Postrib vs Dispy

[Fenris]

Obviously. And if you stand by Judaism, you're not going to agree with Christian propositions, out of loyalty to a culture, rather than loyalty to the truth.

Why do you get to decide what is "truth"? Maybe I'm the one who knows the "truth".

Sounding like Biden doesn't help your case!

A great answer to a biblical quote that disagrees with you.

Just once--I've been reading this passage seriously since the early 70s. Again, it is a sorry picture of national failure, again, and again, over time.

Or, it's a story of perseverance. A people fails, but tries. Again and again. Is the glass half empty or half full?

I don't know how quoting it helps your case? A promise of restoration implies an eternal promise was made.

Yes. Because God's promises are eternal.

But it also implies a broken covenant took place. Restoration of a covenant does *not* imply that the covenant continued--only the promise continued. The covenant being restored is not the covenant being continued.

No place does the bible say this. Quite the opposite. Lev 26:44. You're inventing "facts" to support your argument, while ignoring what God actually said.

No, not looking at the Law through Jewish eyes is not seeing the Law backwards.

It's not about "Jewish eyes". It's about what the bible actually says. Which you feel free to disregard because *reasons*.

It is disagreeing with a Jewish consensus about the Law that it is not about atonement. In fact, it is full of atonement.

No, atonement and the law are two separate things. The law is what God expects that we do. Atonement only comes into play when we fall short.

For a long while, in biblical times, the Hebrew people felt it was okay to observe both the Law and pagan religion. Am I backwards not to accept the "Jewish consensus" at that time?

Just because Jews were sometimes wrong doesn't mean that Jews are always wrong. Heck, there was a time when Christianity was Inquisitions and Crusades and burning heretics at the stake. That doesn't mean that all Christians are like that, then or now. Yet you somehow think that because Jews were wrong sometimes, it means they're always wrong.

I'm not arguing against the idea Cain couldn't do good works. So that has nothing to do with it. Sin is "incurable" because we all have the inward tendency towards sin, a predisposition in our nature to make choices independent of God's Spirit. Even the most righteous among us have this problem--it is indeed "incurable."

No, that's called "being a human being". You try, fall short, and try harder next time. God doesn't expect perfection. He just expects us to try. And an important part of that is having an evil urge to overcome. No evil urge, no free will, and human existence has no meaning.

It's all about perspective, see?

It's a fact that the history describes it as such by Jews who founded Christianity.

Yes, Jews are a busy and productive people in all fields of human endeavor. Did you know that about 25% of all Nobel prizes awarded have gone to Jews, who make up just 0.2% of the world's population? So naturally one would expect that Jews would also be busy in the field of religion. That doesn't make it true or correct. See socialism for one such example.

It's both Moses' Law and God's Law--what a meaningless distinction to make!

It's God's law.

God gave the Law through Moses to Israel. The hopeless condition of Israel is played up repeatedly in the Jewish Bible, calling upon a Messianic "fix."

There's no such fix. God asks us again and again to uphold the law. Not give it up and rely on a "messianic fix".

There did need to be a better redemption than that which had been failing by the Law. That called for a better priesthood and a better Law.

Which isn't in my bible anywhere.

That's not true. Christianity was founded by Jews in Judaism. They believed that Christianity was a necessary transition propounded by Judaism itself.

We both argee that sometimes Jews can be wrong. So perhaps those Jews were wrong. Eh?

Obviously, the majority who remained in original Judaism rejected this transition. The fact it was a majority of Jews that rejected Christianity proves nothing, since Hebrew majorities in the Bible made mistakes again and again, and for very long periods of time.

And the fact that a minority of Jews embraced something also proves nothing, as a minority of Jews have also been wrong. For example, Hellenists, Sadducees, Essenes, Sabbateans, the list goes on and on. Yet somehow in your example, those Jews should be followed by other Jews. Because, again, *reasons*.

You say that, but the Law expressed the need for closure,

Chapter and verse, please.

and thus for prophetic fulfillment--a resolution to the problem of sin in Israel. And so, prophecy of the final state of Israel is replete in how the Prophets themselves characterized the Law.

By following it. Not abandoning it.

The captivities were living proof that all solutions available under the Law could not prevent Israel's failures.

No. And God expects us to pick ourselves up after fail and try again. Deuteronomy 30, and many many other places.

It's in your Bible, but you choose to stick with your own words.

Again, chapter and verse please. Saying it's "implied" or "obvious" is simply not true, because the plain text says the exact opposite.

The proposition that obedience leads to blessings and disobedience leads to curses is indeed a "conditional covenant."

No. No no no no. That disobedience leads to curses is a condition of the covenant, not an abrogation. After all the curses in Lev 26, God specifically says that the covenant will not be ended.

As I said before, only the promise of Jewish continuance is everlasting. It could not be accomplished by a conditional Law that failed repeatedly. It had to be accomplished by what the NT Bible calls "mercy."

Great. So you admit that the NT is necessary for Christianity. Finally.

Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

LOL you talk about the NT but then quote my bible. Yes, God promises to redeem us whether we deserve it or not. Which throws your whole argument away. Sin doesn't sperate us from God.

Listing other means of atonement does not disprove the fact that among the 613 requirements exercising the priestly participation in atonement for Israel remains one of them. It is a fact that priestly rituals of atonement for Israel were required in the Law.

Which also didn't exist between 586BC and 516BC. So sacrifice is only part of the law when it's possible. Hence I'm not sure what your point is.

Failure of the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods in the matter of atonement indicated that the Law required an upgrade.

Did you not read the verses I posted?

Where does the bible say an "upgrade" is necessary?

While it's true that other means of atonement were available, the fact that the priesthood itself failed alone indicated the Law had failed in the matter of atonement.

The priesthood did not "fail". In fact it was a successful method of atonement for the ~500 years the first temple stood and ~500 years the second temple stood. And in the time between the temples, obviously prayer worked, because God did redeem the Jewish exiles.

King Solomon makes a plea in 2 Chronicles 6:  “When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to a land far away or near; and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly’;  and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their captivity where they were taken, and pray toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and toward the temple I have built for your Name;  then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their pleas, and uphold their cause. And forgive your people, who have sinned against you."

And God responds in 2 Chronicles 7 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people,  if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. "


God seems perfectly capable of forgiving His people. All they need to do is pray and ask for it.
 

Are you going to say that there is success under the Law if one breaks the commandment not to murder but succeeds in keeping the commandment to not commit adultery?

I'm going to say that a world with even a single good deed in it is infinitely better than a world without that good deed. And it's sad that you can't or won't see this.

Just as there was, in ancient times, a consensus of Hebrews that embraced both Judaism and paganism, today's Judaism embraces a liberal view of the Law

Upholding the law is a "liberal view"? LOL. And what is casting the law aside? "Conservative"?

that denies the problem of human sin and the need for atonement from God. It relies on a system that was designed by God only to be temporary until a "fix" could be made--one that "fulfills" the Law, as promised by the Prophets.

It relies on the fact that we can repent and ask God for forgiveness. Which we do. Daily.

The Jews themselves in Judaism therefore produced Christianity. It was not outside of Judaism, but only a remnant within Judaism. And even the idea of a "remnant" of faithful is biblical Judaism.

So the Jews who cast aside Judaism are the "real Jews", while the Jews who uphold Judaism are "not faithful". Like so much else, you completely invert everything here. Cheers.

[agnostic]

As I said before, only the promise of Jewish continuance is everlasting.

It's convenient how "everlasting" means "everlasting" when you're okay with it meaning it, but when the Law repeatedly calls itself "eternal," "everlasting," and "permanent" those words suddenly mean the exact opposite: temporary and destined to be replaced.

Language means nothing when it means whatever you need it to for your theology, regardless of context.

[Fenris]

As I said before, only the promise of Jewish continuance is everlasting.

It's convenient how "everlasting" means "everlasting" when you're okay with it meaning it, but when the Law repeatedly calls itself "eternal," "everlasting," and "permanent" those words suddenly mean the exact opposite: temporary and destined to be replaced.

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

-Lewis Carroll, Through The Looking Glass

[agnostic]

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

It's absolutely no different from that fundamentally dishonest self-serving verbal nihilism.

[RandyPNW]

As I said before, only the promise of Jewish continuance is everlasting.

It's convenient how "everlasting" means "everlasting" when you're okay with it meaning it, but when the Law repeatedly calls itself "eternal," "everlasting," and "permanent" those words suddenly mean the exact opposite: temporary and destined to be replaced.

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

-Lewis Carroll, Through The Looking Glass

Yes, unfortunately words do mean different things to different people, but I don't wish to play psychologist. If there is a scientific rule at all in language, it requires: "words mean what they mean in context."

"Everlasting" in the context of a conditional contract doesn't mean anything more than a "continuing" contract." But if there is no condition placed upon the contract, and if there is an "everlasting" guarantee, then indeed the promise is "everlasting."

If you need a looking glass to understand this, you read too much!

[RandyPNW]

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

It's absolutely no different from that fundamentally dishonest self-serving verbal nihilism.

An angry man can't see because he sees everything through the lens of his rage. He may not realize that his anger is misplaced.

I didn't lie to you, and I've never been dishonest with you. But you continue to mount an emotional defense that lacks conscience.

A law "for all your generations" is a *continuing* contract, up until the point where the contract disqualifies itself from continuing as such. That is, it is not stating that it will remain a contract forever, but only up until the point where one of the parties to the contract fails that contract. Then, it ceases to be a "continuing contract."

If you deny that the Law was a conditional contract, then it is you who are being dishonest. You are denying the very words of Scripture which claim God divorced Israel for failure to keep the covenant of Law. And you're failing to admit that national exile was, in fact, an expression of a completely-failed contract.

[col]

There is no way that I desire to become a Jew.
But I am an Israelite by faith and also probably by descent.

From the many signs and the indications from the Bible, we are now very close to the time when the Lord will again reset our civilization, as He did in the days of Noah.
We have been warned and eventually only the righteous believers in God will survive it all.

 I agree,

 There seems to be too much trying to get the flesh [including their own] into the Kingdom of God.

 It comes out in their doctrine.

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 

Col

[col]

 

 This might help.

 The 7 seals of the book of Rev. contain all events necessary to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

However Christ returns as shown in the 6th seal and the vials of wrath are begun to be poured in the 7th seal out as stated in Rev.ch 10 and the wrath only takes 30 days to occur as shown in Dan ch 12.

The trumpets occur leading up to Christs return in the 6th seal

 Check it out.

 Col.

[Oseas]

In relation to the Kingdom of GOD, this will not happen through "a magic realization or operation", it will be a conquer through conquerors under the command of the seventh angel. Revelation 11:v.14 to 18: Will be Michael?

14 The second *woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were (will be) angry(furious), and thy wrath -GOD's wrath- is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. (This prophecy will fulfill LITERALLY from now on, by the way, it is already running).


The second *woe  - Revelation 11:v.2-3 and 6
Jerusalem will be trodden under the command of MAN Beast of sea(sea means: peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues), at last, he is the main ruler and guide of a universal and false Christianity with headquarter in Rome, but he posses a structural religious and satanic MONSTER of 7 heads and 10 horns, and upon his horns 10 crowns, and upon his 7 heads the NAME of BLASPHEMY.  Therefore, when the COURT which is without the temple is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months, yeah, when the COURT is given to the Gentiles then the FIRST half of the last week of Daniel, the 70th, begins, and the MAN Beast of sea through the woman which rides upon him, the Roman CAtholic Church, he will ruler the satanic Antichrist's kingdom, together with the false messiah of the Jews-John 5:v.43-47, and 2 Thes. 2:v.4-9, and Revelation 13:v.11- in fact an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, tghe Beast of the earth with two horns like a lamb, a false lamb of course.   

By the way, one of the 7 heads of the Beast of sea -a Gentile Beast- will be wounded mortally (South America) in the current time, and the false messiah-John 5:v.43-, the Beast of earth(earth here is Israel, the clay, the dry land), will health the wound head Beast of sea. How? The false messiah will give him his Power, and his Seat, and great Authority to the MAN Beasts of sea, then the POPE, the MAN Beast of sea, will sit in the Throne of the false messiah in Jerusalem.

Then will fulfill LITERALLY Revelation 13:v.12 to 18:

12 He -the MAN Beast of earth- will exercise all the power of the FIRST Beast before him, and causeth the earth(Israel) and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast-the Pope-, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he -the false messiah- doeth (will do) great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth (Israel) by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Beast -the Beast of sea-; saying to them that dwell on the earth(Israel), that they should make an image to the Beast-Beast of sea-, which had the wound by a Sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the Beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the Beast: for it is the number of a MAN (MAN BEAST); and his number is 666.   

P.S.
The above Scriptures refer to the seventh and last Pope, think his nickname will be Paulus VII, in this way, the Pope Francis will die and another will be elected, and he will be the last Pope, probably the number 666 will be known in his name.

May our Lord GOD bless us, and give us His protection
Amen

[journeyman]

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms of this world have always belinged to God,

Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. Jb.41:11

If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Psa.50:12

to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, Dan.4:17

It's reasonable that people who say, "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ", have simply realized what has always been true.

[Oseas]

The kingdoms of this world have always belinged to God,

Luke 4:v.5-7
5 - The Devil, taking JESUS up into an high mountain, shewed unto him ALLl the kingdoms of the WORLD in a moment of time.
6 And the Devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. Jb.41:11

Through / by JESUS, GOD created the 1st, and 2nd, and the 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens? For GOD, the heavens are as curtains, understand? By the way, GOD created until the current time only the first two heavens which "by the same Word are kept in store, RESERVED unto FIRE at this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.  Will be you know what is heaven?

If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Psa.50:12

to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, Dan.4:17

GOD is in the control of history, nothing random happens; yes, "the Most High rules in the kingdom of men", and will give it to His only heir, the Lord JESUS Christ, by whom GOD made the worlds, do you understand?  The Scripture you quoted says: "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ" ;  and His people, the true believers, the true Christians, shall reign with Him a thousand years. - Rev. 20:v.6 and Luke 20:v.35-36-

It's reasonable that people who say, "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ", have simply realized what has always been true.

Who said that Scripture you have quoted in your post was the own JESUS, don't you know? The people who say the same things JESUS said are His disciples, and JESUS left very clear saying that "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. Matt.10:v.24-25

[journeyman]

Oseas said,
6 And the Devil said unto him

Believe the devil if you want, but our Lord said,

there is no truth in him Jn.8:44

Oseas said,
For GOD, the heavens are as curtains, understand?

I understand this very well. The creation we see is a mirror of heaven and disappears when people grow in Christ,

And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa.25:7

Oseas said,
"the Most High rules in the kingdom of men", and will give it to His only heir, the Lord JESUS Christ, by whom GOD made the worlds, do you understand?

I understand that as our Creator, Jesus didn't need to be given anything. He chose to be kind to people and let mankind continue to have what he owns

Oseas said,
Who said that Scripture you have quoted in your post was the own JESUS, don't you know?

I don't know what you mean by this, but my point is you seem to be mistaking Jesus's power with impotence.

[Oseas]

Believe the devil if you want,

What you are preaching I will never do, evidently, your words are a stumbling block in my path.

journeyman said, but our Lord said,
there is no truth in him Jn.8:44

Yes, the Scripture says that, but It's interesting that JESUS didn't refute or contradict the Devil, you also didn't have a word that would refute the Devil. Why?

Oseas said,
For GOD, the heavens are as curtains, understand?

journeyman said, I understand this very well. The creation we see is a mirror of heaven and disappears when people grow in Christ,

Things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Let me ask: Do you know what is/are heaven(s)? Or you only know what you see: the sky?

journeyman said, And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa.25:7

Yes, He will destroy surely.  He said: Isaiah 33:v.10 to 14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off (the Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(the Jewish people), acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Oseas said,
"the Most High rules in the kingdom of men", and will give it to His only heir, the Lord JESUS Christ, by whom GOD made the worlds, do you understand?

journeyman said, I understand that as our Creator, Jesus didn't need to be given anything. He chose to be kind to people and let mankind continue to have what he owns

You should understand that "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (Word of Devil) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev. 11:v.15. AND THE NATIONS will be angry, furious ... Rev.11:v.18

journeyman said, It's reasonable that people who say, "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ", have simply realized what has always been true.

Oseas said,
Who said that Scripture you have quoted in your post was the own JESUS, don't you know?

journeyman said, I don't know what you mean by this, but my point is you seem to be mistaking Jesus's power with impotence.

I meant that who said the biblical verse -"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever"-Revelation 11:v.15, was the own JESUS who said it. This assertion has nothing to do with impotence, quite the contrary, it has to do with Omnipotence, understand?  The people who say the same are disciples of JESUS and they confirm what JESUS said.
 

[journeyman]

What you are preaching I will never do.....

Quoting the devil as any source of truth is doing it.

Yes, the Scripture says that, but It's interesting that JESUS didn't refute or contradict the Devil.....

Yes he did refute and contradict the devil. Our Lord showed by his answers that Satan isn't God.

Yes, He will destroy surely.....

My point is that in Christ, the curtains are destroyed. It's not difficult to see how the earth is a reflection of the heavens.

You should understand that "The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (Word of Devil) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev. 11:v.15. AND THE NATIONS will be angry, furious ... Rev.11:v.18

I do understand right now that all kinddoms of this world are the Fathers and Sons. Tell the nations. You'll get an angry response.

I meant that who said This assertion has nothing to do with impotence, quite the contrary, it has to do with Omnipotence, understand?

I understand that for an Omnipotent God to lose possession of the kingdoms of this world for even a millisecond, would be impotence.