transfiguration lesson

[RandyPNW]

We may have wondered why Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and his closest disciples on the Mt. of Transfiguration?

This was a pre-glorification event, showing the closest disciples what lay ahead in the future for all of the faithful. At that time they were still under the Law, obtaining their relationship with God through sacrifices at the temple, and through obedience to the many requirements of the Law. Jesus was showing them that achieving glorification rested on Jesus' work and not on the works of Israel under the Law.

Moses represented the works of the Law, and Elijah represented how prophecy interprets the Law as fulfilled by the redemption of Jesus. It would be a new covenant. None of this is explained at that time, since they were still under the Law, and could not be told yet to transcend the Law. But later, they would know what this meant, that the New Covenant supersedes the Law.

We may have wondered, in the past, just where the Scriptures tell the Jews they can abandon the Law and start to live outside of the boundaries of the Law? Well, here it is! Don't be concerned about building a permanent place for Moses and Elijah, both of whom were prophets of the OT system. Rather, focus on Jesus as the permanent voice of God. He supersedes the Law.

[agnostic]

We may have wondered, in the past, just where the Scriptures tell the Jews they can abandon the Law and start to live outside of the boundaries of the Law? Well, here it is!

This is one of the most desperate supersessionist interpretations I've seen. Not one word in the transfiguration story is written about "the law" or it being thrown away.

Elijah and Moses show up at the transfiguration because Jews believed they would return before the end times.

Elijah is named first, not Moses. This is because of the prophecy which said Elijah would return before the end times.

Malachi 4 Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

This is why the disciples immediately ask Jesus about Malachi's prophecy right after seeing Elijah at the transfiguration.

Moses is named second. There was a belief by some that Moses would return alongside Elijah, such as in Deuteronomy Rabbah 3:17 and possibly implied by the two witnesses of Revelation 11 (and compare John 1:19–21 where the three key end times leaders are the Elijah, "the prophet" who is like Moses, and the messiah).

It's a super popular Christian claim that "Moses and Elijah represent the Law and Prophets," but I would insist you cite any source from the first century or earlier which claims this. Moses was often a short-hand for "the Law," but "Elijah" was not paired alongside Moses to mean "and the Prophets". When mentioned together, it was for both their roles as a prophet, or for the mentioned role as a sign that the end times had arrived.

The transfiguration story takes place on a mountain, and God expresses his presence with a cloud. This doesn't indicate that Jesus supersedes the Torah, but the opposite. The mountain and cloud are an echo of Moses receiving the Torah on Sinai. It's a doubling-down on continuity between the Sinai revelation of the Torah and this revelation of the messiah.

Don't be concerned about building a permanent place for Moses and Elijah

The story never mentions building a "permanent" dwelling for the two. You also imply that although buildings were not being made for Moses and Elijah, something was for Jesus, something the text never says.

Peter suggests putting up a "tent" -- skēnas, a temporary dwelling -- for Elijah, Moses, and Jesus. You take the lack of any tents put up for Elijah and Moses as symbolism that the Torah is abrogated. Except no tent is put up for Jesus either. It must mean Jesus is abrogated too! Or it just means Peter's suggestion was completely ignored regardless.

[RandyPNW]

This is one of the most desperate supersessionist interpretations I've seen. Not one word in the transfiguration story is written about "the law" or it being thrown away.

If you're "agnostic," what do I care what you think about Christian truth?

Elijah and Moses show up at the transfiguration because Jews believed they would return before the end times.

I didn't know the Jews expected Moses to return! I guess I'm still learning. But I did know some Jews expected Elijah to return before Messiah comes. And indeed he did come--Jesus identified John the Baptist as the one portrayed in the image of Elijah. As such, Elijah depicted the coming of Messiah because of his greatness as a prophet in destroying the Baal worship in Israel, in his miracles, and in his representation of the remnant of faithful.

Elijah is named first, not Moses. This is because of the prophecy which said Elijah would return before the end times.

Malachi 4 Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

This is why the disciples immediately ask Jesus about Malachi's prophecy right after seeing Elijah at the transfiguration.

I get it. Elijah comes 1st, as Malachi foretold. He was John the Baptist. But Peter, James, and John saw the real Elijah--not John the Baptist. So Elijah represented something different than John the Baptist, the "Elijah" who was to come.

Moses is named second. There was a belief by some that Moses would return alongside Elijah, such as in Deuteronomy Rabbah 3:17 and possibly implied by the two witnesses of Revelation 11 (and compare John 1:19–21 where the three key end times leaders are the Elijah, "the prophet" who is like Moses, and the messiah).

It's a super popular Christian claim that "Moses and Elijah represent the Law and Prophets," but I would insist you cite any source from the first century or earlier which claims this. Moses was often a short-hand for "the Law," but "Elijah" was not paired alongside Moses to mean "and the Prophets". When mentioned together, it was for both their roles as a prophet, or for the mentioned role as a sign that the end times had arrived.

I do think Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, because that's what they did.

The transfiguration story takes place on a mountain, and God expresses his presence with a cloud. This doesn't indicate that Jesus supersedes the Torah, but the opposite. The mountain and cloud are an echo of Moses receiving the Torah on Sinai. It's a doubling-down on continuity between the Sinai revelation of the Torah and this revelation of the messiah.

I don't think NT truth is anything but continuity from God in the OT to God in the NT. Remember that the Transfiguration story is being written by NT Christians of Jewish stock. They fully understood that this was something that took place in the OT era, speaking of the future.

Matt 17.9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

The story never mentions building a "permanent" dwelling for the two. You also imply that although buildings were not being made for Moses and Elijah, something was for Jesus, something the text never says.

Well yea, remember that Jesus told Peter that upon him, as apostle, the Church would be built.

Peter suggests putting up a "tent" -- skēnas, a temporary dwelling -- for Elijah, Moses, and Jesus. You take the lack of any tents put up for Elijah and Moses as symbolism that the Torah is abrogated. Except no tent is put up for Jesus either. It must mean Jesus is abrogated too! Or it just means Peter's suggestion was completely ignored regardless.

No, the voice from heaven says to listen to Jesus, meaning that Moses and Elijah are to be ignored before the voice of Messiah. This was a change, whether you see it or not, Agnostic!

[agnostic]

But I did know some Jews expected Elijah to return before Messiah comes.

Judaism expects Elijah to return because Malachi 4 says he will return.

And indeed he did come--Jesus identified John the Baptist as the one portrayed in the image of Elijah.

John denied being the fulfillment of Malachi 4's prophecy about Elijah when he was asked directly in John 1:21. I'm fully aware of the mental gymnastics performed to reconcile the two ideas, but the Occam's Razor here is it's a contradiction.

I do think Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, because that's what they did.

This is the most transparently circular argument I've read in a long time. "I think this because this is what I say it is."

Hence why I said

It's a super popular Christian claim that "Moses and Elijah represent the Law and Prophets," but I would insist you cite any source from the first century or earlier which claims this.

My point is this -- "Moses and Elijah symbolize the Law and the Prophets" is a claim Christians made up to explain the presence of Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration story because (surprise) the antisemitism present throughout Christian history (starting in the late first century) led Christians to completely ignore the Jewish traditions that converge in the transfiguration story.

Well yea, remember that Jesus told Peter that upon him, as apostle, the Church would be built.

We have to wonder why Mark and Luke both omitted the "on this rock" story completely but kept the transfiguration story if the former was so absolutely essential to understanding the latter. It's because the two stories have nothing to do with each other.

meaning that Moses and Elijah are to be ignored before the voice of Messiah.

The story says no such thing. You're making up details about the story, and changing other details, to force it into the supersessionist/antisemitic box you want Christianity to be.

The transfiguration's purpose -- based on its direct reference to Malachi's prophecy about Elijah, its echo of the Sinai revelation, and the belief that Moses would return alongside Elijah, among other possible allusions to end times beliefs held by Jews at the time -- was to show that the end times had arrived.

It's purpose was not to tell people to ignore the Jewish laws and Jewish prophets so that the Jewish religion would be replaced with a new anti-Jewish religion. If was, it would be in complete contradiction to the Torah's testimony of itself that its laws were "eternal," "forever," "perpetual," "for all generations," never to be added to or subtracted from.

[Fenris]

Transfiguration lessons are taught by Professor Minerva McGonagall. Transfiguration is essentially the art of changing the properties of an object.

Or is this something else entirely?

[agnostic]

Actually, I really dislike the word "transfiguration." It doesn't roll off the tongue. The Greek word just means "change"... "transform" if you want two syllables. Can we translate it that way?

[RandyPNW]

Judaism expects Elijah to return because Malachi 4 says he will return.

I get that, my friend. Christianity sometimes sees it that way too. However, I among many Christians, see John the Baptist as the fulfillment of "Elijah who was to come." He came in the spirit of Elijah, who represents all of the Prophets who had been preparing the way for Messiah. John was the last and greatest of them, because he was the direct forerunner of Messiah Jesus.

John denied being the fulfillment of Malachi 4's prophecy about Elijah when he was asked directly in John 1:21. I'm fully aware of the mental gymnastics performed to reconcile the two ideas, but the Occam's Razor here is it's a contradiction.

Yes, he denied being the literal Elijah, but admitted he was the forerunner, which is what the prophecy of Elijah coming really had to do with. In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead. Rather, it was about the fulfillment of what the Prophet Elijah had foreshadowed about the coming of Messiah. The Jews didn't get it. Necromancy was against the Law of Moses.

I do think Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, because that's what they did.

This is the most transparently circular argument I've read in a long time. "I think this because this is what I say it is."

Not at all. It's actually the reverse. Elijah, you say, does not represent the Prophets when he actually was one of them! Jesus said this:

Matt 11.13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

My point is this -- "Moses and Elijah symbolize the Law and the Prophets" is a claim Christians made up to explain the presence of Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration story because (surprise) the antisemitism present throughout Christian history (starting in the late first century) led Christians to completely ignore the Jewish traditions that converge in the transfiguration story.

You're entitled to your view. But I think Jesus said what he said, and the NT authors properly represented what he taught. This is a Christian forum, so I'm not going to say: well, yes unbelievers believe something else--that's a great point!

meaning that Moses and Elijah are to be ignored before the voice of Messiah.

The story says no such thing. You're making up details about the story, and changing other details, to force it into the supersessionist/antisemitic box you want Christianity to be.

Either that, or you're completely unable to make sense of an obvious inferrence?
Luke 17.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

The transfiguration's purpose -- based on its direct reference to Malachi's prophecy about Elijah, its echo of the Sinai revelation, and the belief that Moses would return alongside Elijah, among other possible allusions to end times beliefs held by Jews at the time -- was to show that the end times had arrived.

In some measure, yes. Jesus had already been preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom," that God's Kingdom "was near." He was stating that his presence among Israel as Messiah was indication that his Kingdom would follow his earthly ministry by an interval--an unstated period of time in which the Gospel message would advance among all nations, and not just Israel.

This has turned out to take a very long period of time. So the nearness of Christ's Kingdom reflects a priority we have in preparing for it, rather than a short chronology of time.

It's purpose was not to tell people to ignore the Jewish laws and Jewish prophets so that the Jewish religion would be replaced with a new anti-Jewish religion. If was, it would be in complete contradiction to the Torah's testimony of itself that its laws were "eternal," "forever," "perpetual," "for all generations," never to be added to or subtracted from.

I don't agree. The Law was "eternal" only insofar as the covenant remained in effect, and Israel was not "divorced" from God. However, failure under the Law did not mean an end to Israel's hope, but only the end of the Law itself.

So Jesus showed the importance of his work, in contrast to the work of the Law and the Prophets, which work was concerned with the covenant of Law. Thank God there is a means of forgiveness past the covenant of Law, not just on behalf of Israel but also on behalf of all nations who wish to hope in God.

[Fenris]

In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead.

Elijah isn't dead. He ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot. 2 Kings 2:11

[agnostic]

Can you stop ignoring people when they ask you to cite sources?

I would insist you cite any source from the first century or earlier which claims this.

This is the third time in this thread. I know it's a recurring problem in other threads too.

"Moses and Elijah" do not symbolize "the Law and the Prophets." Cite a source contemporary to the New Testament, or predating it, that says this.

Yes, he denied being the literal Elijah

There's that mental gymnastics I was referring to. John didn't deny being the "literal" Elijah. John denied being Elijah without qualification. Not once does the Bible make any distinction between a "literal" or "metaphorical" Elijah. This is yet another idea Christians have to make up ad hoc to reconcile a plain contradiction.

In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead.

Elijah never died in the Old Testament. He was taken to heaven. That's why Malachi has a prophecy that Elijah will return before the day of judgment: because he didn't die.

The Jews didn't get it.

There's that obligatory comment degrading "the Jews"...

You're entitled to your view. But I think Jesus said what he said, and the NT authors properly represented what he taught.

The problem is not that we disagree. It happens all the time in biblical studies, and I'm totally fine with it! The problem is the Christian view here was made up for the purpose of explaining a question about the story.

That's why I keep asking you to "cite sources from the first century or earlier" that support your claim that Moses and Elijah symbolize "the Law and the Prophets". It's also why you keep ignoring my request/refusing to cite any sources. There aren't any sources to cite, because the idea didn't exist until after Christians starting reading the transfiguration story and asked "why Moses and Elijah?"

Either that, or you're completely unable to make sense of an obvious inferrence?

The anti-Jewish interpretation is not an "obvious inference" when the story is about Jewish disciples of a Jewish preacher claiming to be the Jewish messiah who was sent by the Jewish God as foretold by the Jewish law and the Jewish prophets. The anti-Jewish interpretation is only "obvious" within an antisemitic supersessionist theology that looks for interpretations of the Bible that are the least charitable to Jews.

[RandyPNW]

In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead.

Elijah isn't dead. He ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot. 2 Kings 2:11

No, Fenris, Elijah is dead. He died on his way past where his lungs had access to oxygen. He died, at any rate, when he no longer drank water, or outlived the capacity of his body to live in heaven. All men die. That's the curse. The fact he was taken up to heaven alive didn't mean he didn't die.

To say Elijah is coming back is necromancy, or reincarnation, or resurrection. In fact, Elijah came back in a vision on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But he isn't coming back before the Day of the Lord.

According to Christians, this role was fulfilled by John the Baptist. The name "Elijah" was used because John hadn't been born yet. The office of a great prophet was used to depict the power of Jesus' forerunner.

[RandyPNW]

Can you stop ignoring people when they ask you to cite sources?

I wasn't ignoring you. I just don't know the answer to the question!

For me, the Gospels themselves provided enough to understand this. And I know that Christian scholars have come to the same conclusion. Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets. Jesus alone was to be listened to, as the all-encompassing voice, excluding all other voices.

"Moses and Elijah" do not symbolize "the Law and the Prophets." Cite a source contemporary to the New Testament, or predating it, that says this.

Why on earth would I need to find a source contemporary to the NT when we have the NT itself?

You need confirmation, as an "agnostic." I don't, because I believe it is authentic. Your demands that I provide what *you need* will be ignored because *I* don't need it!

Don't get me wrong. These are good questions. I'm only ignoring your *demand* that I answer certain things, "or else."

Yes, he denied being the literal Elijah

There's that mental gymnastics I was referring to. John didn't deny being the "literal" Elijah.

Yes, he did.

In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead.

Elijah never died in the Old Testament. He was taken to heaven. [/QUOTE]

He died when he ran out of air or got too old for his body to survive. But I suspect God gave him an instant extermination so as not to suffer.

[Fenris]

No, Fenris, Elijah is dead.

Not what the bible says.
Really.

He died on his way past where his lungs had access to oxygen.

So God brought him up in a fiery chariot, into a low earth orbit, where he asphyxiated. Not a great end for a biblical prophet. I mean, he couldn't die of old age? God had to torture him to death?

He died, at any rate, when he no longer drank water, or outlived the capacity of his body to live in heaven. All men die. That's the curse. The fact he was taken up to heaven alive didn't mean he didn't die.

So he died in heaven? I mean, outer space. Or someplace.

To say Elijah is coming back is necromancy, or reincarnation, or resurrection. In fact, Elijah came back in a vision on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But he isn't coming back before the Day of the Lord.

See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. Malachi 4:5. (NIV)

Are you inventing a new religion too? It's all the rage these days I understand. Have a pesky biblical verse that doesn't fit with your theology? Ignore it!

[RandyPNW]

No, Fenris, Elijah is dead.

Not what the bible says.
Really.

It didn't say he didn't die, Fenris. Really.

He died on his way past where his lungs had access to oxygen.

So God brought him up in a fiery chariot, into a low earth orbit, where he asphyxiated. Not a great end for a biblical prophet. I mean, he couldn't die of old age? God had to torture him to death?

I certainly never meant to imply any undignified death for Elijah, the great prophet who took down Baal worship! He was being promoted in the greatest possible way, by being escorted straight up into the sky! His death was likely the opposite of torture--it was probably instantaneous, like falling asleep.

He died, at any rate, when he no longer drank water, or outlived the capacity of his body to live in heaven. All men die. That's the curse. The fact he was taken up to heaven alive didn't mean he didn't die.

So he died in heaven? I mean, outer space. Or someplace.

That's the best we can do. We're out of our range. This is God's domain. And I mean I may not even believe it is possible, except for the fact we're somehow here to begin with! That's even more strange than surviving death in heaven!

To say Elijah is coming back is necromancy, or reincarnation, or resurrection. In fact, Elijah came back in a vision on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But he isn't coming back before the Day of the Lord.

See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. Malachi 4:5. (NIV)

Are you inventing a new religion too? It's all the rage these days I understand. Have a pesky biblical verse that doesn't fit with your theology? Ignore it!

It's not pesky to me. I'm just following it to its logical conclusion, and accepting exactly what it's saying.

1. Elijah was to come.
2. Elijah could not be the literal Elijah--the Law prohibits reincarnation or necromancy.
3. The NT indicates that Jesus was the Messiah, and John the Baptist his forerunner, or herald. John was thus identified by Jesus as "Elijah who was to come."
4) The Elijah who appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration was not John the Baptist, and thus not "Elijah who was to come."

[Fenris]

It didn't say he didn't die, Fenris.

He ascended to heaven alive. That's what the bible says.

I certainly never meant to imply any undignified death for Elijah, the great prophet who took down Baal worship! He was being promoted in the greatest possible way, by being escorted straight up into the sky! His death was likely the opposite of torture--it was probably instantaneous, like falling asleep.

Not what the bible says though.

That's the best we can do. We're out of our range. This is God's domain. And I mean I may not even believe it is possible, except for the fact we're somehow here to begin with! That's even more strange than surviving death in heaven!

So you're capable of believing a big strange thing but not a small strange thing. ok.

It's not pesky to me. I'm just following it to its logical conclusion, and accepting exactly what it's saying.

1. Elijah was to come.

Stop right here. because that's where the bible does.

[RandyPNW]

It didn't say he didn't die, Fenris.

He ascended to heaven alive. That's what the bible says.

It didn't say he didn't die. To ascend into heaven alive is to enter into a habitat alive, and come to exist in a place where a body cannot continue to exist. That's called death, particularly since the Scriptures condemned all of mankind to death.

I certainly never meant to imply any undignified death for Elijah, the great prophet who took down Baal worship! He was being promoted in the greatest possible way, by being escorted straight up into the sky! His death was likely the opposite of torture--it was probably instantaneous, like falling asleep.

Not what the bible says though.

Yes, where there's silence there is an opportunity to draw our own logical conclusions, or simply believe what we want to believe.

That's the best we can do. We're out of our range. This is God's domain. And I mean I may not even believe it is possible, except for the fact we're somehow here to begin with! That's even more strange than surviving death in heaven!

So you're capable of believing a big strange thing but not a small strange thing. ok.

I'm capable of believing most anything in this strange existence. But I choose to believe the Scriptures. The Scriptures indicate Elijah went up alive to heaven, where he could no longer live. The Scriptures say all men must die. I believe that.

It's not pesky to me. I'm just following it to its logical conclusion, and accepting exactly what it's saying.

1. Elijah was to come.

Stop right here. because that's where the bible does.

You can decide, as a Jew, where the Bible stops. But God is the one who really decides where He stops speaking and where men stop dictating. Jews started the NT Church. They wrote our Scriptures. The idea of a Jewish remnant departing from the mainstream Jewish culture is in the Jewish Bible, friend.