the great Jewish "distress"

[RandyPNW]

I continue to have a huge problem getting Christians to acknowledge the obvious, that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus focused not on the 2nd Coming as much as on the judgment to come against Israel in his own generation, and that Israel would go through a period of "great tribulation" from 70 AD, when the temple would be destroyed, to the end of the age. We call this the "Jewish Diaspora." Very few seem to be willing to acknowledge this, for the simple reason that modern prophetic circles do not favor that interpretation.

Just to answer your questions--not to settle the matters--I suggest my reasoning follows a general sense from Scriptures that we are not to prognosticate too much about the future, particularly when that may be obscuring what God is telling us to do now.

Deut 18. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Acts 1. 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

There is a tendency, sometimes, for people to want prophecy to be all about distant future events, so as to ignore what God is saying today.

Eze 12. 21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. 25 But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious people, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign Lord .’ ”

And I think this fits well in the context of Jesus' Olivet Discourse in which some may have relegated his warning about the fall of Jerusalem to some distant, future generation, rather than something of immediate consequence, requiring immediate preparation. Jesus' Disciples were looking more to the Messianic coming at the end of the age than to the intervening judgment coming against Jerusalem and Jewish religion. They were looking for Israel's salvation even though Israel was presently ripe for judgment due to their hidden sin.

So I'm not surprised that when Jesus spoke of the fall of the temple that his Disciples immediately looked at a future outcome, as opposed to something more immediate that they had trouble grasping. Jesus clearly said all this would take place, ie the fall of the temple and its preliminary signs, in "this generation." Jesus did not ignore the question about his 2nd Coming, but he seemed to place it in the category of future expectation that provided a larger context, but not an explicit time frame.

Jesus seemed to focus the sense of his coming on a more imminent kind of divine coming in judgment in his own generation, destroying the temple, the city of Jerusalem, and producing an age-long period of judgment for the Jews until the time when Messiah would restore Israel. In the 3 synoptic Gospels, we see the same fall of the temple predicted in "this generation." And all 3 versions produce the exact same order of Jesus' address:

1) The temple will literally be destroyed.
2) Christians will be hated, Israel's religion will "grow cold," ignoring the Gospel testimony, and Jewish believers will have to endure for salvation.
3) The Jewish People will endure great tribulation, an age-long punishment.
4) The Abomination of Desolation, from Dan 9.26-27, or the desolation of the City and the Sanctuary.
5) The Jewish believers will flee to the mountains.
6) The temple will fall in "this generation."

Matt 24. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
...9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again...
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13. 2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” ...
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out....
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
...30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21. 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

I say all this to make the point that the "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matt 24 and Mark 13 are sandwiched between #2 and #5, between the condition of Israel and of the Jewish Church and the need for believers to flee to the mountains. And in Luke 21 Luke uses a reference to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, in place of the "abomination of desolation," again sandwiched between #2 and #5.

This for me positively identifies the AoD with the Roman encirclement of Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. It was after 66 AD that Jewish believers fled to Pella in the mountains. And it was directly before the Romans came to encircle Jerusalem that God found unbelieving Israel to be out of compliance with their covenant with God, their religion growing cold, and their turning to persecute believers in Jesus.

Therefore, this Address is all about a prophetic judgment Jesus was proclaiming against Israel in the same vein that the Prophets before him declared an imminent judgment upon Israel for their sins, when the Babylonians were about to destroy Jerusalem.

[greenonions]

I think the main reason for putting the AoD and tribulation in the future is because Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Jesus' Second Coming "immediately" after the tribulation.

Fleeing was to be so urgent you shouldn't get your clothes (Matthew 24:18). But the Christians had more than one day to get out of Jerusalem. And Pella is not in the mountains. I think it is at the edge of the Jordan Valley.

The word "generation" can also mean people of the same kind or are offspring of the same ancestor in certain cases. For example, Deuteronomy 32 was the Song of Moses predicting what would happen to Israel far into the future.

Deuteronomy 32:5 WEB They have dealt corruptly with him. They are not his children, because of their defect. They are a perverse and crooked generation.

generation (G1074 genea) can definitely mean a group of people born at the same time, but here are other examples that may indicate another meaning, namely children of God and children of the devil (John 8:42-44). The children of the devil will continue to exist until these troubles come upon them at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:34). Afterwards comes the harvest at the end of the age (Matthew 13:30).

Acts 2:40 With many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

Luke 16:8 “His lord commended the dishonest manager because he had done wisely, for the children of this world are, in their own generation, wiser than the children of the light.

Philippians 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without defect in the middle of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world,

[Fenris]

I don't really have a stake in this conversation. But I can't help but point out that saying the time period between 30 and 70 is a "generation" seems like a stretch. The average lifespan at the time was only like 30 years. Few if anyone who heard Jesus speak in life would have been alive by the year 70.

[RandyPNW]

I think the main reason for putting the AoD and tribulation in the future is because Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Jesus' Second Coming "immediately" after the tribulation.

Then I assume you're defining "tribulation" as the 66-70 AD episode? I don't. I define the "great tribulation" as the Jewish "punishment," as Jesus called it, extending from 70 AD to the end of the age. Immediately after this "punishment," the Son of Man will come to rescue the nation Israel from oblivion.

Fleeing was to be so urgent you shouldn't get your clothes (Matthew 24:18). But the Christians had more than one day to get out of Jerusalem. And Pella is not in the mountains. I think it is at the edge of the Jordan Valley.

A couple of points on this. I believe that the time frame for escape by Jewish believers was 3 years. When the Roman Army came initially in 66 AD, and departed, surprisingly, then Christians in Israel had time to assemble their things, navigate through Sabbath laws, and leave.

But as time got closer to the 2nd coming of the Roman Army, there was need for immediate action. Coming down off the housetop was a 1st century phenomenon, and not something practiced in 21st century Israel! And so, there was immediate need to run for the hills.

As to whether there were mountains in the region of Pella or not, I don't know. I've been to Israel, but largely in the area of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. I did notice that "mountains" in Israel were more like "mole hills" to me, living as I do in the Pacific NW. The Rocky Mts. are enormous compared to, say, Mt. Zion or the Mt. of Olives.

The word "generation" can also mean people of the same kind or are offspring of the same ancestor in certain cases. For example, Deuteronomy 32 was the Song of Moses predicting what would happen to Israel far into the future.

Deuteronomy 32:5 WEB They have dealt corruptly with him. They are not his children, because of their defect. They are a perverse and crooked generation.

generation (G1074 genea) can definitely mean a group of people born at the same time, but here are other examples that may indicate another meaning, namely children of God and children of the devil (John 8:42-44). The children of the devil will continue to exist until these troubles come upon them at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:34). Afterwards comes the harvest at the end of the age (Matthew 13:30).

Acts 2:40 With many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

Luke 16:8 “His lord commended the dishonest manager because he had done wisely, for the children of this world are, in their own generation, wiser than the children of the light.

Philippians 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without defect in the middle of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world,

"Generation" can indeed refer to a particular kind of people. But it normally associates the kind of people connected to a particular period in time--a literal generation.

In all of the references Jesus made to the generation rejecting him and about to crucify him, it was clear to me that he was referring to that literal generation. After all, it was in that generation, about 40 years later, that Jerusalem fell, just as Jesus had predicted, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

[RandyPNW]

I don't really have a stake in this conversation. But I can't help but point out that saying the time period between 30 and 70 is a "generation" seems like a stretch. The average lifespan at the time was only like 30 years. Few if anyone who heard Jesus speak in life would have been alive by the year 70.

Yet that is how it is interpreted by the Early Church Fathers, and by the earliest Jewish believers, apparently. They saw no conflict in the account and yet saw that "generation" as a literal period extending from the time the prophecy was given to the time Jerusalem fell.

The Apostle John heard Jesus' Address, and he was still alive when the temple fell. So this is not just a 40 year generation--it is those people's *lifetime* who were still alive at the time Jerusalem fell who were also alive at the time Jesus gave this Address.

[Fenris]

Yet that is how it is interpreted by the Early Church Fathers, and by the earliest Jewish believers, apparently.

I wasn't aware that we have any extant writings aside from that period, aside from the NT itself. Which weirdly enough doesn't mention the fall of Jerusalem.

They saw no conflict in the account and yet saw that "generation" as a literal period extending from the time the prophecy was given to the time Jerusalem fell.

So the word "generation" is any time period that you need it to be.

The Apostle John heard Jesus' Address, and he was still alive when the temple fell.

Yet he seems to have been very long lived. Again if the typical lifespan was only 30 years, almost anyone who who was alive during Jesus's time did not see the temple fall.

[RandyPNW]

Yet that is how it is interpreted by the Early Church Fathers, and by the earliest Jewish believers, apparently.

I wasn't aware that we have any extant writings aside from that period, aside from the NT itself. Which weirdly enough doesn't mention the fall of Jerusalem.

The Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus certainly didn't want to give credit for Jesus for predicting the fall of Jerusalem. It would elevate him to "prophet" status. There may even have been Jews who believe Jesus was a prophet, even though they didn't accept him as Messiah. That may also be true today. I think a lot of Jews would love to strip the "Messiah" name from Jesus and embrace him just as a Jewish Messiah, revising some of what is credited to him.

But the vast number of Church Fathers viewed "generation" as inclusive of the 40 years from Jesus' death to the Fall of Jerusalem. They obviously viewed "generation" as a 70 year period of a man's lifetime.

They saw no conflict in the account and yet saw that "generation" as a literal period extending from the time the prophecy was given to the time Jerusalem fell.

So the word "generation" is any time period that you need it to be.

The Apostle John heard Jesus' Address, and he was still alive when the temple fell.

Yet he seems to have been very long lived. Again if the typical lifespan was only 30 years, almost anyone who who was alive during Jesus's time did not see the temple fall.

Again, we're defining "generation" as a long lifespan, such as in the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, apparently meant to punish an entire generation of Israelis. We're not talking about child-rearing age, for example.

[Fenris]

The Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus certainly didn't want to give credit for Jesus for predicting the fall of Jerusalem. It would elevate him to "prophet" status. There may even have been Jews who believe Jesus was a prophet, even though they didn't accept him as Messiah.

Why would that prevent early Christians from mentioning the fall of Jerusalem in the NT? That makes no sense.

That may also be true today. I think a lot of Jews would love to strip the "Messiah" name from Jesus and embrace him just as a Jewish Messiah, revising some of what is credited to him.

Jews don't see Jesus as any messiah at all, Jewish or otherwise. The messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled.

But the vast number of Church Fathers viewed "generation" as inclusive of the 40 years from Jesus' death to the Fall of Jerusalem. They obviously viewed "generation" as a 70 year period of a man's lifetime.

What's "obvious" to one person isn't obvious at all to another. It seems to me that the word "generation" to you means any period of time that fulfills the timeline of your own personal belief.

Again, we're defining "generation" as a long lifespan, such as in the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, apparently meant to punish an entire generation of Israelis.

You'll have to show me where the Babylonian exile is referred to as lasting one generation.

[RandyPNW]

The Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus certainly didn't want to give credit for Jesus for predicting the fall of Jerusalem. It would elevate him to "prophet" status. There may even have been Jews who believe Jesus was a prophet, even though they didn't accept him as Messiah.

Why would that prevent early Christians from mentioning the fall of Jerusalem in the NT? That makes no sense.

It won't make sense if you think I'm answering a question that wasn't asked. I never said anything prevented early Christians from mentioning the fall of Jerusalem in the NT. Quite simply, most of the NT Scriptures were written *before* the fall of the temple. Some of the history they recorded took place *before* the fall of the temple. Things that were written *after* the fall of the temple did not need recording--the NT Scriptures were not strict histories.

That may also be true today. I think a lot of Jews would love to strip the "Messiah" name from Jesus and embrace him just as a Jewish Messiah, revising some of what is credited to him.

Jews don't see Jesus as any messiah at all, Jewish or otherwise. The messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled.

You keep saying this, but unfortunately for you, it's false. Messianic Jews do exist, as much as you'd like that not to be so. A Jew does not stop being a "Jew" when he chooses to believe Jesus was the Messiah!

But the vast number of Church Fathers viewed "generation" as inclusive of the 40 years from Jesus' death to the Fall of Jerusalem. They obviously viewed "generation" as a 70 year period of a man's lifetime.

What's "obvious" to one person isn't obvious at all to another. It seems to me that the word "generation" to you means any period of time that fulfills the timeline of your own personal belief.

No, I gave you a legitmate definition of a "generation." It is the lifetime of a person, and not strictly the time period indicating "bearing" age.

Again, we're defining "generation" as a long lifespan, such as in the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, apparently meant to punish an entire generation of Israelis.

You'll have to show me where the Babylonian exile is referred to as lasting one generation.

I don't have to show you what is obvious. The 70 year Captivity obviously exterminated virtually all who had been living at the time it began. If you don't want to call this a "generation," that's up to you.

[greenonions]

I think the main reason for putting the AoD and tribulation in the future is because Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Jesus' Second Coming "immediately" after the tribulation.

Then I assume you're defining "tribulation" as the 66-70 AD episode? I don't. I define the "great tribulation" as the Jewish "punishment," as Jesus called it, extending from 70 AD to the end of the age. Immediately after this "punishment," the Son of Man will come to rescue the nation Israel from oblivion.

Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.

It sounds very intense in verse 21. Most of that intensity subsided after AD 70.

AD 70 AD to AD 2021 = 1951 years and counting. That doesn't sound "shortened". And it seems like people could still survive if it continued for another few years.

Fleeing was to be so urgent you shouldn't get your clothes (Matthew 24:18). But the Christians had more than one day to get out of Jerusalem. And Pella is not in the mountains. I think it is at the edge of the Jordan Valley.

A couple of points on this. I believe that the time frame for escape by Jewish believers was 3 years. When the Roman Army came initially in 66 AD, and departed, surprisingly, then Christians in Israel had time to assemble their things, navigate through Sabbath laws, and leave.

But as time got closer to the 2nd coming of the Roman Army, there was need for immediate action. Coming down off the housetop was a 1st century phenomenon, and not something practiced in 21st century Israel! And so, there was immediate need to run for the hills.

As to whether there were mountains in the region of Pella or not, I don't know. I've been to Israel, but largely in the area of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. I did notice that "mountains" in Israel were more like "mole hills" to me, living as I do in the Pacific NW. The Rocky Mts. are enormous compared to, say, Mt. Zion or the Mt. of Olives.

I get my location for Pella from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella,_Jordan)
When do you think they "saw" the AoD standing in the holy place? What is the AoD?

The word "generation" can also mean people of the same kind or are offspring of the same ancestor in certain cases. For example, Deuteronomy 32 was the Song of Moses predicting what would happen to Israel far into the future.

Deuteronomy 32:5 WEB They have dealt corruptly with him. They are not his children, because of their defect. They are a perverse and crooked generation.

generation (G1074 genea) can definitely mean a group of people born at the same time, but here are other examples that may indicate another meaning, namely children of God and children of the devil (John 8:42-44). The children of the devil will continue to exist until these troubles come upon them at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:34). Afterwards comes the harvest at the end of the age (Matthew 13:30).

Acts 2:40 With many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

Luke 16:8 “His lord commended the dishonest manager because he had done wisely, for the children of this world are, in their own generation, wiser than the children of the light.

Philippians 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without defect in the middle of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world,

"Generation" can indeed refer to a particular kind of people. But it normally associates the kind of people connected to a particular period in time--a literal generation.

In all of the references Jesus made to the generation rejecting him and about to crucify him, it was clear to me that he was referring to that literal generation. After all, it was in that generation, about 40 years later, that Jerusalem fell, just as Jesus had predicted, "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Notice the word "all" in Matthew 24:34. The things mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 did not take place yet, but "all these things" are supposed to happen before "this generation" passes away.

[greenonions]

I don't really have a stake in this conversation. But I can't help but point out that saying the time period between 30 and 70 is a "generation" seems like a stretch. The average lifespan at the time was only like 30 years. Few if anyone who heard Jesus speak in life would have been alive by the year 70.

How do you know? So when Jesus reached the age of 30, He was older than half of the population? Lots of children died? The generation doesn't pass away until the very last survivor dies, right?

[Fenris]

It won't make sense if you think I'm answering a question that wasn't asked. I never said anything prevented early Christians from mentioning the fall of Jerusalem in the NT. Quite simply, most of the NT Scriptures were written *before* the fall of the temple. Some of the history they recorded took place *before* the fall of the temple. Things that were written *after* the fall of the temple did not need recording--the NT Scriptures were not strict histories.

So an event that plays a large role in Christian theology goes unmentioned? That's really peculiar.

There's a simpler solution. The NT was written for a gentile audience and not a Jewish one. The destruction of the temple in Jerusalem wouldn't be a significant event to a non-Jewish reader. The fact that the NT is composed in "universal" (for the time) Greek and not Aramaic (which most Jews were fluent in) seems to reinforce this idea. 

You keep saying this, but unfortunately for you, it's false. Messianic Jews do exist, as much as you'd like that not to be so. A Jew does not stop being a "Jew" when he chooses to believe Jesus was the Messiah!

Um, yeah they do. If you accept a major tenet of another faith that's in opposition to your own faith, I think it's safe to say that you've left the flock. I mean, if a "Christian" said that they accepted Mohammed as a prophet of God and the Koran is holy writ, would they still be Christian?

No, I gave you a legitmate definition of a "generation." It is the lifetime of a person

Who else believes this?

I don't have to show you what is obvious. The 70 year Captivity obviously exterminated virtually all who had been living at the time it began. If you don't want to call this a "generation," that's up to you.

Again, who else considers this a "generation"?

[Fenris]

The generation doesn't pass away until the very last survivor dies, right?

Again, who counts a "generation" in this manner, expect when it is convenient for their theology?

[RandyPNW]

The generation doesn't pass away until the very last survivor dies, right?

Again, who counts a "generation" in this manner, expect when it is convenient for their theology?

Technically, but I don't think that's the idea here. The idea is that an entire group of people alive at the time Jesus pronounced this judgment saw the condition of the nation, and would also see the results. There was a sort of collective guilt shared by all the people, although I'm sure there were innocents and righteous people among them.

People who were 20 years old at the time Jesus said this, in about 30 AD, would be 60 years old 40 years later, right? That means a relatively large group of people would still be around to see the results of their "generation" in 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed the symbol of their religion, the temple.

When I was in my 20s I saw here in the U.S. the degradation of my country, following the drop out generation, with its free sex, drugs, and hostility towards its elders, and I also saw the older generation with its materialism, hypocrisy, and hidden sin.

And here I am now in my 60s, witnessing the collapse of political and moral values in my country, reaping what my generation has sown. I'm reading Mark Levin's book right now, "American Marxism," and couldn't agree more with his assessment, that we're going back down that old Communist road again! We're completely abandoning, as a nation, our Judeo-Christian ethics!

This is what I mean by "generation."

[Fenris]

Technically, but I don't think that's the idea here.

To me it looks like the term "generation" is a vague amount of time necessary to fill your debating needs.

People who were 20 years old at the time Jesus said this, in about 30 AD, would be 60 years old 40 years later, right? That means a relatively large group of people would still be around to see the results of their "generation" in 70 AD

No, it wouldn't be a large group of people. That's the point. The average lifespan was about 30 years. Someone who was 20 years old in the year 30 would probably be long dead by the year 70.

 

when the Romans destroyed the symbol of their religion, the temple.

It wasn't the "symbol of their religion". It was a holy site to the Jews alive at that time, including characters in the NT. It was said of James that "he used to enter alone into the temple and be found kneeling and praying for forgiveness for the people, so that his knees grew hard like a camel’s because of his constant worship of God, kneeling and asking forgiveness for the people."

When I was in my 20s I saw here in the U.S. the degradation of my country

And if you were in your 20s in the year 30 you'd be dead a buried long before the year 70.