BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: Reddogs on May 19, 2026, 09:45:56 AM
-
We have many who say they can't or won't stop sinning even to when Jesus appears at the Second Coming. Are we able to overcome or not?
When the Bible says let "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: ' does this mean we can stay full of iniquity
If we keep sinning will Christ make us sinless at the end when we are changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'? Is this verse referring only to our mortal bodies of flesh, or also our sinful lives?
What does the Bible teach.
We have this verse given to us....
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
And we have...
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
And Christ Himself says....
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
And then we have this...
John 17:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
So is sin too much for us to stop, what does scripture say..
1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Christ is clear on what we must do..
John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
We find that Christ will cut off salvation at the close of probation to those who continue in sin before He comes.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Notice Christ declares "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still" and right after it, that He "comes quickly" with every mans reward. And we do not want to be full of sin and fall into His righteous wrath when we face our God...
-
And e have the apostle John telling us — Christians— that if we say we do not sin we are liars.
So there you go
-
Gensis 4:7 "But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Genesis 6:9 Noah was a righteous man, he was perfect in his generations...
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
The concept of abstract perfection does not exist in Judaism. It is a later, Greek idea. The word in this verse is better translated as "whole hearted".
And yet, God made man imperfect, so why would God expect perfection?
Life is a process. Attempt, fall short, try again. Sin, repent, do better next time.
-
A perennial human fallacy places accountability for Adam's sin and, consequently, human death, on GOD'S having made Adam "imperfect."
"Imperfection" in this philosopy needs defining, as Adam, being not decieved, chose sin, out of freewill.
-
Gensis 4:7 "But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Genesis 6:9 Noah was a righteous man, he was perfect in his generations...
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
The concept of abstract perfection does not exist in Judaism. It is a later, Greek idea. The word in this verse is better translated as "whole hearted".
And yet, God made man imperfect, so why would God expect perfection?
Life is a process. Attempt, fall short, try again. Sin, repent, do better next time.
And yet Gods Word has this..
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
-
In Job 1:1 The word translated as blameless is:
Strongs: Tam
The definition that best fits the context of the Book of Job (and the rest of the Bible...Rom 3:23) is integrity.
In the case of Job, he, was a man of integrity
This word is used in parallel in this verse with upright.
Look again at Job 1:1
“This man was blameless and upright;
he feared God and shunned evil.”
So, the description of
Job being “blameless and upright” is
linked to the fear of God and the
avoidance of evil
Job is described as a man of integrity & upright…
Not because he was sinless…
But because he feared God & avoided evil
-
And yet Gods Word has this..
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Did Job think he needed a redeemer?
-
And yet Gods Word has this..
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
There's that word again.
You're translating it as "perfect". As I have said before, this idea of abstract "perfection" is a Greek invention, it does not exist in Judaism or the Jewish bible.
The word here "תָּם" is Strong's 8535. The same word is used in Genesis 25:27 to describe Jacob, which nobody translates as "perfect".KJV: "And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents." The translations for this verse usually use the word to mean "plain", "mild mannered", "peaceful" etc.
It can also be used in the context of bringing animal sacrifice, where the word obviously means "fit" or "undamaged", not "perfect" (how can an animal be "perfect"?)
Interestingly enough, Jewish tradition has it that one man did live his life without sin: Elijah the prophet, who ascended to heaven while still alive, via a fiery chariot.
-
You didnt read the whole text, look at it closely...
The Greek word translated “eschew” here is ekklineo, meaning “incline away from.” That is, instead of having an attitude that “inclines toward” evil, as the world does, the Christian’s inclination must be its polar opposite.
To eschew evil means to deliberately avoid, abstain from, or shun wickedness and wrongdoing. It is a conscious, active choice to turn away from sin and pursue a righteous, moral life
-
Are you talkin' to me?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
-
Are you talkin' to me?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Neither does he
-
Well Christ does and He is clear on this...
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
-
The only ones that offend are those that rely on their own righteousnes
-
If we keep sinning will Christ make us sinless at the end when we are changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'? Is this verse referring only to our mortal bodies of flesh, or also our sinful lives?
What does the Bible teach.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1Jn 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jn 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed,we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Those in Christ Jesus are fully redeemed that would every part of us. We are stuck in these weak physical bodies for a time but when we are resurrected, no more weak physical bodies. No, that verse is not referring only to our physical bodies. Read it in context.
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
-
And yet, God made man imperfect, so why would God expect perfection?
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
-
And yet, God made man imperfect, so why would God expect perfection?
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
I guess that depends on what is meant by “perfect” or “imperfect”
-
The only ones that offend are those that rely on their own righteousnes
Who relies on their own righteousness?
-
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
God gave humanity free will. What humanity chooses to do with this free will is on them. There are those who ask "During the Holocaust, where was God?" But the question really should be, "During the Holocaust, where was man?"
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
If God made man imperfect, why bother even telling humanity to behave morally?
-
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
God gave humanity free will. What humanity chooses to do with this free will is on them. There are those who ask "During the Holocaust, where was God?" But the question really should be, "During the Holocaust, where was man?"
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
If God made man imperfect, why bother even telling humanity to behave morally?
I agree that God created man with free will and what they choose, or we choose, to do with it is on them/us. But I believe God created man in sinlessness, or innocent. Created with free will and they could choose to believe Him and thus be obedient following His will, or they could believe another and eat the forbidden fruit. And when they did, they lost their innocence. And we are all Adams decedents. He and Eve produced like kind, just like it says in Genesis about all that God created. Each human being a choice, each one having been created with free will. We can choose to believe God our creator, or we can believe another.
The holocaust shows how absolutely evil a human being can be. There is no understanding the depths of the evil. Not unless someone is that evil themselves. I believe Occult beliefs and practices were involved and thus influenced to even deeper depths of evil. The Devil and all the fallen angels hate mankind but they particularly hate the Jewish people. If they can destroy Israel they think they can thwart God's plans. Since God called Abraham and through Abraham the nation of Israel was born, Satan has been trying to destroy Israel from the start. Even before that. Thats what I believe.
But I am probably off topic. My apologies to the OP.
My hope, joy, and sanity in this world, is knowing that by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone,...someday this miserable, imperfect struggling, weak, sinner, will be resurrected in perfection. God just asked me to believe Him, and He took it from there. I know I can't do it, thats a fact.
-
And yet, God made man imperfect, so why would God expect perfection?
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
I guess that depends on what is meant by “perfect” or “imperfect”
Innocent probably is a better way of putting what I was thinking than perfect. They didn't know sin as they were created but they were clearly capable with free will to choose it
-
I agree that God created man with free will and what they choose, or we choose, to do with it is on them/us. But I believe God created man in sinlessness, or innocent.
So far so good.
Created with free will and they could choose to believe Him and thus be obedient following His will, or they could believe another and eat the forbidden fruit. And when they did, they lost their innocence. And we are all Adams decedents. He and Eve produced like kind, just like it says in Genesis about all that God created. Each human being a choice, each one having been created with free will. We can choose to believe God our creator, or we can believe another.
I don't have a problem with that.
The holocaust shows how absolutely evil a human being can be. There is no understanding the depths of the evil. Not unless someone is that evil themselves. I believe Occult beliefs and practices were involved and thus influenced to even deeper depths of evil. The Devil and all the fallen angels hate mankind but they particularly hate the Jewish people. If they can destroy Israel they think they can thwart God's plans. Since God called Abraham and through Abraham the nation of Israel was born, Satan has been trying to destroy Israel from the start. Even before that. Thats what I believe.
Interesting.
My hope, joy, and sanity in this world, is knowing that by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone,...someday this miserable, imperfect struggling, weak, sinner, will be resurrected in perfection. God just asked me to believe Him, and He took it from there. I know I can't do it, thats a fact.
I don't think that faith in God is a bad thing. It's a very good thing. However, I am not a Christian and I don't believe that faith alone is sufficient. Every person still has free will and has to make the right choices. That's why humanity was created in the first place.
-
Are you saying it is really God's fault we sin, if Adam and Eve were indeed created imperfect?
God gave humanity free will. What humanity chooses to do with this free will is on them. There are those who ask "During the Holocaust, where was God?" But the question really should be, "During the Holocaust, where was man?"
If God mad man imperfect, why the big deal over eating the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why would God have even bothered to tell Adam that particular tree was off limits?
If God made man imperfect, why bother even telling humanity to behave morally?
I agree that God created man with free will and what they choose, or we choose, to do with it is on them/us. But I believe God created man in sinlessness, or innocent. Created with free will and they could choose to believe Him and thus be obedient following His will, or they could believe another and eat the forbidden fruit. And when they did, they lost their innocence. And we are all Adams decedents. He and Eve produced like kind, just like it says in Genesis about all that God created. Each human being a choice, each one having been created with free will. We can choose to believe God our creator, or we can believe another.
The holocaust shows how absolutely evil a human being can be. There is no understanding the depths of the evil. Not unless someone is that evil themselves. I believe Occult beliefs and practices were involved and thus influenced to even deeper depths of evil. The Devil and all the fallen angels hate mankind but they particularly hate the Jewish people. If they can destroy Israel they think they can thwart God's plans. Since God called Abraham and through Abraham the nation of Israel was born, Satan has been trying to destroy Israel from the start. Even before that. Thats what I believe.
But I am probably off topic. My apologies to the OP.
My hope, joy, and sanity in this world, is knowing that by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone,...someday this miserable, imperfect struggling, weak, sinner, will be resurrected in perfection. God just asked me to believe Him, and He took it from there. I know I can't do it, thats a fact.
I was reading till 'Occult beliefs'. I come from the islands and know what that can encompass...