation, three refrains to drive the point home. (first and last, first and last, first and last; the eternally existed one.)

Do you see what I mean? One can't read into Rev 22:13, "I exist the first and last."

Well no, no one would have to read anything in Revelation 22. It would read:

ἐγὼ τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ὦ,
ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος,
ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος.

Literally:

I the alpha and the omega,
the first and the last,
the beginning and the end

The "I am" here means just that. It's not taken to mean "I am" as in Exodus 3. The whole description is, though.

ἔσχατος, and we're in the apologetics forum!

[JoshuaStone7]

The "I am" here means just that. It's not taken to mean "I am" as in Exodus 3. The whole description is, though.

That is what I assumed you were saying, that the egó in the Greek was intending to say "I exist."

However, if you are saying the entire scripture is equal to the EH·WEH in Hebrew, I would have to say that is an interpretation. There are other ways scripture speaks of Christ as the first and last, other than inferring eternal existence.

"that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26:23b

"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit." 1Cor 15:45

Joshua

[Athanasius]

The "I am" here means just that. It's not taken to mean "I am" as in Exodus 3. The whole description is, though.

That is what I assumed you were saying, that the egó in that the Greek was intending to say "I exist."

However, if you are saying the entire scripture is equal to the EH·WEH in Hebrew, I would have to say that is an interpretation. There are other was scripture speaks of Christ as the first and last, other than inferring eternal existence.

"that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26:23b

"So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit." 1Cor 15:45

Joshua

There are other Scriptures where first and last language is used, yes. But, context is why I made the point with Revelation 22.

[Titus]

The Name of God is Jesus Christ.

[RabbiKnife]

Christ is not a name, but a title.

Jesus/Yeshua is the name of the 2nd person of the Trinity.  Christ/anointed one/Messiah is His title.

Holy Spirit/Spiritu Sanctus/ etc is the name of the 3rd person of the Trinity.

I am/YWHW/etc is the name of the 1st person of the Trinity.

[Titus]

Christ is not a name, but a title.

Jesus/Yeshua is the name of the 2nd person of the Trinity.  Christ/anointed one/Messiah is His title.

Holy Spirit/Spiritu Sanctus/ etc is the name of the 3rd person of the Trinity.

I am/YWHW/etc is the name of the 1st person of the Trinity.

Jesus is clearly a Name.

So interesting how so many people spout off all these specific details about the dynamics of the trinity when it is taught literally nowhere in Scripture.

It's like me arguing with you that science can't be right about this claim or that because Chewbacca only wears specific weapon ammo belts across his chest and the Millennium Falcon is only capable of specific warp speeds in specific space-field scenarios.

And looking at you with a completely straight face when I say it.

Can you please provide any Scripture whatsoever that "TEACHES" a trinity concept, that explains how God is three people?

Thanks.

All of humanity will be pleased to see that.

[Quantrill]

@Titus

Actually, the Trinity is taught in the Scripture.  But, our complete understanding of it is impossible to grasp. 

As far as Scripture, (John 17) is good proof that there is distinction between God the Father, and God the Son Who is Jesus.  Read it all but (17:5) in particular.

Quantrill

[Titus]

Actually, the Trinity is taught in the Scripture.

Where might that trinity teaching be located?

[Quantrill]

@Titus

Well, that is what is being addressed.  Do you recognize the distinction in (John 17) between God the Father and God the Son? 

Note (17:1)  "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee."

Note (17:3) "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

Note (17:5).  "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Quantrill

[Athanasius]

Jesus is clearly a Name.

So interesting how so many people spout off all these specific details about the dynamics of the trinity when it is taught literally nowhere in Scripture.

It's like me arguing with you that science can't be right about this claim or that because Chewbacca only wears specific weapon ammo belts across his chest and the Millennium Falcon is only capable of specific warp speeds in specific space-field scenarios.

And looking at you with a completely straight face when I say it.

Can you please provide any Scripture whatsoever that "TEACHES" a trinity concept, that explains how God is three people?

Thanks.

All of humanity will be pleased to see that.

And 'Christ' is not. You're making sloppy claims.

You've been given the opportunity to engage in good faith. If you're unable to do so, I will once more show you the door, permanently.

Also, you might like Dream Theater's song, "In the Name of God"