Chronology

[Athanasius]

So He's speaking about the people being able to understand events to come, right? Isn't He saying they should recegnise prophecy being fulfilled in Him?

Prophecy being fulfilled in Jesus is how I'd understand it, or at least, I think what makes them hypocritical is the parallel between their acts of recognition:

- Recognising the signs of the sky and earth
- Recognising the signs Jesus performed

In the first case, they recognised the signs and acted in accordance with what they saw, but in the second case, they recognised the signs then denied and resisted what they saw. Consequently, they would continue to resist any other signs pertaining to Jesus as His earthly ministry progressed. So, this thing that begins as a denial of Jesus works itself out in broader ways.

Does it make sense to call them hypocrites because they studied the prophecies but came to the wrong conclusions? I don't think so, at least in just that aspect alone. What pushes them over the line is that they were in denial, they were stubborn, they didn't like what they saw. Cloud in the west? Rain. Jesus raises the dead back to life?

Hypocrites.

[journeyman]

So He's speaking about the people being able to understand events to come, right? Isn't He saying they should recegnise prophecy being fulfilled in Him?

Prophecy being fulfilled in Jesus is how I'd understand it, or at least, I think what makes them hypocritical is the parallel between their acts of recognition:

- Recognising the signs of the sky and earth
- Recognising the signs Jesus performed

In the first case, they recognised the signs and acted in accordance with what they saw, but in the second case, they recognised the signs then denied and resisted what they saw. Consequently, they would continue to resist any other signs pertaining to Jesus as His earthly ministry progressed. So, this thing that begins as a denial of Jesus works itself out in broader ways.

Does it make sense to call them hypocrites because they studied the prophecies but came to the wrong conclusions? I don't think so, at least in just that aspect alone. What pushes them over the line is that they were in denial, they were stubborn, they didn't like what they saw. Cloud in the west? Rain. Jesus raises the dead back to life?

Hypocrites.

This is true. God's word tells us,

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev.19:19

Before I came to know the Lord, a guy came up to me on the street and asked if I believed in Jesus. I said yes. Then he said, "Go over to that giy waiting for the bus and tell him Jesus died for him." Then he walked away, but my reaction to his request was aversion, because I didn't really believe in Jesus the way I should have. In fact, I was ashamed of him. I cared more about looking foolish for Jesus than I did about Jesus.

Our Lord did many miracles, but even some people who believed in him wouldn't confess him openly for fear of being excommunicated from the synagogue by the religious authority.

Fear is a tool the devil uses in people to keep them fron God, from entering his Kingdom through our Savior. After opposing Jesus during his earthly ministry (3 1/2 years?), they crucified him. I believe that is the abomination that causes desolation, the rejection of God is what makes people desolate.

[Athanasius]

Before I came to know the Lord, a guy came up to me on the street and asked if I believed in Jesus. I said yes. Then he said, "Go over to that giy waiting for the bus and tell him Jesus died for him." Then he walked away, but my reaction to his request was aversion, because I didn't really believe in Jesus the way I should have. In fact, I was ashamed of him. I cared more about looking foolish for Jesus than I did about Jesus.

Sure, I can see that:

- Uh, but I'll look dumb?
- Uh, but what's the point?
- Uh, I don't know that person?

And so on. A funny thing about people, though, is that they don't tend to care what another has to say if they don't think that another person cares about them, personally. So when you go up to a guy waiting for a bus and say 'Jesus died for you', well, then what? Were you under some unknown angelic instructions and this would have led to something? Or was this just some random guy asking you to do something randomly and meaninglessly?

Well, or maybe it was the prompt you needed and not about the other guy at all. I guess that's what you're conveying.

You believe the abomination of desolation is the crucifixion, or fear?

[journeyman]

Sure, I can see that:

- Uh, but I'll look dumb?
- Uh, but what's the point?
- Uh, I don't know that person?

And so on. A funny thing about people, though, is that they don't tend to care what another has to say if they don't think that another person cares about them, personally. So when you go up to a guy waiting for a bus and say 'Jesus died for you', well, then what? Were you under some unknown angelic instructions and this would have led to something? Or was this just some random guy asking you to do something randomly and meaninglessly?

Well, or maybe it was the prompt you needed and not about the other guy at all. I guess that's what you're conveying.

I agree. The Lord knew I wasn't going to tell the guy about the gospel, so it was a prompt for me. Maybe theguy who walked up to me was an angel in disguise.

You believe the abomination of desolation is the crucifixion, or fear?

I believe it's the crucifixion to anyone who thinks trying to get fid of God is a good thing. That's really what those who didn't like what Jesus was saying were trying to do. Shut him up, get rid of him.  Read  Pro.6:16-19. Those 7 sins were all committed against Jesus and are an abomination to him. An abomination that causes desolation.
[/quote]

[Athanasius]

I believe it's the crucifixion to anyone who thinks trying to get fid of God is a good thing. That's really what those who didn't like what Jesus was saying were trying to do. Shut him up, get rid of him.  Read  Pro.6:16-19. Those 7 sins were all committed against Jesus and are an abomination to him. An abomination that causes desolation.

That seems too general to me. Wouldn't Jesus have been more particular given the reference?

It's not just that the abomination of desolation generally wants to get rid of God, but does something specific, like demand to be exalted in the place of God (Antiochus IV). Rome besieged Jerusalem in 70 CE, perhaps that is a good candidate? There were plenty of Christians who fled once they saw the Roman armies, probably with Jesus' words in mind.

Or to say it another way: the abomination of desolation wants to get rid of God, but not everyone who wants to get rid of God is the abomination of desolation.

[JoshuaStone7]

It's not just that the abomination of desolation generally wants to get rid of God, but does something specific, like demand to be exalted in the place of God (Antiochus IV). Rome besieged Jerusalem in 70 CE, perhaps that is a good candidate? There were plenty of Christians who fled once they saw the Roman armies, probably with Jesus' words in mind.

Or to say it another way: the abomination of desolation wants to get rid of God, but not everyone who wants to get rid of God is the abomination of desolation.

Check this out:

"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" Mth 23:39

Many believe Jesus here is saying the religious leaders before Him would at some point suddenly come to faith and declare Jesus as Lord. Is this so?

"I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him." Jhn 5:43

Jesus is saying they will be declaring their false messiah when saying, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

When Jesus switches His words from the leaders He was condemning to Jerusalem itself, he says their house would be left desolate, a wilderness.

"See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Mth 23:38

Now, look at our Lord's words in Chapter 24,

"So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it." Mth 24:26

That word translated in Mth 24:26 for wilderness is erémos and is that same word used in Mth 23:39 as desolate. Jesus appears to me to be saying that Jerusalem would declare their false messiah after their house is made desolate.

This was our Lord's answer to His disciple's question beginning this chapter. They had just heard Jesus speaking in the courtyard and were curious about when the events He was just speaking of would occur.

"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many." Mth 24:3,4

So then, two days after Ps 118:26 was fulfilled, Jesus proceeds here to explain what He meant by His audience, saying, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." He's not saying they all of a sudden will come to some mass repentance when they see Him in the clouds (at which point is too late), but rather they will not see Him again until they announce and accept their own false messiah.

IMO, of course...

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The reason I bring this up is the abomination being discussed in this thread.

"For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." Mth 24:24

"Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth." Rev 13:14

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, " 2Th 2:9

So the lawless one who performs signs to deceive comes in accordance with how the satan works. And how does he work?

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2Cor 11:14

That's how the satan works, he presents himself as an angel of light.

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So Babylon, BTG, the mother of harlots; What was their attitude at the tower? They wished to come together to make a name for themselves, absent of God and absent of His commands. That is the spirit of antichrist. Mankind coming together in place of Christ, claiming they will bring peace to the world without a single mention of God.

In order to keep this post short, I will paraphrase my current understanding. I believe the apostasy will be a governmental agency such as the UN that will require Christians to become part of a conglomerate earthly organization to continue preaching.

This conglomerate organization will be declaring they will bring peace to the world and become the 8th king, a world power. This will be excepted by the spiritual Jerusalem when they declare the UN(?) is working on behalf of YHWH. At which point they take apostasy upon themselves that will eventually lead to the removal of the daily sacrifice. (Heb 13:15,16)

The abomination comes in accordance with how the satan works, as an angel of light declaring peace and security to all man without any mention of God.

In short, this is my current understanding...

Joshua

[journeyman]

That seems too general to me. Wouldn't Jesus have been more particular given the reference?

It's not just that the abomination of desolation generally wants to get rid of God, but does something specific, like demand to be exalted in the place of God (Antiochus IV). Rome besieged Jerusalem in 70 CE, perhaps that is a good candidate? There were plenty of Christians who fled once they saw the Roman armies, probably with Jesus' words in mind.

Or to say it another way: the abomination of desolation wants to get rid of God, but not everyone who wants to get rid of God is the abomination of desolation.

I believe Jesus was being particular when he said,

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mk.3:19

Why is tribulation greater at that time than any other? Is it greater because more people will suffer at that time than any other, or the methods of suffering will be more harsh? I don't think that's what he meant. I believe it's because Jesus is the epitomy of the suffering of God on earth. Jesus said,

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mk.13:24

Is Jesus talking about the sun and moon up in the sky, or is he using those luminaries as symbols? Peter said,

this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.....The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come Act.2:16,20, Joel 2:31

He cited that prophecy as a current reality. Peter says,

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Act.2:23

The great light God gave to earth is turned into darkness. And the moon, which has no light of itself, but reflects the light of the sun is turned into blood. His followers being persecuted.

I heard a guy say once that people who refuse to worship the one true God are gods to themselves. 1Jn.2:22 says,

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1Jn.4:3

And with respect to "The Antichrist", he ends up in the lake of fire, as do all the other little antichrists. So what's the difference?

[RandyPNW]

I believe Jesus was being particular when he said,

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mk.3:19

Why is tribulation greater at that time than any other? Is it greater because more people will suffer at that time than any other, or the methods of suffering will be more harsh? I don't think that's what he meant...

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the Great Tribulation is greater than any *punishment* that the *Jewish People* had ever experienced for failing to remain true to their covenant with God. Luke makes this clearest of all among the 3 Gospel versions of the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 21.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Futurists today are irrationally trying to make this about the Reign of Antichrist, and ignore anything that involves less than endtime material. They love the sensationalism involved with trying to predict contemporary events and interpret what they mean in the light of prophecy.

Well, the NT Jewish Diaspora has been taking place in history, and is also continuing to this day, even though the Jewish People are back in the Promised Land. These are now contemporary events, even though this "Jewish Punishment" has been happening throughout NT history.

It is the *worst* tribulation the Jewish People have ever experienced because it is the *longest* punishment the Jewish People have ever been delivered over to. And yet these Christians still want to make this all about 666, the Beast, and a matter of predicting events surrounding the Antichrist, which Dispensationalists think they will escape from beforehand.

I can't tell you how many times and how many forums I have posted this on in the last couple of years. And yet there is no response to it of any merit, because it's the truth! These Christians just don't like to be told different from what they want to believe. But I'm sorry--it's God's truth that matters, and not what we *want* to believe!

[JoshuaStone7]

Futurists today are irrationally trying to make this about the Reign of Antichrist, and ignore anything that involves less than endtime material. .

I can't tell you how many times and how many forums I have posted this on in the last couple of years. And yet there is no response to it of any merit, because it's the truth! These Christians just don't like to be told different from what they want to believe. But I'm sorry--it's God's truth that matters, and not what we *want* to believe!

Greetings friend...

If you wouldn't mind I'd like to offer the "merit" you're searching for. I posted it yesterday in fact.

Proof 70 CE did not have anything to do with prophecy: https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=184.msg2671;topicseen#new

Other than our Lord's words about one stone upon another, of course...

And as always, this is only my opinion.

All love.

Joshua

PS: Some of my closest Christian friends are Preterists; I'm well versed.

[Athanasius]

And with respect to "The Antichrist", he ends up in the lake of fire, as do all the other little antichrists. So what's the difference?

I'm not sure what the question pertains to, but in this immediate context, the difference would be between the Antichrist and those who have a spirit of anti-Christ. Their ultimate destination is the same, sure, but if we accept that there will be a distinct figure satisfying the role of the AntiChrist, who we'll call Damien, then the lives these people live and the impact these people will have in the world will be in the same vein as Damien's, who will be degrees of worse.

Or maybe there is no Damien and Gregory Peck is just an excellent actor.

[RandyPNW]

Futurists today are irrationally trying to make this about the Reign of Antichrist, and ignore anything that involves less than endtime material. .

I can't tell you how many times and how many forums I have posted this on in the last couple of years. And yet there is no response to it of any merit, because it's the truth! These Christians just don't like to be told different from what they want to believe. But I'm sorry--it's God's truth that matters, and not what we *want* to believe!

Greetings friend...

If you wouldn't mind I'd like to offer the "merit" you're searching for. I posted it yesterday in fact.

Proof 70 CE did not have anything to do with prophecy: https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=184.msg2671;topicseen#new

Other than our Lord's words about one stone upon another, of course...

And as always, this is only my opinion.

All love.

Joshua

PS: Some of my closest Christian friends are Preterists; I'm well versed.

I welcome your opinions. However, I don't want to get the discussion dispersed across threads. I've already posted my reasons, and I haven't heard any rebuttal from you. Instead, you want me to read your view and figure out how that rebuts my view?

Let me just take a guess--you think that because Christ fulfilled the Law and the temple at his death that no NT prophecy can involve the physical temple, including its destruction in 70 AD? If that's what you think, it wouldn't make sense to me, because Jesus specifically said this would happen as a *punishment* to the Jewish People for not properly obeying God. If they had properly followed the Law they would've accepted Christ's death for their sins, and there would've been no further need to make sacrifices on the altar in Jerusalem.

Jesus said the temple had become hypocritical and was about to be torn down. Knowing that many Jews were ignorant of what they were doing he was not willing to destroy the temple and Jerusalem immediately. He gave time for the Gospel to be preached as a continuing warning to them. But he knew they wouldn't listen, and so prophesied that it would all be torn down.

Since this is what the Olivet Discourse records, no amount of logic can render this otherwise, in my opinion. It says what it says. None of this takes away from the fact Jesus was the true heavenly temple, and the fulfillment of the Law.

[JoshuaStone7]

However, I don't want to get the discussion dispersed across threads.

That's why I directed you away from my Thread here on chronology to the Thread on Preterism vs. futurist.

Response: The Temple Sanctuary

[JoshuaStone7]

The 2300 days of Daniel 8 end on the 1335th day of Daniel 12, the first day of the cleansed kingdom.

“And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.” Dan 8:14

“Happy is the one who waits for and reaches 1,335 days.” Dan 12:12

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The 2300 days begin while the Daily Sacrifice is still in place; however, there is transgression/apostasy within the courtyard of God’s people. To enter the courtyard, one had to pass through the curtain of red, blue, and purple, representing the blood, loyalty, and royalty of our Lord Christ Jesus. The white curtains surrounding the courtyard represented the cleansing of one’s robe’s from sin through the offering upon the Altar of Burnt Sacrifice within.

In the time of the end, the apostasy comes first while the daily sacrifice is still in place.

“For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” Dan 8:13

“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first,” 2Th 2:3

The mark of the beast in Rev 13 represents apostasy from God. The mark of a man represents Solomon and his apostasy from God later in life by collecting more to himself than God commanded.

“The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,” 2Chro 9:” 3

This 666 number also represents apostasy in Daniel 3, with its image measuring 60x6x6. The three faithful friends of Daniel refused to worship the image and then passed through the fire unharmed.

“King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, sixty cubits high and six cubits wide, and set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon.” Dan 3:1

The two-horned beast of Rev 13 was depicted as apostasy in the wilderness after the Exodus from Egypt. The Israelites erected a two-horned calf when rebelling at the mount of Saini.

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The buying and selling of Rev 13 are spiritual and do not represent physical buying and selling, and we know this because our Lord Christ Jesus told us as much in that same book.

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.” Rev 3:18

May we pass through and be refined by the fire rather than take upon ourselves the mark of the beast in apostasy.

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So then, after Jesus fulfilled the lamb sacrifice within the courtyard once for all, what were the “continual sacrifices” that would be removed at a later date? They were the sacrifices of praise.

“Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.” Heb 13:15,16

Today's daily sacrifice represents the open professing of God’s name through our sacrifice of praise.

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After the 2300 days begin when the transgression/apostasy is seen alongside the daily sacrifice, the courtyard is trampled on for 42 months/1260 days.

“They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:2,3

Beginning these 1260 days, the professing of God’s name is removed because of apostasy. Throughout the minor prophets, God warned His people about their ways, and this will be the time of discipline. The Holy Place (elect) is not attacked yet, but only the courtyard where everyone presents their sacrifice of praise before God.

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The two witnesses no longer preach in sackcloth (a sign of mourning of the removal of the daily sacrifice) at the end of the 1260 days. The courtyard at that time is rebuilt. The holy place/elect is attacked thirty days later at the 1290th day.

After the two witnesses are resurrected before all mankind, the wild beast will believe if they come against the remaining elect, God will leave this planet and them alone.

“Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, “Let's break their chains and throw off their shackles.” Psm 2:1-3

Then YHWH will laugh at them.

“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” Psm 2:4-6

Then Jesus appears in the clouds to gather the elect.

Joshua

[journeyman]

I'm not sure what the question pertains to, but in this immediate context, the difference would be between the Antichrist and those who have a spirit of anti-Christ. Their ultimate destination is the same, sure, but if we accept that there will be a distinct figure satisfying the role of the AntiChrist, who we'll call Damien, then the lives these people live and the impact these people will have in the world will be in the same vein as Damien's, who will be degrees of worse.

What's worse, one man being persecuted, or one million men being persecuted?

Or maybe there is no Damien and Gregory Peck is just an excellent actor.

Yeah, he was great in To Kill A Mockingbird.

[RandyPNW]

However, I don't want to get the discussion dispersed across threads.

That's why I directed you away from my Thread here on chronology to the Thread on Preterism vs. futurist.

Response: The Temple Sanctuary

I ended up answering you anyway. Didn't you read that?
Chronology #25