BibleForums Christian Message Board

Quote from: RabbiKnife on October 21, 2021, 11:13:49 AM

Do you believe that sinners pay the penalty for their sin in hell?

I believe God's wrath falls on the unrepentant.

And why does it ? Because God's wrath falls on sin and sinners. Of which Christ became on our behalf.

Quote from: Slug1 on October 19, 2021, 04:07:53 PM

Quote from: Pbminimum on October 19, 2021, 11:53:12 AM

It's exactly that. This is where humanism ultimately arrives at.

How many scriptures are in complete opposition to this view ? Christ had to suffer the full penalty of the law before the Old Covenant could be done away with and the new could be ushered in.  For example, under the Old Covenant, why was there ever a need for sacrifice at all ? Because sin brings God's judgment and God's judgment brings death. It satisfied Gods wrath. Galatians 3 and basically the entire book of Hebrews tells us very plainly that only Christ could satisfy the judgment of God. How ? He was judged.

Did it, or did it not please the Father to crush the Son. After all, scripture couldn't be clearer that it did. And if it did, why did it ? Do we honestly believe that Christ, our Champion of heaven, Creator of the Universe, The Almighty God, dreaded the scorn and punishment of men when he was stressed in the Garden to the point of sweating blood ? Surely not. He was humanity was suffering only because He knew for the first time in eternity that He would be separated from His Father, and that He would become sin and the propitiation for it.  Food for thought.

I also raised the garden and in his response, all I received was a twisted version of what the verses are saying. Again, this amounts to resisting the truth of the scriptures.


In a nut shell, this is what I can conclude of Journeyman's theology. God the Son came to earth as a man, Jesus, who allowed man to express "their" wrath against Him but as they were killing Him, He expressed mercy and thus, mankind can now be reconciled with God.

Yeah. That's unfortunate. That theology just takes you around the block and you still end up with mankind's sin and the consequences of it being dismissed instead of being conquered.

I'd also add what I've heard someone preach about concerning this topic. Are we to believe that the champion of our faith were to have done nothing more significant than what many of the martyr's throughout the past couple of thousand years have done ?  After all many have suffered persecution at the hands of this world. None of which can compare to the wrath of God.

Quote from: Pbminimum on October 19, 2021, 09:57:03 AM

Quote

Sinners are brought into communion with God by the mercy Jesus showed them. God didn't pour his wrath out on his Son. Mankind did and Jesus patiently endured the abuse, instead of dropping the hammer.

Do you understand that there are no Catechisms, Statements of Faith, or any of the early church Fathers writings that agree with your view ? This should concern you. Also, when you hold this view you would also need to hold the view that there is no literal hell. Why ? God's wrath ( which is real by the way ) is nowhere in your doctrines, even though it is very, very clear in the scriptures.

If Jesus didn't suffer God's wrath ( no mans ) then He is not just. If it was mans wrath poured out an Christ and not God's, then Christ needed not come at all. This doctrine is a house of cards that doesn't line up with any scripture. It puts man in control of his own destiny and makes us judge. jury and executioner- not God. It also makes grace of no effect because the only one who can offer grace is the one put His own judgment on another.

I mentioned in an earlier post of mine that when one really views Journeyman's theology, it is a "works" based theology.

It's exactly that. This is where humanism ultimately arrives at.

How many scriptures are in complete opposition to this view ? Christ had to suffer the full penalty of the law before the Old Covenant could be done away with and the new could be ushered in.  For example, under the Old Covenant, why was there ever a need for sacrifice at all ? Because sin brings God's judgment and God's judgment brings death. It satisfied Gods wrath. Galatians 3 and basically the entire book of Hebrews tells us very plainly that only Christ could satisfy the judgment of God. How ? He was judged.

Did it, or did it not please the Father to crush the Son. After all, scripture couldn't be clearer that it did. And if it did, why did it ? Do we honestly believe that Christ, our Champion of heaven, Creator of the Universe, The Almighty God, dreaded the scorn and punishment of men when he was stressed in the Garden to the point of sweating blood ? Surely not. He was humanity was suffering only because He knew for the first time in eternity that He would be separated from His Father, and that He would become sin and the propitiation for it.  Food for thought.

Of course my religion has faith in it. Every religion does. Why do you make outlandish statements like this?

If the object of our faith is not sufficient, then one could claim that our faith is bankrupt, or is a false faith.

You're not a discerner of the thoughts and intents of my heart.

Is it harder to believe that a Sovereign God would pour out His wrath on the only One who could become sin on our behalf, thereby satisfying God's just nature

or

Believing that feeble men could inflict this justice through their own unrighteous anger themselves ?

The latter does not, in any way, satisfy God's wrath. In fact, it would only bring more.

This helps ! I was curious as to what happened for some time. The old site got a lot of traffic and had some great conversation. Hope to see some of the old bunch drop in as well.