Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[RandyPNW]

And I suppose you think *you're* that person? You don't appear to be very mature to me.

Well, our Lord warned about false teachers and I was taught things for many years that weren't true. In prayer, I asked God if he poured his wrath out on his Son and the response I got was, "No, mankind did". Shortly after this, I met a Jewish believer in Jesus who corrected me.

So, you change your biblical beliefs for *one person?" I think it likely that person helped you understand a single aspect of the atonement, and this caused you to dump the entire doctrine of atonement.

Our Lord taught repentance, not replacement.

False, the Lord taught repentance *in the name of Jesus,* which refers to the necessity of his atonement. His work was essential. Repentance is based on his essential work of atonement. That is true Christianity--not repentance without atonement.

Well, I would be in the realm of heresy if I said God through Christ didn't suffer for us, but that's not what I said. What I did say is....God doesn't punish himself. It's mankind that punished God through Christ and although God is willing to forgive, he also came into this world for judgement.

Christian orthodoxy is not based exclusively on the fact that Christ suffered on the cross. This is just a fact of history, just as many Jews and Christians were hung on crosses by the Romans.

What makes for doctrinal orthodoxy is the fact that when Jesus died on the cross he not only suffered the sins of men but he also assumed the place where suffering those sins he could forgive those sins. As the Son of God he held divine authority to forgive what men had done to him. That's what constitutes atonement--not just a simple historical fact, indicating he suffered human abuse.

Denying the essential nature of Christ's forgiveness of what was done to him is what constitutes heresy. Just saying he suffered and died on the cross is not what makes doctrinal orthodoxy.

As far as I know, nobody has said Christian martyrs were cursed by God?

So not everyone who is hanged on a tree is cursed of God. Some Christians were crucified for following Jesus, who was also not cursed of God.

You are giving a false equivalency between Christ and Christians. Both bear the curse of death innocently, but only Christ was sinless. As such, he bore the curse *for us!*

No, what God shows through his Son is how this world despised him. God didn't need to be abused to forgive. He does need to be asked for forgivness and I already showed that Jesus forgave people who came to him.

Again, this is heretical. God did need to suffer abuse from men in order to forgive them. That's the basis of redemption, God forgiving what was done to Him physically, through the suffering and death of Christ.

Jesus' offering forgiveness did not bring eternal redemption until *after the cross.* This is true Christian orthodoxy. You need to admit that you are not orthodox in your Christian beliefs!

You seem to give too much credit to your Jewish friend, perhaps thinking he, as a Jew, holds the key to truth that Christians were unable to comprehend because they were not Jews? But true orthodoxy is based on the Jewish apostles! And their doctrine is *not* what your Jewish friend taught you!

Nobody is denying the need for repentance. What Christian orthodoxy requires is that we repent based on an acknowledgment of the necessity of Christ's atonement. In this way we acknowledge that all our "flesh" must be disposed of *by the power of God* and not by our own works.

We are free to live in the free gift of God's Spirit when we acknowledge that redemption was something only he could do. Thus, we must look to him for spirituality in all we do.

[RabbiKnife]

God will never say anything in response to "prayer," that is contradictory of the revealed Word.

"No Scripture is of private interpretation," yet that is exactly what a subjective interpretation of a "word from God" is.

[RandyPNW]

You're being dishonest, brother. You said what you said. You just refuse to own it. But that's between you and God. It's best to be honest about it, but I can get past it, if you stop suggesting that those *here* who don't believe what you say "don't know God."

What I said was people here don't understand our Lord's suffering was the consequence of sin, that is, sinners inflicting pain on him. Then I cited a passage proving it.

I'll defer to Slug, who originated the point. He indicated that we all acknowledge Jesus suffered the consequences of human abuse. So your claim that we don't "know God" is groundless, as I see it.

[RandyPNW]

God will never say anything in response to "prayer," that is contradictory of the revealed Word.

"No Scripture is of private interpretation," yet that is exactly what a subjective interpretation of a "word from God" is.

That's true. But what point specifically are you responding to?

[Slug1]

God will never say anything in response to "prayer," that is contradictory of the revealed Word.

"No Scripture is of private interpretation," yet that is exactly what a subjective interpretation of a "word from God" is.

Can be a subjective or even an objective discussion about this too. Example, praying to God for any of the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12. Personal theology (subjectively) can actually dictate the legitimacy of such a prayer, let alone how/should God answer. And if He does answer and the answer is "yes" and the person who prays begins to be used by God and thus, edifies the Body of Christ per Paul's lesson to us all (1 Cor 12-14)... do we respond to what God is doing by amending theology, if we subjectively believe (due to theology), the gifts have ended?

When God defies our theology, our personal interpretation of scripture (subjectively), what then?

I know many brethren stuck in their own box, while God works in defiance to what they hold too, in that box. Objectively, God is never put in a box :-)

[journeyman]

You'll find in post #11, I stated the following:

You are correct, in that a wage of sin is the death of Christ, and also the persecution of those who have put faith in Him.

The wages of sin is the death of the sinner, not the death of the innocent. Our Lord died for serving his Father,

They repay me evil for good, and hatred for my friendship. Psa.109:5

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25

The posting of that half a verse only reveals why Christ's death happens (is actually necessary) and also why, those who believe in Him will be persecuted for their faith in Him.

The death of our Savior shows the love of God to the uttermost, continuing to love people while enduring terrible abuse, but he and his Father forgave sinners before this,

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41

Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:31-32

However, your posting of that half verse does NOT answer this specific question:

What "is" the reason WHY, others here don't understand the death of Christ, is a consequence of sin??

I told you when I said,

But as far as not knowing the consequence of sin where Christ is concerned, you don't know what it means, but neither did I, being indoctrinated with false teaching for many years. Post 244

And when God sent a dear believer to correct me, I argued with him for months. I didn't look at the scriptures he showed me. I simply ignored them, repearing the dogma I was conditioned by and that's what's happening here, but once I actually dealt directly with the scriptures I was being shown, instead of posting scripture that seemed contradictory, everything fell iperfectly nto place.

But you're right about citing partial scripture, where the true meaning gets lost. Even Paul saying Jesus became a curse for us is a good example that. Look closely at the OT passage he's referring to. He isn't saying Jesus was accursed by God. He's saying Jesus was thought by to be accursed by the religious leaders who condemned him,

He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa.22:8, Mt.27:43

In other words, he's accursed of God.

[journeyman]

So, you change your biblical beliefs for *one person?"

He's not the only one, but I've heard this objection before. Fortunately, the Bible often shows how the minority is right and the majority wrong. And people who think what happened to the scribes understanding of the scriptures couldn't happen to church authority better think again.

False, the Lord taught repentance *in the name of Jesus,* which refers to the necessity of his atonement. His work was essential. Repentance is based on his essential work of atonement. That is true Christianity--not repentance without atonement.

Well Randy, the suffering of Christ is the greatest example of how people have sinned against God, but God forgave sins without suffering in the flesh and not "temporarily" as you assert.

Christian orthodoxy is not based exclusively on the fact that Christ suffered on the cross. This is just a fact of history, just as many Jews and Christians were hung on crosses by the Romans.

What makes for doctrinal orthodoxy is the fact that when Jesus died on the cross he not only suffered the sins of men but he also assumed the place where suffering those sins he could forgive those sins. As the Son of God he held divine authority to forgive what men had done to him. That's what constitutes atonement--not just a simple historical fact, indicating he suffered human abuse.

Denying the essential nature of Christ's forgiveness of what was done to him is what constitutes heresy. Just saying he suffered and died on the cross is not what makes doctrinal orthodoxy.

It goes without saying that to forgive, an offence had to occur. The point is, Jesus was never accursed of God.

You are giving a false equivalency between Christ and Christians. Both bear the curse of death innocently, but only Christ was sinless. As such, he bore the curse *for us!*

An innocent person is under no curse, so you're wrong. People can wrongfully imagine that someone is being cursed by God and that's what you don't get.

Again, this is heretical. God did need to suffer abuse from men in order to forgive them. That's the basis of redemption, God forgiving what was done to Him physically, through the suffering and death of Christ.

Jesus' offering forgiveness did not bring eternal redemption until *after the cross.* This is true Christian orthodoxy. You need to admit that you are not orthodox in your Christian beliefs!

You seem to give too much credit to your Jewish friend, perhaps thinking he, as a Jew, holds the key to truth that Christians were unable to comprehend because they were not Jews? But true orthodoxy is based on the Jewish apostles! And their doctrine is *not* what your Jewish friend taught you!

Nobody is denying the need for repentance. What Christian orthodoxy requires is that we repent based on an acknowledgment of the necessity of Christ's atonement. In this way we acknowledge that all our "flesh" must be disposed of *by the power of God* and not by our own works.

We are free to live in the free gift of God's Spirit when we acknowledge that redemption was something only he could do. Thus, we must look to him for spirituality in all we do.

God didn't need to be murdered as a man before he could forgive sin,

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:17

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice Mt.9:13

[journeyman]

your claim that we don't "know God"

I never said this.

[RandyPNW]

your claim that we don't "know God"

I never said this.

In post #247 you said this:

It seems others here don't understand that putting an innocent man to death is "the consequence of sin".

It also seems that when Paul says,

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12

Others here don't understand it's "the consequence of sin".

because they have not known the Father, nor me. Jn.16:3

So the question is, who are those "others here" who "don't understand it's "the consequence of sin?" You quote Jesus as saying these, who you think "don't understand," "have not known the Father, nor me."

Then you must've been referring to non-believers here?
1) All Christians here understand that putting an innocent man to death is the consequence of sin.
2) All Christians here understand that the godly in Christ Jesus suffer the consequences of sin by others.

So perhaps I misunderstood, thinking you were accusing Christians of not knowing the Father?

[journeyman]

In post #247 you said this:

It seems others here don't understand that putting an innocent man to death is "the consequence of sin".

It also seems that when Paul says,

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12

Others here don't understand it's "the consequence of sin".

because they have not known the Father, nor me. Jn.16:3

So the question is, who are those "others here" who "don't understand it's "the consequence of sin?"

Right here,

RabbiKnife said,
Jesus became sin....He willingly, literally, became the substance of sin....post 4

This isn't true.

Slug1 said,
Christ took on all (became the) sin of the world, post 5

This isn't true.

You quote Jesus as saying these, who you think "don't understand," "have not known the Father, nor me."

Then you must've been referring to non-believers here?

In citing that passage, I wasn't referring to anyone here. I was proving that Jesus suffered because he was literally God, not literally sin.

1) All Christians here understand that putting an innocent man to death is the consequence of sin.

It's an act of sin, so when you say,

Christ, in suffering punishment and death from both God and men...

That's not true, because God doesn't commit sin.

2) All Christians here understand that the godly in Christ Jesus suffer the consequences of sin by others.

And when I pointed this out, you said,

You are giving a false equivalency between Christ and Christians. post 12

I never said Christians are sinless. I showed how believers suffer as our Lord did. And Jesus made that equivalency, not me.

So perhaps I misunderstood, thinking you were accusing Christians of not knowing the Father?

You're just not listening. I didn't either for a long time. We've all been brainwashed with the idea that God punished his Son for the sins we committed. We better wake up.

[RabbiKnife]

1 Cor 5:21:

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Please explain that away.

I'll wait. 

Can someone bring me a refill on my gargantuan popcorn bucket?

[RandyPNW]

So, you change your biblical beliefs for *one person?"

He's not the only one, but I've heard this objection before. Fortunately, the Bible often shows how the minority is right and the majority wrong. And people who think what happened to the scribes understanding of the scriptures couldn't happen to church authority better think again.

You don't need a democratic count--you need proof from the Scriptures. A majority of conservative Christians agree on what heresy is. The "minority" are not to be trusted.

Your view is clearly in the minority, doctrine-wise. You should not trust your friend. He's spouting heresy. He thinks he can explain Jesus' death as something less than divine redemption.

Just an act of forgiveness is less than eternal redemption. Many have been forgiven without receiving eternal life. Final redemption requires final atonement. And that requires more than mere forgiveness.

It requires a complete sacrifice, Christ sacrificed to sin, and ourselves sacrificed to Christ. This is in essence the New Birth--a complete offering to God with a completely new life in Christ.

Well Randy, the suffering of Christ is the greatest example of how people have sinned against God, but God forgave sins without suffering in the flesh and not "temporarily" as you assert.

Again, simple forgiveness did not bring eternal life. Christ's complete sacrifice to sin did, along with our choice to completely sacrifice ourselves to him, spiritually.

It goes without saying that to forgive, an offence had to occur. The point is, Jesus was never accursed of God.

The Bible does *not* say that men solely viewed Jesus as cursed of God, which of course they did. More, it said that Jesus assumed the form of a curse by sacrificing himself to sin.

Nobody is saying that Jesus himself was cursed as a sinner--he was sinless. In saying he "became a curse" Christians, of the orthodox variety, say that Jesus actually was sacrificed to sin, and not *as a sinner.*

What you seem think is a big revelation is purely simplistic. Everybody knows Jesus did not die a sinner! In saying he "became a curse" it is being said that he "took the place of us, who are sinners."

An innocent person is under no curse, so you're wrong. People can wrongfully imagine that someone is being cursed by God and that's what you don't get.

Again, you're being simplistic. Everybody knows that a person is not cursed for doing right! That is a truism!

What is being said is that Jesus positioned himself to suffer *as if he was a sinner!* You simply deny that when that is exactly what the Bible says! Jesus was not pretending to be a sinner, but rather, chose to take the punishment of a sinner.

He chose to take the abuse of sinners that they direct at God Himself. People are often the victims of this "hatred for God" by men. So in Jesus' case, he took on this victimhood from men who hate God in order to forgive them.

We are free to live in the free gift of God's Spirit when we acknowledge that redemption was something only he could do. Thus, we must look to him for spirituality in all we do.

God didn't need to be murdered as a man before he could forgive sin,

I never said he did. My claim is that eternal life is received not purely by forgiveness from God, but more by casting ourselves upon the mercy of God, who showed us that our dependence must be completely on Christ, who cast aside all of the ways of men. If we repent and still sin, how can we obtain eternal life, unless it be by a universal act of atonement?

[journeyman]

This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Jn.9:16
we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24
He hath spoken blasphemy...He is guilty and deserves death Mt.26:65-66
If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. Jn.18:30
God made him who had no sin to be sin...2Cor:5:21
And with him they crucify two thieves...And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. Mk.15:27-28

[RandyPNW]

This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Jn.9:16
we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24
He hath spoken blasphemy...He is guilty and deserves death Mt.26:65-66
If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. Jn.18:30
God made him who had no sin to be sin...2Cor:5:21
And with him they crucify two thieves...And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. Mk.15:27-28

Nobody is denying that ungodly Jews and others accused Jesus of being a sinner punished by God. But that isn't what is meant by Jesus "being made sin."

He was put in the place where sinners are punished, even though he did not sin, so that he could feel the hostility men have for God. Then he qualified himself to forgiven that sin, having actually experienced it physically.

This is what "being made sin" means. It means to assume the place of the punished sinner, even though he was not a sinner.

This had nothing to do with others seeing him as a sinner. It had to do with his choice to take the position of a sinner under judgment from God.

This is the nature of the atonement that Jesus made himself to be, so that when he forgave us our repentance could result in our receiving eternal life. Without the atonement, our forgiveness lacks the luster to be acceptable to God. It is only *in Christ* that our works gleam with the work of Christ, which is in fact acceptable to God.

When we receive the life of Christ from him as our atonement, we not only receive forgiveness but we receive his eternal life. Forgiveness without the atonement falls short of Jesus' life.

It is the merry go round of forgiveness, another sin, another repentance, and another apology. That never can result in eternal life unless our life is completely turned over to his life. It is his atoning works, and not something we can accomplish on our own.

[journeyman]

that isn't what is meant by Jesus "being made sin."

The only way to regard an innocent man as sin, is to bear false witness against him.

....so that he could feel the hostility men have for God. Then he qualified himself....

Our Lord knew all things before he was born on earth and didn't need to be qualified for anything.

...to take the position of a sinner under judgment from God.

An innocent isn't under God's judgement. Only the guilty are.

....so that when he forgave us our repentance could result in our receiving eternal life.

Cart before the horse. Repentant heart first, then forgivness.

When we receive the life of Christ from him as our atonement, we not only receive forgiveness but we receive his eternal life. Forgiveness without the atonement falls short of Jesus' life.

I don't think you understand that in appeasing God, the Son appeased himself.

It is the merry go round of forgiveness, another sin, another repentance, and another apology. That never can result in eternal life unless our life is completely turned over to his life. It is his atoning works, and not something we can accomplish on our own.

Believers should be growing in the knowledge of the Lord. Atonement is being reconciled to God. And how are people reconciled?