King of the North and King of the South.

[RabbiKnife]

I don’t think it necessarily follows that “what God doesn’t say doesn’t belong to Him”

Scripture doesn’t necessarily tell all that God says

[Redeemed]

I would've developed a better way of sharing this, more concisely and with more precision, if more people were interested and if they weren't often so hostile to it. Perhaps if others were more courageous about addressing it, they would've helped me to improve it, correct it, or disprove it entirely? Thanks for weighing in yourself.

I didn't quote your entire post because, why waste space? This should do though.

I find this incredibly interesting as it is pretty much the opposite of the way I and most of the Christians I converse with operate.
I and others turn to the scriptures first to see what God has to say about something and then bounce our understanding of what we think is revealed off of others to "get to the bottom of the truth."
I don't think that any doctrines etc are above questioning if the questioning is based upon or motivated by developing a better understanding. Questions lead to a better understanding and are essential to learning and growing.

The answers to the questions must be rooted in Scripture though.

[RandyPNW]

I don’t think it necessarily follows that “what God doesn’t say doesn’t belong to Him”

Scripture doesn’t necessarily tell all that God says

It's impossible for us mortals to know *all* that God says! That doesn't mean we can't identify what is true and what is false, with respect to God's word. Obviously, what He says must happen must happen. What He doesn't say obviously does not have the support of the Creator behind it, and the results will show up accordingly.

If God predetermined to have X number of people fill the earth and express His image, and they have free choice, they may initially fail, but ultimately, God will redeem the situation, and there will be X number of people filling the earth with God's image. If Man uses his free will to operate in the creative capacities he was given to reproduce, but does not rely on God's word in his life, the result will be the reproduction of children who are disinclined to follow God's word, who are "turned off" by the idea of expressing God's image completely in all the earth.

They most certainly will have inherited some characteristics associated with the 1st Man, created in the image of God. They will choose to do some good, to express God as their creator. But they will also choose to follow Adam's wish to make choices independent of God's word. And they will wish to remain outside of the plan of redemption, and reject being among the X number of people chosen to be redeemed and returned to the original glory they were called to.

For this reason, I believe all of mankind has this problem with independent judgment, and incline towards rebellion against God's word. But inasmuch as God's word is true, He will still have X number of people saved through His redemption process.

And we will also see those outside of those X number of people who not only incline towards rebellion, but who also wish to continue doing good sometimes and at other times rebelling against God. But they don't wish to be numbered with the X number of people chosen by God to fill the earth with His glory.

Instead, they dislike that glory, because it represents redemption that leads to a complete turnabout, rather than continue on the course of independent judgment.

[RandyPNW]

I would've developed a better way of sharing this, more concisely and with more precision, if more people were interested and if they weren't often so hostile to it. Perhaps if others were more courageous about addressing it, they would've helped me to improve it, correct it, or disprove it entirely? Thanks for weighing in yourself.

I didn't quote your entire post because, why waste space? This should do though.

I find this incredibly interesting as it is pretty much the opposite of the way I and most of the Christians I converse with operate.
I and others turn to the scriptures first to see what God has to say about something and then bounce our understanding of what we think is revealed off of others to "get to the bottom of the truth."
I don't think that any doctrines etc are above questioning if the questioning is based upon or motivated by developing a better understanding. Questions lead to a better understanding and are essential to learning and growing.

The answers to the questions must be rooted in Scripture though.

Thanks brother. I can always tell when a brother or sister is a "child of God." It isn't even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing on various beliefs. Much more, it is a common love for our Creator, and the wish to serve Him always.

[ross3421]

 Now just who are they?

 Dan 11:40  And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41  He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42  He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43  But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44  But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Col

the only 2 biblically would be the two houses of israel.  though at the end 4 counterfeit kings north, south, east, west(four beasts of satan) shall rule the earth with the a king in control.   notice the first beast of rev has 10 and the second has 2 horns both become one

[Oseas]

Looks like the enddays king of the south extends all the way to the USA and friends--

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Col

Hate to disappoint you, but the USA is not any where in Scripture.

No??
Rev 18:7  How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8  Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 18:9  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

USA is not neither a great nor a small city, your speculations, imaginations, presumptions, and conjectures, and your own opinion have nothing to do with Scriptures you have posted trying to make True what is not true, trying to make sweet, what is bitter.

[RabbiKnife]

I’ll repeat it clearly

The united state of America is not in scripture, especially not in the book of revelation

Your dispensationalism theology tells you it is without any basis in fact or text whatsoever

[Fenris]

It seems pretty common fare amongst commentaries, Christian and otherwise, that the four kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. This is not a prophecy of some far future event, for us it is already in the distant past.

[RandyPNW]

It seems pretty common fare amongst commentaries, Christian and otherwise, that the four kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. This is not a prophecy of some far future event, for us it is already in the distant past.

I agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say. To read back into ancient prophecies certain future events is an exercise in futility in many cases. To fasten the "666" label to political leaders we don't like is in this genre, in my opinion.

And I agree that the US is not specifically designated in biblical prophecy. There was no US in the time the prophecies were written, nor do they anticipate that there will be a US (that I know of).

However, in my particular eschatology, I interpret the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 to be Roman Civilization, advancing into European Civilization. And this would, of course, include the US. As you most likely feel, I'm hoping the US does not commit to any form of European Anti-Semitism or Anti-Christianity, which is what I think the 4th Beast represents.

[Athanasius]

...I'm hoping the US does not commit to any form of European Anti-Semitism or Anti-Christianity, which is what I think the 4th Beast represents.

If the question were posed in the 1930s upon hearing of Hitler's genocide and the US' deportation or refusal to let Jews into the country, what would you have thought then? Never mind the US' treatment at the time of Japanese Americans, those who are same-sex attracted, secret government experimentation on the poor and minority groups, etc.? These things taken together seem very much to be anti-Christian if by anti-Christian we mean contrary to the teaching of Christ.

So why not go all the way with your view? It wouldn't be hard to argue that the US already fits the description.

[RabbiKnife]

Or maybe, just maybe, the Apocalypse is historical until the last two chapters at best, and perhaps those two chapters describe the spiritual reality of what has already occurred in the heavenlies, and we await only the consummation of the age.

[Fenris]

I agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say. To read back into ancient prophecies certain future events is an exercise in futility in many cases.

I think (And RK would agree with me) that too many times people take an ancient prophecy, already fulfilled long ago, and somehow try to make it apply to some future event. The four kingdoms is a great example, as I mentioned above. Or prophecy of the desolation of Judah, already fulfilled in 586BC but "Israel must be punished" so it is made to refer to some future punishment. Of course this means ignoring all the prophecies of the redemption of Zion, which is now spiritualized and made to refer to something else.

And the core, all this hand wringing and worry seems to me to portray a distinct lack of trust in God. God loves us and is going to look out for us, so "let not your heart be troubled".

[RabbiKnife]

OK, glad I had just swallowed that coffee...

When my dear orthodox Jewish retired NY LEO studying rabbinically friend quotes Jesus to Christians, in context, I engaging in, to quote the KJV 1611, "spew[ing] out of my mouth."

OK, that was legendary.  A quote to John 14 and the promise of God's provision for eternity, no less!!!


https://giphy.com/clips/AC-GIPHY-6bJaVXMavwUTGZHFzf

[Fenris]

When my dear orthodox Jewish retired NY LEO studying rabbinically friend quotes Jesus to Christians, in context, I engaging in, to quote the KJV 1611, "spew[ing] out of my mouth."

OK, that was legendary.  A quote to John 14 and the promise of God's provision for eternity, no less!!!

Thank you for the compliment. We aim to please 

[ross3421]

I’ll repeat it clearly

The united state of America is not in scripture, especially not in the book of revelation

Your dispensationalism theology tells you it is without any basis in fact or text whatsoever

you are correct.  however the truth appears to be what one believes so if all the world beileves nyc in babylon then when nyc is destryed in the near future then the world will think it is babylon.  just as satan wants......