Postrib vs Dispy

[RandyPNW]

The text says that Israel was divorced- not Judah. And it's significant, because as I've pointed out, Israel is lost to history but not Judah.

Jews have a bias in the interpretation. They want Judah to remain "un-divorced" as evidence that Judaism itself remains forever.

So we disagree. You may think you have license, as a Jew, to interpret Jewish Scriptures. But Christians believe God inspired the Scriptures, and provided them to Israel to in turn give them to the world. The Jewish interpretation is illegitimate when it excludes this universal approach to their Scriptures.

There is no "curse" for "breaking the covenant". If you read the warnings for disobedience in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, they mention horrible curses for  disobedience- and they all came true at one point or another. What they never mention is the end of the covenant (Lev 26:44 actually says the exact opposite) because there is no ending the covenant. There is no opt-out clause. The covenant is permanent.

Again, Jews have a bias in coming to this conclusion--they want Judaism to always have an escape clause. But God used the word divorce. And He applied it first to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, with the implication that it held equal force--perhaps more so--to the Southern Kingdom of Judah, because Judah should've known better.

Because Judah survived, and returned to the land, and rebuilt the temple. Hundreds of years later, a Jewish guy named Jesus visited the place.

The rebuilding of the nation around Judah was the miracle of restoration following divorce. It was God's ultimate forgiveness--divorce was a final act of marriage. But God showed His kindness and love by restoring even a divorcee.

That's true, and doesn't require the NT to happen.

Well, we have to disagree there, for obvious reasons. The NT was, for me, God's means of restoring Israel. The Jewish Diaspora is indicative of the fact God is not yet pleased with Israel's current condition.

He doesn't curse nations or peoples just because they follow their own religious convictions. But He can't bless them when they're not obeying His word.

I don't think Jews know God's word any longer, accept the words on a page. The NT is God's exclusive means of speaking to people today, and He's not going to compromise truth.

[Fenris]

Jews have a bias in the interpretation.

There's no text that says that God "divorced" Judah. If reading the actual text is biased, then yes, I'm biased.

They want Judah to remain "un-divorced" as evidence that Judaism itself remains forever.

The text says that Judaism remains forever. If you're unhappy with that, take it up with God. Not me.

An example from Exodus 31:

Six days work may be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever performs work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Thus shall the children of Israel observe the Sabbath, to make the Sabbath throughout their generations as an eternal covenant. Between Me and the children of Israel, it is a sign forever that in six days The Lord created the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and rested.

Through out their generations. Eternal covenant. Sign forever.

What do those words mean to you?

So we disagree. You may think you have license, as a Jew, to interpret Jewish Scriptures.

I do.

But Christians believe God inspired the Scriptures, and provided them to Israel to in turn give them to the world. The Jewish interpretation is illegitimate when it excludes this universal approach to their Scriptures.

IN other words, "the Jewish interpretation is illegitimate because I don't agree with it. "

Again, Jews have a bias in coming to this conclusion--they want Judaism to always have an escape clause.

I just said the exact opposite. Judaism has no escape clause. Please read what I say.

But God used the word divorce. And He applied it first to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, with the implication that it held equal force--perhaps more so--to the Southern Kingdom of Judah, because Judah should've known better.

The word "divorce" is never used in regards to Judah. Words, they mean things.

The rebuilding of the nation around Judah was the miracle of restoration following divorce. It was God's ultimate forgiveness--divorce was a final act of marriage. But God showed His kindness and love by restoring even a divorcee.

Then the covenant remained in effect. You're coming around I see.

Well, we have to disagree there, for obvious reasons. The NT was, for me, God's means of restoring Israel.

But you just said that God restored Israel prior to Jesus. How perplexing!

I don't think Jews know God's word any longer

I guess we will find out.

[keraz]

     
Jeremiah 13:1-10 Jeremiah is instructed to buy a loincloth. He is then told to hide it near a river. After a long time, he retrieved it, but it was ruined.

Jeremiah 13:11-27 Thus, I shall ruin the enormous pride of Judah, these people with stubborn hearts, who worship other gods – they will become like that cloth, no good for anything.  Hosea 8:14,  Jeremiah 8:5-12
......I bound all Israel and all Judah to Me, so that they should become a source of renown and praise to Me, but they did not listen.  Isaiah 31:6-7
....I shall make all who live in Jerusalem drunk..... I shall show no compassion nor refrain from destroying them.  Obadiah 12-16
Pay heed, be not too proud to listen, for it is the Lord who speaks.
                Give glory to God, before the light that you look for turns to darkness.
  If in the depths you will not listen, then weep bitterly for the Lords people are carried off into captivity. [Judah conquered by Babylon and again in AD70]   Ezekiel 21:14
Say to the King and the Queen mother; take a humble seat, for your crowns have fallen.  Ezekiel 21:25-27

The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.  This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jeremiah 10:18
Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North.
 The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land.  Isaiah 41:8-10

Where is the flock that you were so proud of? 
God’s people scattered among the nations.
What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins.  Isaiah 3:1-3
Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9

I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind.  Jeremiah 33:14
This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see.   Isaiah 3:16-26
For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean?    Nahum 1:12-15

This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
 Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12  They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.         

[Fenris]

     
This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah  in ancient times

Yes.

and again, soon to happen,

Not anywhere in the text.

Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 

Again quoting a single verse while ignoring the rest of the chapter I see. Why not start from verse 5?

And now the Lord says—
    he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
    and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord
    and my God has been my strength—
he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
    to restore the tribes of Jacob
    and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the nations,
    that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

 This is what the Lord says—
    the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
    to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
    princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
    the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

 This is what the Lord says:

“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
    and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
    to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
    and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
    and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’

“They will feed beside the roads
    and find pasture on every barren hill.
 They will neither hunger nor thirst,
    nor will the desert heat or the sun beat down on them.
He who has compassion on them will guide them
    and lead them beside springs of water.
I will turn all my mountains into roads,
    and my highways will be raised up.
See, they will come from afar—
    some from the north, some from the west,
    some from the region of Aswan.”

 Shout for joy, you heavens;
    rejoice, you earth;
    burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
    and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.

But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
    the Lord has forgotten me.”

 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
    and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
    I will not forget you!
 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
    your walls are ever before me.
 Your children hasten back,
    and those who laid you waste depart from you.
 Lift up your eyes and look around;
    all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the Lord,
    “you will wear them all as ornaments;
    you will put them on, like a bride.

 “Though you were ruined and made desolate
    and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
    and those who devoured you will be far away.
 The children born during your bereavement
    will yet say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
    give us more space to live in.’
 Then you will say in your heart,
    ‘Who bore me these?
I was bereaved and barren;
    I was exiled and rejected.
    Who brought these up?
I was left all alone,
    but these—where have they come from?’”

 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“See, I will beckon to the nations,
    I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
    and carry your daughters on their hips.
 Kings will be your foster fathers,
    and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
    they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
    those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”


When one reads the whole chapter it looks somewhat different, eh?

[agnostic]

When a theology says that an ethno-religious group is intrinsically blind (by God? by satan? both, it often seems like) such that they are unable to read their own holy book, understand it, or elucidate anything of value in it... that's an inherent prejudice against that ethno-religious group. Supersessionism is antisemitic.

And as much as I anticipate getting some flak for saying that so bluntly, it's still entirely accurate.

Four of the recent threads are orbiting right around this supersessionist/antisemitic "Jews are blind and can't read their own Bible" theology, if not dropping right into its gravity.

For a religion that began as a Jewish sect of Jews who kept the Jewish law and Jewish holidays and followed (who they believed to be) the Jewish messiah because they believed the Jewish prophecies which repeatedly said that the Jewish God would exalt the Jewish nation... there is a lot of really blatant antisemitism in the form of Christianity being pushed in these recent threads.

[agnostic]

Plus

The Law contained a conditional provision which, if broken, would destroy the deal for all time.

You're going to need to provide a chapter and verse from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy. I can't think of a single point that says what you're claiming it says.

Did I ever get an answer to this?

I also keep seeing a lot of really bold claims like this in these threads, with no evidence to back it up even when asked.

[keraz]

Anti-Semitic?  No I am anti the godless and Jesus rejecting people, of every race or nation.

Jeremiah 6:8-9 Be instructed, Jerusalem [Judah], or your God will depart from you and will devastate the Land.   Psalms 89:30-32, Matthew 21:43
The Lord says: Glean like a vine the remnant of Israel, one last time, like the vine dresser – pass your hand over the branches.  Isaiah 5:5-7

Jeremiah 6:10-15 To whom shall I speak and give warning? Who will hear me? Their ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach, it has no appeal for them.     Ezekiel 14:2, Ezekiel 22:26-28

But I am full of the anger of the Lord, I cannot hold it back. Isaiah 63:1-6 I must pour it out onto all the people of the Land. Their houses will be given to others.
        2 Esdras 1:35-37
For all the leaders and people only consider themselves, their prophets and Rabbis are all frauds, every one of them. They fail to address the real problems of their people. They say: “All is well”. All well? Nothing is right and just. They ought to be ashamed because of their sinful practices, yet they have no sense of shame, therefore they will fall with a great crash and be brought low on the Day of My reckoning.  Ezekiel 33:25-26

Jeremiah 6:16-20-30 The Lord says: you should enquire about the Way that leads to righteousness. But they said: “We refuse”. Then I appointed watchmen – listen for the call they told them. But they said: “We refuse”. Therefore hear you nations and take note of the plight of these people. I am about to bring ruin upon them, for all their sinful ways and ignoring My instructions. Your sacrifices are not acceptable and your offerings do not please Me. Zephaniah1:4-6 Matthew 24:41-42

Therefore the Lord says: I will set obstacles before this people, which will bring them to the ground, father, sons, friends and neighbours will all perish together. Jeremiah 12:14-17 
A great host appears, like men arrayed for battle, against you: Zion.
       Joel 2:1-11, Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21

  These verses are the clearest description of how the Lord will act on His great Day of vengeance. Isaiah 63:1-6 A coronal mass ejection  flash will ‘come in an instant’, but ‘news of its coming will reach us’, by the STEREO satellite system. ‘Do not go outside’, is obvious – get into underground shelters and stay there until it passes, at least 24hrs. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 30:26

It is appointed to assay My people, testing their conduct, but they are all rebels, mischief makers and corrupt to a man. The bellows blow, the fire is ready. All types of metal in vain the refiner refines, but the impurities cannot be removed.
Call them reject silver, for the Lord has rejected them.  Ref: REB.

Only a remnant of the people of the Jewish State of Israel will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming fire judgement – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and this prophesy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of the Land. Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 21:1-17, Isaiah 6:11-14           

[Fenris]

Anti-Semitic?  No I am anti the godless and Jesus rejecting people, of every race or nation.

Oh please. Spare us. You have this fantasy of most of the world dying in a hellish inferno, but especially the Jews. And it's sadistic and disgusting and decidedly not Christian.

Only a remnant of the people of the Jewish State of Israel will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13

Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”

And he answered:

“Until the cities lie ruined
    and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
    and the fields ruined and ravaged,
 until the Lord has sent everyone far away
    and the land is utterly forsaken.
 

This already happened, in 586BC. Todays Jews are the remnant.

[RandyPNW]

The text says that Israel was divorced- not Judah. And it's significant, because as I've pointed out, Israel is lost to history but not Judah.

You keep saying this, but I've given you the relevant Scripture passages. When God said He is divorcing the Northern Kingdom, and that the Southern Kingdom is even worse, you conclude that somehow the Southern Kingdom is not going to be divorced? The *only reason* divorce is mentioned for the Northern Kingdom first is because they were the first to terminate their covenant with God!

This was given not just to the Northern Kingdom but also to the Southern Kingdom:

Isa 50.1 Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Divorce was used, by the Prophets, as an indication of an irrevocably broken covenant under the Law. Once sin had reached a certain stage, exile became unavoidable. The putting away of Israel from their land was the equivalent of putting a woman away in divorce. Both northern and southern kingdoms were as such "put away." Both were "divorced."

Jews will not accept this because they have a vested interest in preserving a religion that had, in reality, been vacated and delegitimized by God. In breaking the covenant to the extent it was called a "divorce" indicates that the agreement was off, and Judaism could no longer be called upon to prove the promise of restoration, to prove the necessity of the Abrahamic hope.

However, Christianity validates the Abrahamic covenant through a different pathway, beyond Judaism, which has been laid upon the foundation of Judaism. Instead of the Law, which has disqualified Israel, Christian grace is used as the basis for Israel's hope,  as well as the hope for the rest of the nations, who are equally undeserving.

[agnostic]

Anti-Semitic?  No I am anti the godless and Jesus rejecting people, of every race or nation.

I recall someone posting one of the most tired antisemitic conspiracy theories about "the Rothchilds" in another thread...

[agnostic]

Jews will not accept this because they have a vested interest in preserving ((their)) religion

You say this like it's some kind of profound observation that members of Judaism... want to preserve Judaism, and hence disagree with an objectively errant take on their religious beliefs.

that had, in reality, been vacated and delegitimized by God.

As you've been told several times, the Torah contains provisions for when the covenant is broken, how covenant-breakers may be disciplined, and how they may be restored.

When the terms of a contract explicitly say "if you break this contract, I will punish you and then restore you", and you pretend that last part doesn't exist, it makes it really hard to believe you're being intellectually honest with this topic.

Probably why you made this claim, but are ignoring my request for you to cite your sources.

The Law contained a conditional provision which, if broken, would destroy the deal for all time.

You're going to need to provide a chapter and verse from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy. I can't think of a single point that says what you're claiming it says.

Did I ever get an answer to this?

I also keep seeing a lot of really bold claims like this in these threads, with no evidence to back it up even when asked.

[Fenris]

You keep saying this, but I've given you the relevant Scripture passages. When God said He is divorcing the Northern Kingdom, and that the Southern Kingdom is even worse, you conclude that somehow the Southern Kingdom is not going to be divorced?

Yes, because (believe it or not!) God doesn't say that He "divorced" Judah. God in the book of Isaiah says the exact opposite in fact, that the Jews weren't exiled because of divorce, but only because they sinned! And as per Lev 36 and Deut 28, exile in a punishment for sin under the Sinai covenant. It means the covenant is still in effect, in other words.

The *only reason* divorce is mentioned for the Northern Kingdom first is because they were the first to terminate their covenant with God!

Again, if you read the bible very carefully, there are no conditions under which the covenant is terminated. None. Zero. There's no opting out. We're bound to God and obligated to follow the rules He gave us whether we like it or not.

This was given not just to the Northern Kingdom but also to the Southern Kingdom:

Isa 50.1 Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

OMG at least quote the whole verse, because this is disingenuous in the extreme-

This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away."


"I didn't send you away because of divorce, I sent you away because you sinned. "

And the previous chapter creates context.

And Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me."  Shall a woman forget her sucking child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you.

The exile was for sin, but there will be an ingathering when we again deserve it, and it will be gorious.

Divorce was used, by the Prophets, as an indication of an irrevocably broken covenant under the Law.

No, it's not, and that's the whole point. Exile is a punishment under the covenant, not a breaking of the covenant. If the covenant was broken God would have destroyed us, as so many other nations have vanished form the earth. But God specifically said otherwise, to wit, Lev 26:44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God.

Jews will not accept this because they have a vested interest in preserving a religion that had, in reality, been vacated and delegitimized by God.

Jews will not accept this because we love God, and because there's nothing in the text of the bible to lead us to believe that any covenant has been "broken". And If we can't find it in the bible, which is God's word, why should a trust a human being's word on the matter?

However, Christianity

Christianity is a different religion from Judaism. And I can spring your own words right back on you. You feel the need to delegitimize Judaism to "prove" to yourself that your faith is correct.

[Fenris]

I'm going to quote all of Leviticus 26 for clarity on the matter.

“‘Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God.

“‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

This section is the rewards for obedience

“‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands,  I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.

“‘I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country.  You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you.  Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.

 “‘I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you.  You will still be eating last year’s harvest when you will have to move it out to make room for the new.  I will put my dwelling place among you, and I will not abhor you.  I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.  I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.

So far so good. Next comes the Punishment for Disobedience


 “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands,  and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant,  then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.  I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.

 “‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.  I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze.  Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit.

 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.  I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

 “‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me,  I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over.  And I will bring the sword on you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.  When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.

 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me,  then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over.  You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.  I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.  I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.  I myself will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled.  I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.  Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.  All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

 “‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them.  They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies.  You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you.  Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’ sins they will waste away.

All terrifying, especially since all these terrible things happened to us. But nothing about ending the covenant. All these punishments take place within the conditions of the covenant.

Next-

 “‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors—their unfaithfulness and their hostility toward me, which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin,  I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.

If while in exile and being punished, we confess our sins, God will remember the covenant. See, because it's still in effect.


  For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees.  Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God.  But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”  These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

 Even while in exile, God will not destroy us or annul His covenant with us. He will remember the covenant that He made with our ancestors. This is the plain text of the bible.

[RandyPNW]

You don't need to quote, Fenris, the blessings and the curses of the Law. I know them very well. However, the promise of perseverance beyond the apparent failure of the Law is not the product of obedience to the Law and the blessing of obedience.

On the contrary, Israel disobeys and is cursed. They are restored, and persevere as God's people not because of the Law, but only because of God's promise to Abraham.

Do you see the difference? If national salvation was by  the Law, it would've been by their obedience. But they are exiled out of disobedience, out of the curse of the Law. Therefore, it s not the Law that saves them, but rather, mercy *beyond the Law itself!*

It is not by the blessings of obedience to the Law, but rather by mercy, because they failed under the Law. It was, as Paul said, because of God's mercy, and by God's promise to the patriarchs, and not by the Law, which Israel clearly failed.

[Fenris]

You don't need to quote, Fenris, the blessings and the curses of the Law. I know them very well.

Do you, though?

However, the promise of perseverance beyond the apparent failure of the Law

There is no failure of the law. What does that even mean?

On the contrary, Israel disobeys and is cursed. They are restored, and persevere as God's people not because of the Law, but only because of God's promise to Abraham.

Not what the bible says.

Deuteronomy 30:

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,  and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,  then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.  Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.  He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Do you see the difference? If national salvation was by  the Law, it would've been by their obedience. But they are exiled out of disobedience, out of the curse of the Law. Therefore, it s not the Law that saves them, but rather, mercy *beyond the Law itself!*

See the above. That we haven't been redeemed yet is because we haven't fully returned to the law *yet*. Or did God just put Deuteronomy 30 in the bible for nothing?

It is not by the blessings of obedience to the Law, but rather by mercy, because they failed under the Law. It was, as Paul said, because of God's mercy, and by God's promise to the patriarchs, and not by the Law, which Israel clearly failed.

Israel was blessed during King David and especially King Solomon's time. Come to think of it, Israel seems pretty blessed now, also. So I mean, it is possible. Deuteronomy 30, again-

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.  It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”  Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”  No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.  For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.