81
« Last post by Fenris on March 18, 2025, 03:12:01 PM »
God's Word, especially in the Old Testament Books of the prophets, often does that switch of topics. How do you know? Wouldn't it make God's communication with man impossible? "I'm sayin this right here, but in the next verse, even though I use the same exact word, it actually means something different. But you have to guess when I do that." the blind Pharisees LOL this again? Well, sorry to say, but that brand of Zionism is false, It's Zionism. You may not like or agree with the concept, but that's what it it. and is held by NON-believing Jews who still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. Most Jews believe in God, so I'm not sure that using the term "non-believing" is exactly accurate. But the false idea that Christ comes to gather His Church and takes them to Heaven, while the seed of Israel is gathered back to the holy land in final, is a belief of Dispentationalists that also hold to man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Thus there are Christian Churches which believe that, and therefore have no problem with the NON-believing Jews brand of Zionism. Some of those Christian Churches today even help... those NON-believing Jews with their future plans to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem and startup Old Testamnent style worship again. I do not adhere to that at all, and I see that as an abomination. You're going to have to take this up with them. The reason why I am detailing the "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor of Isaiah 54:1 But the rest of the words don't fit the chapter, so I'm having difficulty seeing the connection. is because of how The New Testament Scriptures uses it about those who will be deceived at the end, particularly un-believing Jews. For Jews today that believe on Lord Jesus as The Christ, they should actually be at the forefront of this type of warning from Scripture, for the sake of their deceived NON-believing Jews.
Nah, we're good.
82
« Last post by davy on March 18, 2025, 03:04:33 PM »
You lost me. Just because he mentions the barren doesn't mean he's quoting Is. 54. And verse 30 is from Hosea 10.
Oh but yes Jesus is... quoting from Isaiah 54:1. You're not one of those who deny relevant Bible Scripture in another Book that may not use the 'exact' same wording as the other Book, are you? Those who do that just are making excuses to not heed the Scripture. Let's see... Luke 23:29 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' KJV
Isa 54:1 54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. KJVSame idea, little bit different wording between the two verses.
83
« Last post by davy on March 18, 2025, 02:57:46 PM »
So the metaphor switches in the middle of the chapter? I find this rather unconvincing.
God's Word, especially in the Old Testament Books of the prophets, often does that switch of topics. It's actually done in just about every Book of The Bible, so I'm surprised you are not aware of that fact. I'd also say that you have failed to spot how Jabez got added to the lineage of Judah given in 1 Chronicles 4:9-10 when no linage info is given there about him. Now that is... an abrupt change of subject that God did in His Word that sadly, some have a hard time figuring out why. (1 Chronicles 2:55 reveals why, but some don't understand about those scribes mentioned there either, nor their connection with the blind Pharisees that wanted Jesus executed). Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people deserve self determination, as other peoples do. Since Jews don't believe in Jesus, it has nothing to do with "Christ's coming".
Well, sorry to say, but that brand of Zionism is false, and is held by NON-believing Jews who still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. But the false idea that Christ comes to gather His Church and takes them to Heaven, while the seed of Israel is gathered back to the holy land in final, is a belief of Dispentationalists that also hold to man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Thus there are Christian Churches which believe that, and therefore have no problem with the NON-believing Jews brand of Zionism. Some of those Christian Churches today even help... those NON-believing Jews with their future plans to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem and startup Old Testamnent style worship again. I do not adhere to that at all, and I see that as an abomination. The reason why I am detailing the "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor of Isaiah 54:1 is because of how The New Testament Scriptures uses it about those who will be deceived at the end, particularly un-believing Jews. For Jews today that believe on Lord Jesus as The Christ, they should actually be at the forefront of this type of warning from Scripture, for the sake of their deceived NON-believing Jews.
84
« Last post by Fenris on March 18, 2025, 02:56:25 PM »
(Continued... from my 2nd Post)
Lord Jesus when He was on His way to be crucified quoted that Isaiah 54 metaphor about the barren. You lost me. Just because he mentions the barren doesn't mean he's quoting Is. 54. And verse 30 is from Hosea 10. Deceived Jews What, this again? LOL.
85
« Last post by davy on March 18, 2025, 02:41:42 PM »
(Continued... from my 2nd Post)
Lord Jesus when He was on His way to be crucified quoted that Isaiah 54 metaphor about the barren. He quoted it to the "daughters of Jerusalem" that were on the side weeping for Him as He went up to be crucified.
Luke 23:26-30 26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" KJV
Lord Jesus said to those Jewish women weeping for Him that the day would come when they and their children, will say that...
"Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
Why and when... will those daughters and children of the Jews be saying that "Blessed are the barren..." from Isaiah 54:1?
It's because of the meaning of the heart of that metaphor which God gave in Isaiah 54:1, and that Apostle Paul pulled from in 2 Cor.11 about Christ's Church when gathered to Christ.
Who is Lord Jesus pointing to that will be saying that "Blessed are the barren..."? Deceived Jews in Jerusalem at the end when Jesus finally appears to them, and then realize they have been deceived. And thus they will appear in shame when Jesus appears, and will wish for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us". Those are metaphors for shame.
Thus the deceived Jews in Jerusalem when Jesus comes, those "Daughters of Jerusalem" and their "children", will be saying that "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor about the Faithful in Christ that wait for His coming "as a chaste virgin". Jesus Christ is our True Husband, "thy Maker" and "Husband" of the Isaiah 54:5 Scripture.
And another important part of that Isaiah 54:1 metaphor which is quoted in The New Testament is the idea of 'travailing with child'. That's simply about the idea of a woman who is pregnant and in labor pangs. That is part of the Isaiah 54:1 metaphor, "thou that didst not travail with child". That metaphor is used throughout The Old Testament, especially in the Book of Jeremiah because of the king of Babylon coming upon Jerusalem to destroy back in Israel's history.
In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul uses the "travail with child" metaphor about the deceived at the end of this world that will be claiming, "Peace and safety", but then in final "sudden destruction" will come upon them...
1 Thess 5:2-4 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child[/u]; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. KJV
That "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night" is the last day of this present world when Christ Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His saints will happen. On that same 'day', the deceived will be surprised and shocked when they see Jesus coming in the clouds, and thus their shame will be like a woman travailing with child. Paul is therefore using that travail with child idea as a symbol for the 'deceived' just prior to Christ's future return.
Lord Jesus in The Gospel of Matthew and of Luke also used a portion of that "thou that didst travail with child" idea from the Isaiah 54:1 "Blessed are the barre..." metaphor. He used about those "with child" for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world just prior to His return...
Matt 24:18-21 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV
Now it is very simple to interpret the above "... woe unto them that are with child" idea being literally about a pregnant woman struggling in that future time of the "great tribulation", not being able to prepare to be caught up by Christ, or escape the city. But child birth is a Blessing per The LORD. So how is Lord Jesus using this "... woe unto them that are with child" at this point in time for the end? There's another example He gives in Luke 21 about the end...
Luke 21:22-23 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. KJV
Why will there be "... wrath upon this people" who are "with child"? Is that literally just about pregnant women in that time? And what timing exactly is that "days of vengeance, that all things are written may be fulfilled"? That "days of vengeance" is actually a reference to Jesus' future 2nd coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world. (And yeah I know that some interpret this being about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem because of the next 24th verse. But recall that Jesus' mention of not one stone atop another prophecy is a dual-fulfillment type prophecy, once as a partial-fulfillment for 70 A.D. by the Romans, and the second time as a complete-fulfillment on the day of Christ's future coming.)
At the middle of the Luke 21:24 verse, it mentions Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. That's a last days event, not a 70 A.D. event. It is pointing to our near future of Revelation 11:1-3 about the future Jewish 3rd temple in Jerusalem to be built for the coming "great tribulation", with the outer court left for the Gentiles, and they shall tread the city for 42 months (i.e., the 3.5 years, or 1260 days of the Book of Daniel about the last days "great tribulation".)
in reality then, that "wrath" upon those "with child" at the end just prior to Christ's future return, is being used as a warning, because Apostle Paul says in 1 Thess.5:9 that those in Christ are not appointed to God's wrath.
(Continued...)
86
« Last post by Fenris on March 18, 2025, 02:30:34 PM »
Yes, the Isaiah 54:10-13 section in particular is about Jerusalem.
But the previous Isaiah 54:1-5 section is especially about the new Jerusalem
So the metaphor switches in the middle of the chapter? I find this rather unconvincing. Some believe men's doctrines that when Jesus Christ comes to gather His Church, that He takes them to Heaven while the Jews are gathered back to the holy land. I do not hold to that tradition of men. why can't the bible mean what it says? And that is kind of what Zionism is about that some Jews believe, the idea that only the seed of Israel is gathered back to the holy land at Christ's coming. Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people deserve self determination, as other peoples do. Since Jews don't believe in Jesus, it has nothing to do with "Christ's coming".
87
« Last post by davy on March 18, 2025, 01:44:31 PM »
The barren mother in Is. 54 is an obvious metaphor for Zion, that is to say, Jerusalem. It's a common theme that Isaiha uses. Some examples: ....
Yes, the Isaiah 54:10-13 section in particular is about Jerusalem. But the previous Isaiah 54:1-5 section is especially about the new Jerusalem regarding Christ's Church there in final, and is where Apostle Paul is quoting from in 2 Corinthians 11. Isa 54:1-5 1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine Husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called. KJVSome believe men's doctrines that when Jesus Christ comes to gather His Church, that He takes them to Heaven while the Jews are gathered back to the holy land. I do not hold to that tradition of men. And that is kind of what Zionism is about that some Jews believe, the idea that only the seed of Israel is gathered back to the holy land at Christ's coming. That Isaiah 54:2-3 Scripture is about the believing seed of Israel inheriting the believing Gentiles, and both together make the desolate cities in the holy land inhabited. This is why Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:2 desired to present the Church as "a chaste virgin" to their Husband Jesus Christ. Paul was pulling those ideas from the Isaiah 54:1-5 Scripture.
88
My days of being a moderator are done. I am an admin on too many christian facebook groups to have time even post...much less moderate...lol
89
« Last post by Fenris on March 18, 2025, 12:04:12 PM »
The barren mother in Is. 54 is an obvious metaphor for Zion, that is to say, Jerusalem. It's a common theme that Isaiha uses. Some examples:
Is. 49: Yet the children of your bereavement will say in your hearing, ‘This place is too small for us; make room for us to live here.’ Then you will say in your heart, ‘Who has begotten these for me? I was bereaved and barren; I was exiled and rejected. So who has reared them? Look, I was left all alone, so where did they come from?’”
The whole chapter of Is. 62.
Is. 66 “Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before she was in pain, she delivered a boy. Who has heard of such as this? Who has seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be delivered in an instant? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children."
etc
90
« Last post by Fenris on March 18, 2025, 11:52:35 AM »
I don't see how anyone could miss the following Zech.12 connection with the future battle of Armageddon on the last day of this world, which is what the invading armies out of the northern quarters upon Israel of Ezekiel 38 is about. And yet Zechariah 12 mentions the world turning against Israel, and Ezekiel 38 talks about Gog and Magog. So perhaps they are separate and distinct events? It is certainly a biblical concept that negative prophecies can be prevented via repentance. See Jonah, for example. The Talmud (redacted between the 1st and 5th century) tentatively identifies Magog as "Gramamiah". Medieval commentator Rashi (1040-1105) claims that this refers to Germany. So perhaps this event has already occurred? Nor does it make sense with anyone claiming Russia has no connection to the nations list of Ezekiel 38 which points to Islamic nations coming up against Israel that have been supported by Russia.
The truth is that nobody knows. Esau represented by Russia is more viable an argument than Rome. Shrug. I see Jewish hatred of Rome a lot on various forums.
Most Jews don't hate anybody. If you knew any in person you would know that. As for the Zech.12:10-14 verses, the subject there is about the Jew's mourning for Christ Jesus when He appears. That is pointing to unbelieving Jews, not believers on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ...
The subject is Jews mourning those who have been killed. An event that is currently occuring. and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him
"They shall look upon me and mourn for him"? This is terrible grammar because it's a bad translation. The Hebrew reads "They shall look to me because of those who have been stabbed, and mourn as one mourns over an only son". Again, this is happening in Israel right now as murdered hostages have been returned. Everyone in the country has mourned over the Bibas kids, Ariel and Kfir, aged 4 years old and 9 months old, as if they were their own children. As a result, Jews who were long secular (although it really means something different in Israel) have suddenly become religious, keeping the Sabbath and eating Kosher and praying daily. That is about the deceived Jews As I said, Jews are not "decieved". We're free thinkers who are perfectly capable of judging evidence and making up our own minds. that have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. It's plain that he did not fill the messianic prophecies as written. If you believe that they will be fulfilled in a second coming, all the power to you. I don't see anything wrong with holding God to His promises, so we're still waiting. And when Jesus appears in Jerusalem on the day of His future coming, and they see Him, they will be in shame, Or maybe you'll be ashamed, who knows? Isaiah 54: “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood. For your Maker is your husband— the Lord Almighty is his name— the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit— a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God. “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord your Redeemer."
So I don't have to personally... know, or contact a bunch of Jewish folks to see if that Scripture is correct or not. I know it is correct and means what it says as written. And I'm reading it in the original Klingon, err, Hebrew, and I'm saying the same thing. It's correct as written. It is more likely that many Jews, mainly unbelieving Jews, are not aware of Apostle Paul's teaching in Romans 11 about them, that God has placed "the spirit of slumber" upon them blinding them spiritually away from The Gospel, and that blindness won't be removed from the majority of the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Again if it pleases you to believe this, that's fine. But such beliefs hold no power over me.
|
Better known as
by Sojourner
Today at 11:09:34 PM
|
The ECF and theosis
by watchinginawe
Today at 10:04:56 PM
|
The Jews will be kept safe in the Great Tribulation
by Billy Evmur
Today at 05:51:25 PM
|
Watcha doing?
by Fenris
Yesterday at 11:12:46 AM
|
Is free will a failed concept?
by Fenris
March 29, 2025, 10:53:14 PM
|
Gog's endtime construction?
by Fenris
March 29, 2025, 08:59:05 PM
|
How to reconcile?
by shepherdsword
March 29, 2025, 01:11:46 PM
|
I was a Moderator here once before
by shepherdsword
March 29, 2025, 01:08:03 PM
|
Prayer for my wife
by ProDeo
March 29, 2025, 04:09:58 AM
|
NEW, davy from USA
by IMINXTC
March 27, 2025, 10:24:51 PM
|
The seven seals and how they relate to Matthew 24
by shepherdsword
March 25, 2025, 01:11:33 PM
|
Ash Wednesday / Lent
by Fenris
March 23, 2025, 11:06:23 AM
|
Blessed Are The Barren...
by Athanasius
March 20, 2025, 04:25:09 AM
|
US Presidental Election
by RabbiKnife
March 18, 2025, 08:02:52 PM
|
Plot holes
by Fenris
March 18, 2025, 04:51:14 PM
|
Zechariah 12
by Fenris
March 18, 2025, 11:52:35 AM
|
How Do I Know God Exists?
by davy
March 18, 2025, 12:05:31 AM
|
A big shout out to all of the old (and new) gang
by Kingfisher
March 17, 2025, 08:33:21 AM
|
Looking at Col. 2:16
by watchinginawe
March 16, 2025, 06:40:06 PM
|
Contents of Invitation Email I sent out yesterday to 19 former BF members
by Sojourner
March 16, 2025, 06:00:57 PM
|
|
|