BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: Reddogs on May 30, 2026, 03:18:59 PM
-
Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.
"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.
"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.
"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.
"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.
"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.
"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.
This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:
"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.
Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.
Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.
"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.
The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.
Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?
"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.
The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.
"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.
Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.
"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.
We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.
-
That’s funny
The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors
You read a funny Bible
I’ll ask again
Are you Seventh Day Adventist?
-
This guy is just spamming the same threads that he's posted elsewhere over the last few years. Is he engaging enough to keep around?
-
Not exactly a riveting conversationalist
-
That’s funny
The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors
You read a funny Bible
I’ll ask again
Are you Seventh Day Adventist?
Yes, now to your question. We know that Jesus did not go to Paradise after His death that day as He was buried and remained in the tomb until His resurrection. The day of His resurrection He appeared to Mary, stating that He had “not yet ascended to My Father” but that now He was ascending to "My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”.
John 20:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
The obvious implication is that He could not have promised the thief that He would be with him in Paradise on Friday. and Jesus and the thief did not die at the same time as Jesus died Friday and the thief was still alive, and his legs were broken to keep him from escaping as it usually took several days for those who were crucified to die. The thief addressed Christ on the cross:
...Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42
He was looking at a future event, asking to be remembered on the day of final rewards. He was looking forward to the Second Coming. Jesus reply to the thief on the cross was:
Verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43.
Was the thief in Paradise with Christ today" on Friday afternoon or evening? The answer is no, as Christ Himself had not even ascended into Heaven by that time, as we saw from what He stated on Sunday morning.
Touch Me not for I am not ascended to My Father. John 20:17
If Christ had not ascended to Heaven by Sunday the resurrection morning, neither had the thief.
The reason for this confusion is to be sought in the fact that the original New Testament was written in Greek unicals which had each word running into the next without spacing or stops or verses as we now have. It was only after 1557 that verse divisions were introduced to the Biblical writings. The correct placing of the comma in Luke 23:43 is vital to our understanding of the text. Placing the comma after the "today" renders the text as follows:
Verily, I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.
Harmony then exists between this text and the statement in John 20:17 that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven. The thief merely received the promise on the day of his crucifixion that he would be in heaven when the Lord set up His Kingdom.
-
This guy is just spamming the same threads that he's posted elsewhere over the last few years. Is he engaging enough to keep around?
What do you expect for a techie. I've been on various forums for twenty years, started trying to save our neighborhood from the county. The county commissioners just voted to take everything below us by eminent domain, so we are still fighting.
-
Not exactly a riveting conversationalist
When you all say 'Oy vey' its not conducive for 'coversation' IMHO... :-\
-
Significant difference between talking at someone and talking with them.
-
Significant difference between talking at someone and talking with them.
Well whats 'Oy Vey', a dissertation?
-
What do you expect for a techie. I've been on various forums for twenty years, started trying to save our neighborhood from the county. The county commissioners just voted to take everything below us by eminent domain, so we are still fighting.
Fight away, oh copy pasta techie.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
-
We’uns read good like we wuz learnt .
It’s opinion without conversation— lecturing ones lesses— than is not engaging
-
Opinion is good, but when you ignore any truth and let it drift in the wind, then what do you have left..
-
So getting back on point, the reason people have not gone to heaven or hell for that matter is that they must first be judged....
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
And it begins with the saints, so no one has been judged worthy of hell to say the least and begins with the saints...
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
-
1. Does it matter?
2. Can anyone or anything change one’s eternal destiny after death?
3. If it doesn’t matter and no one can change their eternal destiny after death, exactly why are we worrying about a solution is search if a problem, especially if the offered “solution” is as speculative as the alternative?
-
And the first passage deals with believers after they are in heaven
The second has to do with God’s chastising work of purification of the church here on earth…
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
-
1. Does it matter?
2. Can anyone or anything change one’s eternal destiny after death?
3. If it doesn’t matter and no one can change their eternal destiny after death, exactly why are we worrying about a solution is search if a problem, especially if the offered “solution” is as speculative as the alternative?
Thats why you must choose now, and repent and turn to Christ today...
-
And the first passage deals with believers after they are in heaven
The second has to do with God’s chastising work of purification of the church here on earth…
Lets look,
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The saints are judged before they enter heaven, they come before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The purpose is to verify eligibility for God’s eternal kingdom. the believers whose names are in the “Lamb’s book of life” are reviewed so this now is the "house of God" part.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Now you see the execution of this judgement at the separation of the sheep(saints) and the goats (wicked) as Christ Second Coming where only the saints will be taken up and go to the heavenly kingdom.
Matthew 25:31-3$
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
This is what Christians have held for centuries from the early church, but lately we have been seeing deviations from the adversary arising.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
-
This guy is just spamming the same threads that he's posted elsewhere over the last few years. Is he engaging enough to keep around?
What do you expect for a techie. I've been on various forums for twenty years, started trying to save our neighborhood from the county. The county commissioners just voted to take everything below us by eminent domain, so we are still fighting.
Here is the commissioners vote on taking our houses and properties.... "While there isn't a need to expand Collier County's landfill yet, the county is planning for it.
At a meeting May 12, county commissioners voted unanimously in favor of an expansion to the east, which will require the purchase of more land.
Commissioners supported the recommendations of outside consultants and county staff, who determined that an eastward expansion would make the most sense technically and financially."
https://ftw.usatoday.com/story/money/business/local/2026/05/18/collier-county-landfill-expansion-approved-acres-cost-phases-garbage-hazardous-waste-recycling/90100780007/
Many of our friends and neighbors properties have already been 'eminent domained' and given measly buyouts. The 10 acre farm of my mother in law was taken and they used the excused it had 'too many invasive' plants and was spreading them, even though the county properties nearby have the same invasives. We have fought them tooth and nail for 20 years and the other night our friends and neighbors had a meeting to see how to stop their landgrab, but we are' fighting city hall' on this one, but wont go down without a fight (and lawyers)..
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.
SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
SDA's are trained not to answer that question.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.
SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.
How is the text from scripture not Gods words of truth...? If I have misconstrued or misinterpreted, then lets discuss the text and meaning, as it says iron sharpens iron, but we must seek truth not just try to defend mans ideas or Greek philosophy allowed to come into the church.
-
Now lets see if we can get back on topic rather than find ways to destroy the messenger or wipe out the message.
-
So lets look at some of the Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul that crept into the church and have twisted truth. We have many today who have been told they dont have to worry, they will be gone up to heaven when they die because their 'soul' has gone up and have nothing to worry about. Well, lets look closer as scripture tells us the "soul" is a living, breathing creature, the full human being. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An 'immortal soul' is never dead and has no need to repent or of Christs gift of eternal life.
Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise
Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.
I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.
What Happens When We Die
Scripture says it plainly.
Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."
Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing
Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.
Death Compared to Sleep
Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,
1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.
When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.
John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".
Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?
Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.
Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.
SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.
How is the text from scripture not Gods words of truth...? If I have misconstrued or misinterpreted, then lets discuss the text and meaning, as it says iron sharpens iron, but we must seek truth not just try to defend mans ideas or Greek philosophy allowed to come into the church.
Who said I disagreed? Right now we're interested in whether you represent the SDA position or some other position. It would be helpful to know because then we could interact with you better. For example, replying to you knowing you're SDA is different from replying to you knowing you found Wrights position compelling.
Right now you just seem shady.
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.
SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.
How is the text from scripture not Gods words of truth...? If I have misconstrued or misinterpreted, then lets discuss the text and meaning, as it says iron sharpens iron, but we must seek truth not just try to defend mans ideas or Greek philosophy allowed to come into the church.
Who said I disagreed? Right now we're interested in whether you represent the SDA position or some other position. It would be helpful to know because then we could interact with you better. For example, replying to you knowing you're SDA is different from replying to you knowing you found Wrights position compelling.
Right now you just seem shady.
Well my background is history, but here is the Adventist belief. (As for Wright, it appears from what I have read, that he has gone off on a deep tangent in error and needs to go back to core beliefs of Christianity of the early church.)
The State of the Dead
Death and Resurrection
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed.
Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord.
The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.
(Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)
Adventists believe that death is like a sleep until Jesus Christ returns. At that time, those who died in Christ will be resurrected, and the unrighteous will also be resurrected. This belief is supported by various biblical passages, including Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4, and Daniel 12:2
Adventists emphasize that the dead know nothing and are in a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection. This belief is a cornerstone of their theology and provides a clear understanding of the state of the dead and the hope for eternal life.
So we see what Gods Word says how was man made in Gen 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.
When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.
The Breath is the Spirit
We are given in Gods Word, how was man formed? (Body + breath = living soul)
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
What is the breath? Breath is equated with the spirit of God.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.
At death the body returns to dust while the spirit is said to return to God who gave it.
(Silver cord = spine, golden bowl = skull, pitcher = heart, wheel = lungs)
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
When we are born our breath, as drawn from the surrounding atmosphere, may be said to come from or be given by God and with the same propriety may it be said, when it leaves the body at death to return unto Him. At death the breath or spirit of man is said to be gathered unto God.
Job 34:14 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he [God] gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Christ understood that his spirit would return to God at death.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Once a man’s spirit or breath is gone his thoughts perish.
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The dead know nothing they are unconscious. All their thoughts and feelings are gone.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Man is of so little account because his fragile life only remains while he has breath.
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Man has no pre-eminence over animals. We all die the same. It cannot be proved whether the spirit goes up or downward. The pagan belief was that the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of animals goes down but Solomon says we have the same spirit as the animals and it can’t be proved where the spirit goes at death.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
The breath of life is the spirit which God has given both man and beast. It is common to all living things and is not a distinguishing characteristic of man. The dead cannot praise God.
Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
The dead cannot give thanks to God.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
The dead are silent, they do not praise God.
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
But God can reverse the death process by creating new bodies and renewing the spirit or breath in them.
Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Part 2 – The Unconscious State of the Dead
Death is compared to sleep so there must be some analogy between a state of sleep and a state of death, and this analogy must pertain to that which renders sleep a peculiar condition. Our condition in sleep differs from our condition when awake simply in this, that when we are soundly asleep, we are entirely unconscious. In this respect death is like sleep; that is, the dead are unconscious. This figure is frequently used to represent the condition of the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Christ himself represented death as a sleep saying Lazarus was asleep in death. Lazarus would have remained unconscious sleeping in the grave until the resurrection had he not been raised by Christ.
John 11:11 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
At death Stephen commended his spirit to God. His spirit being departed he fell asleep becoming unconscious.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Christ slept in death being entirely unconscious in death.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
When Christ died He commended His spirit into the hands of His Father and gave ghost. But Christ did not ascend to the Father as a ghost or a spirit, otherwise after His resurrection He would not have said “I am not yet ascended to my Father.” Christ remained dead in the grave unconscious until He arose again.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
David did not ascend to heaven at death but is dead and buried.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Some of the Christians who had witnessed Christ alive after his resurrection had themselves died. They had fallen asleep in Christ. But why were they not conscious and awake in heaven if that is where Christians go when they die?
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Part 3 – The Resurrection
Paul told the Christians in Corinth to put their hope in the resurrection of the dead and that without a resurrection their faith was in vain. Paul told them that those who were asleep in Christ would be made alive at the Second Coming of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Christ promised his disciples that He would come again to receive them unto Himself. Was He lying to them? Why didn’t Christ say that they should come to Him instead in the form of some departed spirit?
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica not to sorrow about death as others do because at the Second Coming God would bring forth from the grave those who slept in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Job says the dead are sleeping in the grave waiting for the appointed time. Waiting for the day of resurrection when the heavens are rolled together Rev 6:14 at the Second Coming.
Job 14:10-15 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Paul preached the resurrection of the dead and not departed spirits to those who knew nothing of the gospel.
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter
Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead. He did not seek to go straight to heaven.
Philippians 3:11 If by any means I [Paul] might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
1. Paul taught both the Christians in Corinth and Thessalonica that their hope was in the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming.
2. Paul preached the resurrection of the dead to the Greek philosophers who knew nothing of the gospel.
3. Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead.
Resurrection is God’s appointed method of bringing souls back to life.
https://adventist.org/beliefs/official/death-and-resurrection
-
Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...
That's a bizarre assumption.
So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.
Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?
I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".
SDA, Wright, or something else?
Does Gods truth change?
God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.
SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.
How is the text from scripture not Gods words of truth...? If I have misconstrued or misinterpreted, then lets discuss the text and meaning, as it says iron sharpens iron, but we must seek truth not just try to defend mans ideas or Greek philosophy allowed to come into the church.
Who said I disagreed? Right now we're interested in whether you represent the SDA position or some other position. It would be helpful to know because then we could interact with you better. For example, replying to you knowing you're SDA is different from replying to you knowing you found Wrights position compelling.
Right now you just seem shady.
Well my background is history, but here is the Adventist belief. (As for Wright, it appears from what I have read, that he has gone off on a deep tangent in error and needs to go back to core beliefs of Christianity of the early church.)
The State of the Dead
Death and Resurrection
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed.
Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord.
The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.
(Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)
Adventists believe that death is like a sleep until Jesus Christ returns. At that time, those who died in Christ will be resurrected, and the unrighteous will also be resurrected. This belief is supported by various biblical passages, including Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4, and Daniel 12:2
Adventists emphasize that the dead know nothing and are in a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection. This belief is a cornerstone of their theology and provides a clear understanding of the state of the dead and the hope for eternal life.
So we see what Gods Word says how was man made in Gen 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.
When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.
The Breath is the Spirit
We are given in Gods Word, how was man formed? (Body + breath = living soul)
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
What is the breath? Breath is equated with the spirit of God.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.
At death the body returns to dust while the spirit is said to return to God who gave it.
(Silver cord = spine, golden bowl = skull, pitcher = heart, wheel = lungs)
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
When we are born our breath, as drawn from the surrounding atmosphere, may be said to come from or be given by God and with the same propriety may it be said, when it leaves the body at death to return unto Him. At death the breath or spirit of man is said to be gathered unto God.
Job 34:14 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he [God] gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Christ understood that his spirit would return to God at death.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Once a man’s spirit or breath is gone his thoughts perish.
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The dead know nothing they are unconscious. All their thoughts and feelings are gone.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Man is of so little account because his fragile life only remains while he has breath.
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
Man has no pre-eminence over animals. We all die the same. It cannot be proved whether the spirit goes up or downward. The pagan belief was that the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of animals goes down but Solomon says we have the same spirit as the animals and it can’t be proved where the spirit goes at death.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
The breath of life is the spirit which God has given both man and beast. It is common to all living things and is not a distinguishing characteristic of man. The dead cannot praise God.
Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
The dead cannot give thanks to God.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
The dead are silent, they do not praise God.
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
But God can reverse the death process by creating new bodies and renewing the spirit or breath in them.
Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Part 2 – The Unconscious State of the Dead
Death is compared to sleep so there must be some analogy between a state of sleep and a state of death, and this analogy must pertain to that which renders sleep a peculiar condition. Our condition in sleep differs from our condition when awake simply in this, that when we are soundly asleep, we are entirely unconscious. In this respect death is like sleep; that is, the dead are unconscious. This figure is frequently used to represent the condition of the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Christ himself represented death as a sleep saying Lazarus was asleep in death. Lazarus would have remained unconscious sleeping in the grave until the resurrection had he not been raised by Christ.
John 11:11 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
At death Stephen commended his spirit to God. His spirit being departed he fell asleep becoming unconscious.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Christ slept in death being entirely unconscious in death.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
When Christ died He commended His spirit into the hands of His Father and gave ghost. But Christ did not ascend to the Father as a ghost or a spirit, otherwise after His resurrection He would not have said “I am not yet ascended to my Father.” Christ remained dead in the grave unconscious until He arose again.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
David did not ascend to heaven at death but is dead and buried.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Some of the Christians who had witnessed Christ alive after his resurrection had themselves died. They had fallen asleep in Christ. But why were they not conscious and awake in heaven if that is where Christians go when they die?
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Part 3 – The Resurrection
Paul told the Christians in Corinth to put their hope in the resurrection of the dead and that without a resurrection their faith was in vain. Paul told them that those who were asleep in Christ would be made alive at the Second Coming of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Christ promised his disciples that He would come again to receive them unto Himself. Was He lying to them? Why didn’t Christ say that they should come to Him instead in the form of some departed spirit?
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica not to sorrow about death as others do because at the Second Coming God would bring forth from the grave those who slept in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Job says the dead are sleeping in the grave waiting for the appointed time. Waiting for the day of resurrection when the heavens are rolled together Rev 6:14 at the Second Coming.
Job 14:10-15 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Paul preached the resurrection of the dead and not departed spirits to those who knew nothing of the gospel.
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter
Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead. He did not seek to go straight to heaven.
Philippians 3:11 If by any means I [Paul] might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
1. Paul taught both the Christians in Corinth and Thessalonica that their hope was in the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming.
2. Paul preached the resurrection of the dead to the Greek philosophers who knew nothing of the gospel.
3. Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead.
Resurrection is God’s appointed method of bringing souls back to life.
https://adventist.org/beliefs/official/death-and-resurrection
Disingenuous at best, besides being bollocks.
You keep using "they" to describe the SDA while refusing to openly admit that you are a member of the SDA.
That's enough for me to ignore you completely.
-
I already answer that I am a Adventist, back in the first posts. Not quite sure what all the castigation is all about..
-
Stop saying what “they believe”
Own up to your own aberrant theology
-
Stop saying what “they believe”
Own up to your own aberrant theology
People seem to want to know, my bad...
-
Stop saying what “they believe”
Own up to your own aberrant theology
People seem to want to know, my bad...
Yeah but you keep distancing yourself. So does that mean you're the kind of SDA that wants to hide Ellen away in a closet in the past?
-
Well to be clear, the Hebrew bible does not mention the afterlife at all in any explicit manner. It is hypothesized that this was to make a clean break with the Egyptian culture, which was after all a giant death cult.
The Sadducees who only followed the written law therefore did not believe in an afterlife.
The Pharisees who carried the oral law and its surrounding traditions did believe in an afterlife, as do religious Jews in modern times.
-
Well to be clear, the Hebrew bible does not mention the afterlife at all in any explicit manner. It is hypothesized that this was to make a clean break with the Egyptian culture, which was after all a giant death cult.
The Sadducees who only followed the written law therefore did not believe in an afterlife.
The Pharisees who carried the oral law and its surrounding traditions did believe in an afterlife, as do religious Jews in modern times.
We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...
-
We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...
Yes, normative Orthodox Jews are the philosophical and religious descendants on the first century Pharisees. Regardless of how the NT uses the term, it is not a pejorative in Judaism. The opposite, actually.
-
We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...
Yes, normative Orthodox Jews are the philosophical and religious descendants on the first century Pharisees. Regardless of how the NT uses the term, it is not a pejorative in Judaism. The opposite, actually.
Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?
-
Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?
The Pharisees were the Orthodox Jews of their time. I'm not sure what your question is.
-
According to the Bible, those who die in Jesus immediately go to paradise where God is. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Jesus told the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise."
Those who are not forgiven go to Hades, where they await God's judgment. Hades is located within the bowls of the earth and is where Jesus went for three days after he was crucified, where he rebuked the demons who are there.
-
Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?
The Pharisees were the Orthodox Jews of their time. I'm not sure what your question is.
Would see yourself on the Sadducee's line or the Pharisees line would be my question. As from my experience Jews do not give up or forget their 'lineage'.
-
Would see yourself on the Sadducee's line or the Pharisees line would be my question.
The Sadducees and their philosophies did not survive the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. On the other hand, the Pharisees wrote the Talmud and that is what observant Jews study today.
As from my experience
Which means nothing, really.
Jews do not give up or forget their 'lineage'.
I don't know what this means.
-
That’s funny
The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors
You read a funny Bible
I’ll ask again
Are you Seventh Day Adventist?
First of all, I am not an SDA. Not that I have any problem with them, I am just stating a fact. Now with that stated let’s look at you statement about the thief going to Paradise at that moment.
Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
First point to consider is that there is no punctuation in the Greek manuscripts. The comma was added much later.
Now the statement Jesus makes “Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.”
How long was Christ in the tomb?
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Not parts of a day or some such adjustment to try to make this fit a Friday Afternoon burial to a Sunday morning resurrection. Christ was crucified on the Passover which was a Wednesday in AD31. There is another discussion about the decree to rebuild the Temple in 457BC and 69 weeks (483) years. Anyhoo, Jesus was in the tomb three days and three nights, a day being 12 hours.
John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, “Are there not TWELVE HOURS in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”
Now another point
John 20:1-2 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
Still dark and He was already resurrected. Of course, three days and three nights from Wednesday afternoon is Saturday afternoon.
Now,was Jesus in Paradise yet?
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
Jesus was still on Earth. He had not yet ascended to the Father to present Himself as the Wave Sheaf, the perfect offering for our sins.
So, with all that said, by your reckoning, the thief had already went to Paradise or Heaven or whatever you call it three days before Christ. That makes Jesus the SECOND BORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Now let’s understand what that verse really means.
If we are going to place a comma in Luke 23:43, let’s place it where it fits the rest of the Scriptures
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
I’m telling you today that in that day of the resurrection, you will be with me in Paradise.
I Ths 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
At Christ’s coming
I Cor 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
-
That’s funny
The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors
You read a funny Bible
I’ll ask again
Are you Seventh Day Adventist?
According to scripture, Jesus was in the grave for three entire days before he was resurrected back to life by the Abrahamic God.
English Standard Version -- Matthew 12:40 https://biblehub.com/esv/matthew/12.htm
"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Not only did Jesus spend three days in the grave, he remained on earth for at least 40 days after his resurrection, according to scripture.
Berean Standard Bible -- Acts 1:3 https://biblehub.com/bsb/acts/1.htm
"After His suffering, He [Jesus] presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God."
So according to scripture, the thief who died with Jesus was not, as you believe, "immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise."
-
According to the Bible, those who die in Jesus immediately go to paradise where God is. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Jesus told the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise."
Those who are not forgiven go to Hades, where they await God's judgment. Hades is located within the bowls of the earth and is where Jesus went for three days after he was crucified, where he rebuked the demons who are there.
Scripture please. Where in the Judeo-Christian Bible does it say Jesus (who scripture says was dead) was still alive and kicking? So much so that he was supposedly rebuking demons.
-
I am new here, but I would like to add a comment about the thief. He didn’t even ask Jesus to take him with him. He only asked HIM to remember him. He didn’t expect to go with Him, only that HE remember him. BTW: That is a bit of a problem for the churches that continue to add rules and expect us to keep them. The thief apparently did none of that!
George
-
I am new here, but I would like to add a comment about the thief. He didn’t even ask Jesus to take him with him. He only asked HIM to remember him. He didn’t expect to go with Him, only that HE remember him. BTW: That is a bit of a problem for the churches that continue to add rules and expect us to keep them. The thief apparently did none of that!
George
You should be able to post now George. Let us know.
-
I am new here, but I would like to add a comment about the thief. He didn’t even ask Jesus to take him with him. He only asked HIM to remember him. He didn’t expect to go with Him, only that HE remember him. BTW: That is a bit of a problem for the churches that continue to add rules and expect us to keep them. The thief apparently did none of that!
George
What do you mean the thief did none of what?
-
Here's my favorite explanation of the thief.
And that's all I have to say, about that.
2nd or 3rd video down (either one):
Edit: Your link was breaking the horizontal scroll. Here are the 2nd and 3rd videos:
-
I gotchu.
-
Gracias amigo.
-
That second video is very interesting. Even though we share some biblical canon, what this pastor(?) is describing is as far from Judaism as one can be.
-
Oh there is no doubt that the NT expounding of grace is not found in any other theological system, including Judaism.
Sadly, it is also not found within the practice e or thought of many professing Christians.
-
Oh there is no doubt that the NT expounding of grace is not found in any other theological system, including Judaism.
Judaism has the concept of grace. It's the need for "salvation" that's not present. Although in the prayer we say after eating a meal, we beseech God to give us the merit to see the coming of the messiah, and life in the World to Come.
Sadly, it is also not found within the practice e or thought of many professing Christians.
Catholics and Orthodox? Because they believe some strange things.
-
Interesting
Grace without the need for salvation is somewhat strange to me, sort of like the idea of umbrellas pre-Noah!!!!
Yes, both Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology holds to some strange ideas that to me are extra biblical
I was thinking in my posts of many evangelical Christians who hold to strange practical theologies in which they believe that their salvation is either obtained or maintained by their own works of righteous deeds
-
Interesting
Grace without the need for salvation is somewhat strange to me, sort of like the idea of umbrellas pre-Noah!!!!
The idea of "salvation from hell" or even "redemption via works" are not Jewish ideas. Jews follow Biblical law because it's part of our covenant with God, not because we're going to get some reward for doing so.
-
Interesting
Grace without the need for salvation is somewhat strange to me, sort of like the idea of umbrellas pre-Noah!!!!
The idea of "salvation from hell" or even "redemption via works" are not Jewish ideas. Jews follow Biblical law because it's part of our covenant with God, not because we're going to get some reward for doing so.
Understood
If only if I could get Christian’s to understand “good works because of relationship with God” as opposed to “good works in order to obtain a relationship with God” I’d be waaaaay down the road
-
If only if I could get Christian’s to understand “good works because of relationship with God” as opposed to “good works in order to obtain a relationship with God” I’d be waaaaay down the road
You do set a good example. It's up to other people whether to follow it or not. That's all Judaism is, a moral pilot project for the rest of the world to adopt. That so few want to follow the bible's values is just sad.
-
“good works because of relationship with God” as opposed to “good works in order to obtain a relationship with God”
I love this story because it is not only to your point, but also describes the strange paradox of who Jews are.
Edited for clarity
During the closing days of Israel's 1982 "Peace in Galilee" campaign in Lebanon, I was one of a group of ten Chabad Chassidim who got permission from the army to enter Beirut to cheer up the soldiers.
The soldiers welcomed us as though we were announcing the end of the war. The entire night we went from group to group, singing, dancing, talking, laughing, and of course making L'Chaims over vodka.
There was no time to sleep. At the crack of dawn we got our tefillin (phylacteries) out of our bags and began asking soldiers if they wanted to do a mitzvah and put them on for a minute.
At that hour of the morning most of the soldiers were still asleep. I walked around looking for "customers" and happened upon a line of about ten open jeeps with two soldiers seated in each. Their motors were running and they were waiting in the chilly morning to go out on a mission. It must have been some sort of combat foray, because they were armed to the teeth and were wearing bulky bulletproof vests and steel helmets.
I approached the first jeep and asked them if they wanted to put on tefillin and one soldier agreed. When he finished, I moved on to the next one and asked the driver the same question, but was in for an unpleasant surprise.
He just listened, looking straight ahead, and didn't even react to my question. So I just stood there and waited for a reply. After a few seconds of silence, he turned to me and said (loose translation): "Get out of my sight, you parasite religious scum! If you don't get out of my face I'll tear you to pieces! I hate you vermin!"
I understood that the answer was no. I tried to force a smile and figure out something to say, when suddenly the driver of the next jeep in line called out to me in a desperate tone of voice: "Rabbi, Rabbi! Come here. I want to put on tefillin." I turned, happy to get away, and began to walk toward the third jeep in the line. "Tell me Rabbi," he called nervously after I had taken a few steps and was still quite a distance from him. "If... if I put on tefillin will G‑d protect me?"
It was obvious that the man was very worried. Yesterday he was probably sitting in his hardware store selling pipes and tools when they called him up to reserve duty, and suddenly here he was about to enter the front lines.
"Listen, my friend," I assured him, "G‑d will protect you whether you put on the tefillin or not. Don't worry. He loves you because you are a Jew. But if G‑d protects you for free, so why not do something for Him for free, and put on tefillin?"
It seems that the soldier in the second jeep — the one that had cursed me out — had heard all this, because when I finished putting on the tefillin on this soldier he called out, "Hey Rabbi! Come over here!"
I turned around to see him rolling up his sleeve like he wanted to put on the tefillin and motioning me to come over.
I took a few steps towards him. "What do you want? What happened?"
"Listen!" he replied "What do you care? I want to put on the tefillin, too."
I gave him a look and an Israeli hand motion as if to say, "Are you for real?" And he replied:
"Listen, my friend. To put on tefillin in order to go to heaven or to be religious, that's not for me. But to put on tefillin for no reason... That I'm willing to do!"
This is the essence of the Jewish soul in action. A Jew may reject all reasons, all explanations, including mystical explanations, for doing a mitzvah, but will embrace the deed itself.