"Where is the free will in Love Me Or Burn Forever?"

[Athanasius]

Gnosticism never really goes away.

It makes for a few good Sunday morning favourites too.

[RandyPNW]

Thanks for that. I can identify, but don't have time to answer right now. I truly sympathize and empathize. When you suffer, those who try to console you seem like cheap imposters, pretending to have all the answers. I know that for real.

It's maddening when you absolutely *know* God could fix things with the snap of His fingers. But He doesn't...at least most often He doesn't. Suffering is our lot in life. But there are smaller miracles wrapped up in the experiences of those who plod on ahead in hope. Keep hoping. I can tell you this *for real.*

I'm not sure about the difference between freedom of the will and freedom to choose. Clearly, we can't choose what we have no power to do. I agree with your description of choice given as a list of cause and effects, behavior and consequences--not necessarily the threat of judgment. But I do think the threat of judgment is a failure of Christian evangelists who wish to literally "scare the Hell out of people."

[Fenris]

It's maddening when you absolutely *know* God could fix things with the snap of His fingers. But He doesn't...

The book of Job comes to mind. Why does God allow the righteous sometimes suffer? Because He is God and has His reasons that we wouldn't necessarily understand, we being frail mortals with limited understanding.

[RandyPNW]

It's maddening when you absolutely *know* God could fix things with the snap of His fingers. But He doesn't...

The book of Job comes to mind. Why does God allow the righteous sometimes suffer? Because He is God and has His reasons that we wouldn't necessarily understand, we being frail mortals with limited understanding.

That's pure wisdom, Fenris.

[Athanasius]

Thanks for that. I can identify, but don't have time to answer right now. I truly sympathize and empathize. When you suffer, those who try to console you seem like cheap imposters, pretending to have all the answers. I know that for real.

For sure, and I appreciate that.

It's maddening when you absolutely *know* God could fix things with the snap of His fingers. But He doesn't...at least most often He doesn't. Suffering is our lot in life. But there are smaller miracles wrapped up in the experiences of those who plod on ahead in hope. Keep hoping. I can tell you this *for real.*

Yeah, I think for me it's less an impulse towards anger and more the temptation towards acedia. That sort of, oh whatever, He can, but He doesn't, who cares, what does it matter, etc. etc. A great deal of apathy, too. But God has His purposes and honestly, and I'm not personally bothered by my own theodicy, or 'why doesn't God act?' and all the rest. God has acted, and in that vein of Kierkegaardian anxiety it's up to me, with Him, to live a proper life and to conduct myself in such a way that a Kierkegaard or a Peterson can't walk up and say, "So, you say you believe in God but then why do you live like you don't? Eh, belief's a difficult thing, let me tell you, I've thought about it a lot". I've had one or two people ask me why I'm not angrier at God than I am, and I don't know, what would be the point in that? What matters is me before God. If I'm going to get angry at someone it will be other Christians who judge and tsk and gossip and look down on me and pity me and all the rest.

Jacob wrestled with God, what a neat story. But please don't wrestle with life.

I'm not sure about the difference between freedom of the will and freedom to choose. Clearly, we can't choose what we have no power to do. I agree with your description of choice given as a list of cause and effects, behavior and consequences--not necessarily the threat of judgment. But I do think the threat of judgment is a failure of Christian evangelists who wish to literally "scare the Hell out of people."

One of the points of my true life story was that these questions of will and choice, freedom, constraint, determination, etc., aren't ivory tower questions with the luxury of purely academic theological reflection. We all have our appetites, desires, inclinations and dispositions. One of the other points is that I contend with a mental state that I don't have the luxury of trusting. Do you know what it feels like to be convinced that you're not the person you present to the world? That you know better about yourself, and that something isn't right? That you engage in pretension; that you pretend to be the person other people perceive you to be? It's unsettling, obviously. It's disorienting. It's anxiety and discomfort, and lots of other things.

If we're going to talk about influence, then I know that well. I'm friends with duress. I have a good understanding of what it feels like to be compelled in a certain direction. It means that theology and philosophy and all the rest aren't exercises. They're deeply existential. They're an interest but they're also pursued as a means to survive. Holding to unfalsifiable ideas about human existence because some syllogism suggests a particular conclusion is fine I guess for some people, but it's not going to convince me. People appear to possess free will but actually don't? I'm such a person, explain to me why I think I'm free if I'm not? Good luck.

So, in light of all of the above, I persist in maintaining that my will is free and that I'm able to make free choices. "Your will isn't free because of influence!" collides with, "Yeah I'm under the influence occifer but clearly I still contend that my will is free". The academic position is unmoving in light of my experience and doesn't make sense of my experience, so neither is it compelling.

[RandyPNW]

Yeah, I think for me it's less an impulse towards anger and more the temptation towards acedia. That sort of, oh whatever, He can, but He doesn't, who cares, what does it matter, etc. etc. A great deal of apathy, too. But God has His purposes and honestly, and I'm not personally bothered by my own theodicy, or 'why doesn't God act?' and all the rest.

I would apply to myself what you say below, that I'm less affected by theological speculations than by drawing conclusions from personal experience. If I cannot affect a positive change, fixing my situation, then I have the choice either to accept my fate and continue believing in God's love, or resort to a lifestyle more comforting and yet less of a Christian witness.

I grew weary of improving my lot after some years, and resorted to visiting bars, even though I was never a bar person. Everybody treated me like I didn't belong there--they seemed to know I was a Christian.

One day I went into a bar with my alcoholic, formerly Christian friend. I was selling my motorcycle to him, and he said he would pay me in installments.

As I walked into the bar, I noted a pretty woman who I felt strangely didn't belong in a bar either. I immediately wished I could meet her, and sat down at the bar with my friend.

Immediately my friend said, "I have someone here I'd like you to meet." And he brought over the woman I had seen!

It turns out they were just "temporary friends." A few years later I married the woman. So I guess God meets you where you're at, at your worst moments?

The woman I met was not a Christian at the time, but was later converted due to the evangelism of someone else she met at a bar--a backslidden Pentecostal! It was only after that that we were reacquainted, and we got married.

We both had cleaned up our lives and decided a Christian witness is more important than feeling sorry for ourselves. When I first met her at that bar, she had just been going through her 2nd divorce! She was brought over to the US by an American serviceman from England, and now was desolate and alone in a foreign country.

God has acted, and in that vein of Kierkegaardian anxiety it's up to me, with Him, to live a proper life and to conduct myself in such a way that a Kierkegaard or a Peterson can't walk up and say, "So, you say you believe in God but then why do you live like you don't? Eh, belief's a difficult thing, let me tell you, I've thought about it a lot". I've had one or two people ask me why I'm not angrier at God than I am, and I don't know, what would be the point in that? What matters is me before God. If I'm going to get angry at someone it will be other Christians who judge and tsk and gossip and look down on me and pity me and all the rest.

One of my best friends, who was only vaguely a Christian said, humorously, "If I were you, I'd cut my throat!" I appreciated his honesty! Much better than the phony advice I've gotten through the years from Christian friends who always wanted to think they had all the answers.

One of the points of my true life story was that these questions of will and choice, freedom, constraint, determination, etc., aren't ivory tower questions with the luxury of purely academic theological reflection. We all have our appetites, desires, inclinations and dispositions. One of the other points is that I contend with a mental state that I don't have the luxury of trusting. Do you know what it feels like to be convinced that you're not the person you present to the world? That you know better about yourself, and that something isn't right? That you engage in pretension; that you pretend to be the person other people perceive you to be? It's unsettling, obviously. It's disorienting. It's anxiety and discomfort, and lots of other things.

Sounds almost like an out of body experience? But yes, I really do relate. Maybe we have relatable conditions? I was actually trained in the military to evaluate psychological conditions and treat addictions.

I try to not bog people down too much with my own negativities. But I actually have a cathartic appreciation for hearing about the sufferings of others, largely in movies. I don't actually wish suffering upon any real person at all, except that hearing their accounts does make me feel less alone in my own private suffering.

I used to hate to hear anything about people with disabilities, missing limbs, etc. But now, after decades of living, and having had friends with many different conditions, I'm much more comfortable with seeing suffering in the world.

If we're going to talk about influence, then I know that well. I'm friends with duress. I have a good understanding of what it feels like to be compelled in a certain direction. It means that theology and philosophy and all the rest aren't exercises. They're deeply existential. They're an interest but they're also pursued as a means to survive. Holding to unfalsifiable ideas about human existence because some syllogism suggests a particular conclusion is fine I guess for some people, but it's not going to convince me. People appear to possess free will but actually don't? I'm such a person, explain to me why I think I'm free if I'm not? Good luck.

So, in light of all of the above, I persist in maintaining that my will is free and that I'm able to make free choices. "Your will isn't free because of influence!" collides with, "Yeah I'm under the influence occifer but clearly I still contend that my will is free". The academic position is unmoving in light of my experience and doesn't make sense of my experience, so neither is it compelling.

Yea, we're free, no matter what influences us. I don't think we can always immediately avail ourselves of a magic pill, or a Bible promise. But if we persist, over time, in faith that it will end good if we continue to do good, then things do change for the better over time, and more understanding comes. Take care...

[Athanasius]

I would apply to myself what you say below, that I'm less affected by theological speculations than by drawing conclusions from personal experience. If I cannot affect a positive change, fixing my situation, then I have the choice either to accept my fate and continue believing in God's love, or resort to a lifestyle more comforting and yet less of a Christian witness.

I grew weary of improving my lot after some years, and resorted to visiting bars, even though I was never a bar person. Everybody treated me like I didn't belong there--they seemed to know I was a Christian.

One day I went into a bar with my alcoholic, formerly Christian friend. I was selling my motorcycle to him, and he said he would pay me in installments.

As I walked into the bar, I noted a pretty woman who I felt strangely didn't belong in a bar either. I immediately wished I could meet her, and sat down at the bar with my friend.

Immediately my friend said, "I have someone here I'd like you to meet." And he brought over the woman I had seen!

It turns out they were just "temporary friends." A few years later I married the woman. So I guess God meets you where you're at, at your worst moments?

The woman I met was not a Christian at the time, but was later converted due to the evangelism of someone else she met at a bar--a backslidden Pentecostal! It was only after that that we were reacquainted, and we got married.

We both had cleaned up our lives and decided a Christian witness is more important than feeling sorry for ourselves. When I first met her at that bar, she had just been going through her 2nd divorce! She was brought over to the US by an American serviceman from England, and now was desolate and alone in a foreign country.

Quite interesting how God works.

One of my best friends, who was only vaguely a Christian said, humorously, "If I were you, I'd cut my throat!" I appreciated his honesty! Much better than the phony advice I've gotten through the years from Christian friends who always wanted to think they had all the answers.

I get that sentiment semi-regularly or used to. That, and worse. A lot of, 'how are you able to live with yourself?'.

Sounds almost like an out of body experience?

No, very much 'in body', and almost a hyperawareness of that body. Although, how I have developed an unhealthy habit of relating to myself as if I were abstracted from myself. Maybe that speaks to the uncertainty.

[ProDeo]

...anyway. They're reasonable questions, and asserting that "man doesn't have 'free will'" and also that the term "'will' would suffice in every place [the term 'free will' is used]" begs the question. You've yet to offer a positive, only negative, and while negative theology is fine for those people - like me - who can't be bothered to pronounce 'apophatic', it does leave us wanting. We're curious for more. What is the 'will' if it is not 'free'?

Yes, if something as a will exists it's (basically) free, else the word would make no sense. So free will is a choice. Ha, I love paradoxes. BTW, your extended signature is a nice overall improvement 

[ProDeo]

Man has never had 'free will'.  That includes Adam and Eve. 

The implication of your statement is that God on multiple occasions in Scripture asked the impossible of people and punished them for their impossibility afterwards.

That's odd, right?

[Athanasius]

BTW, your extended signature is a nice overall improvement 

And yet, I keep trying to solve my life! I should just enjoy the uh, benefits (no that doesn't mean what everyone just thought).

[Abigail]

It's maddening when you absolutely *know* God could fix things with the snap of His fingers. But He doesn't...

The book of Job comes to mind. Why does God allow the righteous sometimes suffer? Because He is God and has His reasons that we wouldn't necessarily understand, we being frail mortals with limited understanding.

In the matter of Job, my question has been, why would Omniscient God the Father wager with Satan? As pertains to Job's commitment to faith in God.

God allowed Satan to take everything including Job's family in order to test Job. Why would Job's faith matter in particular to Satan?
Satan is opposed to everyone who has faith in the Father. While God knows all things from beginning to end. It stands then that God would know Job would persevere and hold to his faith and trust in God. Job suffered horribly so that God could win his wager with Satan.

And why does God confer with a fallen angel at all? Satan wanted God's job. He was the first sinner when he led a war against God in the hopes of gaining victory and taking God's place.
Of course he lost that war. Then his punishment entailed being cast out of Heaven but to the earth where God let him be lord and be an enemy of God, an opposer, while exploiting our sinful nature through temptation.

[Titus]

I wanted to put this as a reply in another thread in Controversial issues but that thread is locked. To me this isn't really a controversial issue.

I saw that comment under someone's YouTube video a few weeks ago and decided I would give the person a reply. This is what I said:

"If you understand what "you shall surely (most definitely) die" in Genesis 2:17 means you will understand what "God is not willing that any of us should perish" in 2 Peter 3:9 means; and if you understand what "for all have sinned" in Romans 3:23 and "Christ died for our sins" in 1 Corinthians 15:3 means, then finally you will understand what "did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world" and "He who believes on Him is not condemned" in John 3:17-18 means.

Then you will understand that the burning thing is a personal choice people make for themselves because we are not robots forced to receive rescue from everlasting death EVEN when it's freely given."

The everlasting death is both spiritual (separation from the Spirit of God, who is Life, John 6:63; John 3:6-8) and physical. Jesus used gehenna as a symbol of this state every time He spoke of it (example Matt 5:29; Matt 10:28). If Jesus spoke of this state implying that it is a real state, then it's a real state. John saw death and hades delivering all the souls in them in Rev 20:13-15. Anyone who was not found in the Lamb's book of Life (John 6:63; John 3:6-8) was cast into the Lake of Fire.

There's just one real big problem with this OP that was posted long ago.

Faith is not a part of Free Will.

It is a gift from God given to whom He chooses.

Nobody just wakes up one day and decides, of their own Free Will, to believe in, love and worship God.

The Bible proves that with many verses including: John 6:44; 14:26; Eph. 2:8; 1 Peter 1:21; Phil. 1:29; 1 Cor. 12:9; Jude 3

Once someone IS given Faith, though, they do have Free Will at that point, to some degree, because we see examples of people going astray from the Faith, and many warnings against falling away and encouraging enduring to the very end; as well as passages that relate the relentless attempts by the devil to lead us astray. Clearly, he is not working overtime to attack those who do not even have faith to begin with; those he already has in the bag.

These facts from Scripture change the entire landscape of the Christian paradigm for the modern mainstream Christian. Devouring the Bible daily is paramount in order to avoid Hosea 4:6,14; Jer. 9:6; Prov. 1:29; 2 Tim. 2:15

[RabbiKnife]

So, your response to Revelation 22:17, John 3:16, etc is?

And beyond that, the text itself (in the original) doesn't permit the idea that "faith" is the antecedent of "this" -- wrong gender.

Faith is not the free gift being discussed in Ephesians 2.  Salvation is.

[Fenris]

Faith is not a part of Free Will.

It is a gift from God given to whom He chooses.

Are you a Calvinist now?

[Titus]

So, your response to Revelation 22:17, John 3:16, etc is?

And beyond that, the text itself (in the original) doesn't permit the idea that "faith" is the antecedent of "this" -- wrong gender.

Faith is not the free gift being discussed in Ephesians 2.  Salvation is.

Rev. 22:17 "... whosoever will ..." are only those who have been called and given faith.

Nobody can come to Jesus until/unless they are called/drawn by God to Him. John 6:44 Nobody can get to God the Father unless they go through Christ. John 14:6b

Contrary to what modern mainstream churchianity would have you believe, John 3:16 is not all that is stated upon the subject within the Scriptures. The Bible must be taken as a whole, not cherry-picked apart to support favorite doctrines by anybody. Layman or well-respected Professors, Pastors or church leaders, etc.

Eph. 2:8 cannot be stating what you claim as long as all the other verses support my stated claim. It is speaking of Faith being a gift because the weight of the Scriptures support that concept. Look again at the supporting verses that I posted.