Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[journeyman]

While I can understand what you just said, it does not relate to how the persecution that man inflicts against, Jesus... will save the sinner.

Slug,
People aren't saved "by inflicting persecution against our Savior". They're saved by repenting of inflicting persecution against Jesus, against God on earth. When the Bible says, "by his stripes we are healed", it's because he suffered injustice without destroying those against him. He's compassionate as his Father is. And Christians who follow hiim  are also compassionate toward those who hate them. We're being formed into his image.

The only conclusion possible to settle on, based on all you say (your interpretation/theology), is that what man did to Jesus, is the required punishment (killing of Jesus) to appease God, so that sinners can be saved.

Thus, this is a works based theology at the core.

No my friend. God was appeased by the steadfastness of his Son under immense abuse,

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb.12:3

You are only focused on "persecution" of Christ by man. You are resisting the element of "wrath" requirement dealing with propitiation. Mans persecution (man can't execute wrath), man's love, man's worship, etc... can't and never can, appease God. He will punish sin if sin is found in a person who is before Him.

God's wrath however DID execute a final punishment against sin... against His Son (became like sin), this action by God is all that can appease Him... so that man can be reconciled with Him.

God's wrath against sin, Jesus in that moment of hanging on the Cross.

I'll get to your other part once if we can get past this part.

I never said God is pleased by the wrath of men. The final wrath against sin will occur before the judgement seat of Christ.

[Slug1]

No my friend. God was appeased by the steadfastness of his Son under immense abuse,

You are still isolating verses in a manner that opposes the Gospel message. God is appeased due to the fact that His "wrath" against the sin of the world, is appeased in Jesus.

[RabbiKnife]

[/quote]I never said God is pleased by the wrath of men. The final wrath against sin will occur before the judgement seat of Christ.
[/quote]

Do you believe that sinners pay the penalty for their sin in hell?

[journeyman]

You are still isolating verses and thus, oppose the Gospel message. God is appeased due to the fact that His "wrath" against the sin of the world, is appeased in Jesus.

Gods wrath is appeased in Jesus.....because Jesus.....God in flesh.....
didn't pour his wrath out on those who hurt him,

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiationthrough faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God Rom.3:25

See the scriptures this way and they all come perfectly into place.

[journeyman]

Do you believe that sinners pay the penalty for their sin in hell?

I believe God's wrath falls on the unrepentant.

[Slug1]

Gods wrath is appeased in Jesus.....because Jesus.....God in flesh.....
didn't pour his wrath out on those who hurt him,

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiationthrough faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God Rom.3:25

See the scriptures this way and they all come perfectly into place.

I agree that scriptures come perfectly into place. This leads to a question: What does the "in His blood" mean for your theology?


You still seem to resist that "propitiation" is about executed wrath for the purpose of appeasing punishment that is due. All you say, avoids this truth.


Edit: You keep saying that propitiation is due to Jesus NOT punishing sinners but this avoids the Gospel's message which reveals it is His DEATH, that is the propitiation. Mercy is not an element of the cause of propitiation, you however say it is. Mercy is the result/product, AFTER there is propitiation. Thus my question concerning Christ's blood.

[RabbiKnife]

Do you believe that sinners pay the penalty for their sin in hell?

I believe God's wrath falls on the unrepentant.

Yeah, that's not what the Bible says.

1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

See also Isaiah 53, 1 John 4, Romans 5

God's wrath is fully satisfied.  See, if you believe that sinners can pay for their sin in hell, that they suffer God's wrath, then that means that God's wrath can never be satisfied, because eternity in hell never ends.

God's wrath is fully satisified, and it was satisfied in the willing sacrifice of Jesus as the only once and for all sacrifice in propitiation for our sin... All sin.  Sin has no power.  It is finished.  It is paid for.  God has no wrath for sin remaining.  Jesus took it all.  The just for the unjust.

[journeyman]

I agree that scriptures come perfectly into place. This leads to a question: What does the "in His blood" mean for your theology?

"In his blood" means, in his life,

the life thereof, which is the blood thereof Gen.9:4

You still seem to resist that "propitiation" is about executed wrath for the purpose of appeasing punishment that is due. All you say, avoids this truth.

Propitiation is the opposite of what you just said. It's about avoiding the wrath of God (the Lamb).

Edit: You keep saying that propitiation is due to Jesus NOT punishing sinners but this avoids the Gospel's message which reveals it is His DEATH, that is the propitiation. Mercy is not an element of the cause of propitiation, you however say it is. Mercy is the result/product, AFTER there is propitiation. Thus my question concerning Christ's blood.

Our Lord's death occured as the result of him delaying judgement. Though stronger than his enemies, he gives sinners time, with all longsuffering, to repent. That's mercy, so you're wrong.

[journeyman]

Yeah, that's not what the Bible says.

1 Peter 3:18:  For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

For Christ also? What does he mean by "also"? Read the verse before it.

[Slug1]

Propitiation is the opposite of what you just said. It's about avoiding the wrath of God (the Lamb).

Negative, propitiation is not about avoiding wrath, it's is about wrath's completion, thus producing appeasement.

Even believers would not be able to avoid God's wrath but God's wrath at them (due to sin), was inflicted upon someone who "replaced" them (took their "due" wrath). This is also understood as a believer is "covered" or "bought" by the person who received ALL their (due) wrath. Jesus "paid" for their sin by becoming sin and received ALL the punishment (that they were due), He is a believers propitiation.

[journeyman]

Negative, propitiation is not about avoiding wrath, it's is about wrath's completion, thus producing appeasement.

No it isn't, because the completion of God's wrath is here,

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. Rev.15:1

God doesn't pour his wrath out on the repentant, but on the unrepentant, because,

Say to them: ‘As I live,' says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?' Eze.33:11

I
Even believers would not be able to avoid God's wrath but God's wrath at them (due to sin), was inflicted upon someone who "replaced" them (took their "due" wrath). This is also understood as a believer is "covered" or "bought" by the person who received ALL their (due) wrath. Jesus "paid" for their sin by becoming sin and received ALL the punishment (that they were due), He is a believers propitiation.

I've already proven from scripture how God bought people by the price his Son paid, but you ignored it. I've already proven from scripture that God doesn't accept the life of one person in place of another, but you ignored it.

[Slug1]

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. Rev.15:1

Brother, I stopped here because you again, isolate a scripture so you can remove the context and apply a meaning. You show me nothing except the fact that you are unwilling to apply context in a proper manner. If you were to apply the proper context to this verse, it is about "future" events during a time referred to as the Great Tribulation.

Now, I have found some studies and side with some of the studies in how the term for "plague"  is applied as God's punishment being "stripes" and then the application of how Jesus took the stripes of punishment according to Isaiah 53. So if you want to go there, let me know. I'd love to because I have found in the past, that when a theology is erred, many of the very verses pushed forward from the theology that are OUT of context, when context is applied, they will find how the theology is in error.

[journeyman]

Brother, I stopped here because you again, isolate a scripture so you can remove the context and apply a meaning. You show me nothing except the fact that you are unwilling to apply context in a proper manner. If you were to apply the proper context to this verse, it is about "future" events during a time referred to as the Great Tribulation.

What scripture shows is that God pours his wrath is complete by pouring his wrath out on this world, not on his Son.

Now, I have found some studies and side with some of the studies in how the term for "plague"  is applied as God's punishment being "stripes" and then the application of how Jesus took the stripes of punishment according to Isaiah 53. So if you want to go there, let me know. I'd love to because I have found in the past, that when a theology is erred, many of the very verses pushed forward from the theology that are OUT of context, when context is applied, they will find how the theology is in error.

I've already proven by the scriptures how the stripes spoken of in Isa.53 should be seen as correction which every son (including the only begotten  Son) receives from the Father. The correction we receive is to teach us how God through his Son loved mankind despite the miserable way he was treated. In fact, he was seen as deserving of death by sinners, not by his Father,

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pet.4:14

[Pbminimum]

Do you believe that sinners pay the penalty for their sin in hell?

I believe God's wrath falls on the unrepentant.

And why does it ? Because God's wrath falls on sin and sinners. Of which Christ became on our behalf.

[journeyman]

[And why does it ? Because God's wrath falls on sin and sinners.

That's justice.

Of which Christ became on our behalf.

That's what they said,

Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24

And since Jesus was lied against and spit on and all the other terrible sins he bore without pouring his wrath out on God haters, the scriptures say,

he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa.53:12