BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: Tomi Laakso on March 19, 2026, 05:39:18 PM
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We should look into both the goodness and the severity of God (Romans 11:22). God mourns for every soul that He has to condemn to hell. But he will indeed condemn countless souls to hell, and we cannot comprehend the seriousness of that. If God would just end the history right away, that would be easier for Him, since all sins of all generations were placed upon Jesus. But He bears us, despite that we all would deserve hell, and can only be saved through the blood of Jesus, if we repent and believe the gospel. That judgements in the world come in steps (and some of those gradually), is mercy to mankind. Many can see that judgements are indeed coming and can repent before dying. Some get the chance to repent when dying in the judgements. And God gives warnings ahead, which is proof to mankind of the reality of Him.
Some persons look arrogantly at the judgements of God: “It is only for those liberals. But I, even if I were there, would go straight to the heaven.” Some of those who think so are denying their faith by their deeds, like for example living in fornication or adultery. Sin in believers life can mean crucifying Jesus again. It is worse in front of God than sin of those who never knew Jesus. And if you are truly in a good condition in bad spiritual times, you cannot know how much of that is really because of your free-will choices and how much because you got the grace that God influenced you more than most people in your time, so that light would be preserved in some lamps.
Revelation chapters 17 and 18 speak about a great harlot, Babylon. I believe the harlotry refers to apostasy. There is apostasy inside and outside the churches, in conservative and liberal sides. I believe there is no single one-to-one correspondence of the Babylon to some earthly entity. Babylon is a spiritual concept and spiritual entity in the invisible world. Babylon has church-manifestations, city manifestations and country manifestations on the earth. Not differentiating between these and not realizing that there are two phases in the destruction described in chapter 18 has led to errors like speaking about annihilation of United States in this context. Even though Babylon is not a single entity on Earth, this does not mean that God would not give specific detailed warnings related to it’s destruction -quite the opposite is true, as we shall see.
Revelation chapter 18 speaks about a sudden destruction of a powerful, large and rich city in a fire whose smoke can be seen from the sea. I believe this refers to more than one city, and that it speaks about nuclear terrorist attacks, that David Wilkerson also spoke about. Verse 17:18 describes the city as an imperial capital, that will say, at some part of it’s history. The economical significance and power described in chapter 18 at the time of the destruction points to New York and London, if understood as a property of a singular city. New York was not an imperial capital, but it has UN Security Council which has “kingship over the kings of the earth” when it succeeds in making a decision. City of Rome can be recognized from chapter 17, which has references to both the city and the Roman Catholic Church.
I believe that Revelation 18 has two phases, earlier and latter. Verses 4-19 (or 9-19) are about the earlier phase essentially and the rest are about the latter phase. The earlier phase is about a great destruction that among other things takes the riches of the city away, but does not completely end the normal human life in the city (see verse 14). Observe that Hiroshima is still a major city today. The latter phase happens very late in the end times and means complete end of the normal human life in the city. See verses 22 and 23. Before the latter phase of destructions there happen persecutions of Christians all over the world (notice verse 20), but not necessarily before the first phase.
The well known Biblical expression “time, times and half” (moed, moedim wachetzi) is connected to several prophecies. It is also connected to Revelation chapter 18. Please take into account that a prophetic text can have several parallel correct meanings. One of the meanings of the word moed is appointed signal. It turns out that moed, moedim wachetzi gives signals related to cities of Revelation chapter 18. I will outline how the Hebrew expression gives the signals.
We know that the basic meaning of time, times and half is 1260 days, which corresponds to ‘time, 2 times and half’, with time being 360 days. This can be seen by comparing Revelation 12:6 and 12:14. The number 2 is not in the Hebrew or Greek expression; it can also mean ‘time, 3 times and half’, or ‘time, 4 times and half’ and so on. With the same value of “time” as in 1260 these interpretations correspond to 1620 days, 1980 days, 2340 days and so on. So, a single Hebrew expression gives actually a sequence of numbers, and it turns out that many of the early numbers of this infinite sequence have prophetic signals. The first one, 1260, contains 260, which is the number of District of Columbia in Hebrew according to standard modern Hebrew spelling. Daniel chapter 12 that also has the expression “time, times and half” says that these things will be sealed until the time of the end (see verse 9). The signals that I talk about are intended for the last generation and for the proper time. Most of the signals use the binary base, instead of decimal base. For this generation that is ok. God knew all bases and units and everything in His sovereign foreknowledge. Here is a list of some of the signals in these numbers.
1260 District of Columbia (Washington)
1620 Mexico City, Jerusalem (Jerusalem is possibly here due to reasons other than Revelation 18), Miami
1980 Rome, Damascus
2340 London, Berlin
2700 Istanbul
3060 New York, Kiev
3420 Moscow
3780 Amsterdam
4140 Madrid
Except the first one all these signals are of the type that the binary representation of the number on the left contains the binary representation of the number of the city in standard modern Hebrew spelling. Excluding Jerusalem and Miami these cities can all be regarded as imperial capitals (with New York included because of the Security Council). Even Kiev was the capital of Kievan Rus, the largest country of Europe in it’s time of greatness, and a major military power. Mexico City was the capital of Spanish Latin America, and before that the capital of the Aztec empire.
Later in the prophetic sequence there comes extensive references to Revelation 18:4. Together with that there are further references to specific cities. God has allowed confirmations that the numbers of cities are not all in the list coincidentally. For example, the number 1980 mentioned above, that contains the modern Hebrew number of Rome contains also the Greek number of Rome in binary.
I have done computer tests related to appearance of the cities in the binary representations of the prophetic numbers. The European part is more easily tested. The beginning of the list when counting only European cities is
1260 -
1620 -
1980 Rome
2340 London, Berlin (both numbers appear twice overlapping in 2340)
2700 Istanbul
3060 Kiev
3420 Moscow
This correlates with the list of cities ruling over greatest share of world population at the time of their peak power, which for Europe would begin: Rome, Istanbul, London, Berlin, Moscow, S. Petersburg, Paris. (Istanbul was for a time the capital of the whole Roman Empire). This is connected to Revelation 17:18. Computer test that took into account first 5 of the prophetic numbers and first 7 of the cities in their historical ranking gave probability less than 11000 for random coincidence. This is indeed small enough to take notice.
God is providing information about where to leave to avoid judgement of the Babylon-cities. As promised in Revelation 18 (through verses 4 and following), the information about leaving will be available before the destruction. What is in this sequence of prophetic message numbers is part of that information. It is also part of the handwriting on the wall. God, in His faithfulness, gives handwriting on the wall that is for everyone to see, after it is discovered, handwriting that comes through the Bible itself. Bible is exactly where to anchor in the last times.
The seriousness of the issue necessitates caution. God has nevertheless provided multiple confirmations to many details. Many numbers of cities contained in the sequence are accompanied by numbers of words closely connected to the city. For example in 2340 the number of Berlin (292) appears twice overlapping itself in binary. In the same number there is also the number the river Spree in the city. And the next number 2700 in the sequence has the number of Berlin in Greek.
About prophetic message numbers in general
Still, for the issue of getting messages from prophetic message numbers, as those above, caution is needed. When getting messages from prophetic message numbers I propose the following five conditions. First, the messages should be about details, not doctrines. That is, messages should be about times, places and other outer details, not doctrinal statements or claims about spiritual concepts. Second, the details should be about the prophecy where those prophetic message numbers appear. If that prophecy is connected to another prophecy, the message number can be about details of that other prophecy too. Third, the message number should appear in the prophetic text as a message number. For this, one should allow unconventional understandings of the text. Fourth, the message should fit into how that message number appears in the prophetic text. Fifth, the message number should be demonstrated to have truthful data as a message number. In case of a number related to a prophecy whose fulfillment is entirely in the future, the truthful data should relate to known details of the domain where it will presumably be fulfilled (according to a reasonable understanding of the text). Instead of “domain” one can have something specific of the real world related to the proposed fulfillment. Here one should require that the truthful data is not plausible as a coincidence. Without these 5 conditions or something similar one could claim that Bible says almost anything through prophetic message numbers.
Brief analysis of the prophetic word related to the prophetic message numbers
In the case above these 5 conditions are satisfied, even though I have not yet proved it here. To this end, consider first Daniel 12, where it is written
“5Then I, Daniel, looked, and two others were standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the other. 6One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the end of these extraordinary things? ” 7Then I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river. He raised both his hands toward heaven and swore by Him who lives eternally that it would be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people is shattered, all these things will be completed.”
Time, times and half is connected to 2300 years through it’s basic meaning 1260 days. The numeric value of the expression “alpayim we-shelosh meot”, when written as in modern Hebrew with two yods in alpayim to distinguish it from alafim, is precisely 1260. It is known, that one fulfillment of 2300 ereb boqer is the time interval ending in 1967. At that time the last generation was already there. It is also known that the coming of Jesus cannot be known more accurately than the generation. In Daniel 12:7 the answer is actually that the end-times generation is there at the end of the 2300-year interval, what comes to time.
After learning this, let us look into Revelation chapter 12. Revelation 12:5 refers to Jesus and His ascension to heaven. The next verse says: “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”. This is often understood as speaking about some specific difficult 3.5-years in the end times. But that is not the only meaning here (if it speaks about that at all). The being in the prepared place started after the ascension of Jesus. This speaks about God’s protection in general throughout new covenant history all the way to the last generation, including the last generation. Here as in Daniel 12 the number 1260 refers to 2300 years, which end at 1967, and mark the last generation. After the last generation, in the thousand year kingdom, there is no longer need for similar God’s protection, since Jesus rules on Earth and the devil is bound.
Verse 14 says “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”. I skip the issue of the meaning of the great eagle here for brevity, but I believe, that in the general case the two wings are obedience and prayer, which can be confirmed by Bible verses as you know. So far this is about the general case of protection of God for His people. But there is also more specific information here related to God’s protection in some case or cases.
In verse 14 we have a Greek version of moed, moedim wachetzi, καιρόν, καὶ καιρούς, καὶ ἥμισυ καιροῦ (in accusative). Since this is a specific spiritual concept or phrase, that appears both in Greek and Hebrew, I consider it legitimate to look into it’s meanings’ nuances in both languages when considering it in the Greek text. Consider the Hebrew meaning “appointed signal, appointed signals and part [of appointed signal]” in the Greek sentence. It is in the accusative case and it specifies verb τρέφεται (she is nourished, she is supported). Accusative specifies basicly the extent of the action of the verb, that is, where the action reaches, where it happens. In some rare cases it specifies according to what the action of the verb happens. Here essentially she is supported according to appointed signals. The signals give information about the limits and extent of the support, for example, from what cities you have to leave to avoid death in Revelation 18.
How about the appointedness issue of these appointed signals? Appointed how? The destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18 is a major issue what comes to the security, and the request to leave Babylon-cities before destruction is a major issue related to God’s protection. As such it is a big single part of the protection that Revelation 12 speaks about. In Revelation 18 we see, that information about leaving comes before the destruction. In this sense the issue is appointed to be signaled at appropriate time. God’s choice to call it “Babylon” in the context of it’s destruction places the destruction of historical Babylon as it’s type. There we have the well known issue of the handwriting on the wall. It is reasonable therefore to consider the appearance of a handwriting on the wall as something to watch for. The handwriting on the wall is the appointed signal.
Therefore, a reason for anguish for other souls:
In Jeremiah 9 there is
“20Hear, O women, the word of the LORD,
and let your ear receive the word of his mouth;
teach to your daughters a lament,
and each to her neighbor a dirge.
21For death has come up into our windows;
it has entered our palaces,
cutting off the children from the streets
and the young men from the squares.
22Speak: “Thus declares the LORD,
‘The dead bodies of men shall fall
like dung upon the open field,
like sheaves after the reaper,
and none shall gather them.’” ” Each body is someone’s daughter or son. Could be someone’s husband or wife, father or mother. Even the family members don’t grasp the full tragedy, since most of those who die instantly go to eternal hell. For family members this is something that people don’t even bare to look at. But there is still hope since there is still time to leave. There is still time to show to nonbelievers, that The Living God is real after all, and knew our time and it’s geography thousands of years ago. His judgements are real, too.
What cities should receive the warning:
Europe:
Rome (confirmed)
London (confirmed)
Berlin (confirmed)
Istanbul (at least partly confirmed)
Moscow
Petersburg
Madrid (confirmed)
Amsterdam (confirmed)
Brussels (confirmed)
Vienna
Lisbon (confirmed)
Paris (confirmed)
Kiev
Americas:
New York (confirmed)
Washington
Mexico city
Current (unconfirmed) understanding that I have is that in the United States the nuclear terrorist attacks happen in the greatest urban areas up to Miami and in the greatest metropolitan statistical areas up to Washington. (Both lists begin with New York.) Some strategic targets are possible besides these.
Asia:
Damascus (confirmed)
Jerusalem (unclear, number of Jerusalem in the list is possibly connected to prophecies about the Old City, not Revelation 18. It is hardly the case that God is telling people to leave Jerusalem.)
Whole Elam is in danger of destruction -this can mean Iran or Pakistan or both. This happens probably/possibly after the nuclear terrorist attacks. I believe that the nuclear warheads (missiles are not involved here) are from the beast of the Revelation (see Revelation 17:16) or his future co-rulers, and I do not believe he is from Pakistan. He does his best to hide the true origin of the nuclear warheads, and he is “skilled in intrigue”.
For Damascus there is the prophecy Isaiah 17:1-3. Also the general law of blessing or cursing Israel is relevant here, as is also true for Iran.
There can be other cities besides these.
Jesus be with you and guide you to all truth
Tomi Laakso
Finland
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About the nature of the voice in Revelation 18:4 and onwards
In Revelation 18 it is written: “
4And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5For her sins [c]have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6Render to her just as she rendered [d]to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7In the measure that she glorified herself and lived [e]luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who [f]judges her.
“
Taking into account basics of Christian morals shows that the commandment to participate in the judgement of Babylon cannot come to us. Actually, God is not commanding anyone to atrocities here. Even in the old covenant time instruments of God’s wrath were bringing judgement to themselves, too. God is not commanding anybody to commit an atrocity here, nor is He giving permission to any atrocity. It is written in James 1: “13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.” . So what is God doing here, and to whom is the participation in the atrocity? Revelation 17 says related to the destruction of Babylon: “16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. ” (or: according to other manuscripts than Textus Receptus the verse 16 is like: “And the ten horns that you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh, and will burn her with fire.” (BLB)) God does not put wrongness into their heart. They do sin according to their sinful choices and sinful nature and due to sinful worldly and demonic influence. But God directs their wrath to His chosen target through providence. God determines who sinner exactly gets the power and through the details of their life and background He ensures that the their own evil wrath is directed to the target God chose.
So, this part of the voice that is directing the destroyers comes through providence. Interesting thing here is that the voice is described as one voice. Can verse 4 also come through providence? What I wrote above about the prophetic messages numbers in this context shows that the answer is surprisingly yes. The sequence of prophetic message numbers coming from time, times and half is determined by simple arithmetic rule: the next number is the previous + 360. Not even complete foreknowledge is sufficient to write several messages into such sequence, since it is completely determined by the first number and the difference of successive numbers. But through providence God arranged through history, that the names of the cities will be such that their numbers appear in the list. God arranged also that the numbers of confirmations will be with the desired cities. He arranged the languages and script forms and word-number systems so that the number of Rome with Hebrew and with Greek both appeared in the binary representation of 1980. He arranged that the number of Berlin with Hebrew appears twice overlapping itself in 2340 and that the Greek number appears in the next number, and that the number of a river that flows through Berlin is also in 2340, for example. Several numbers related to Berlin appear together to make it clear that these numbers indeed point to Berlin intentionally and not by coincidence.
So, through providence God arranges that a handwriting on the wall will appear in the “wall” of the prophetic sequence. (Through providence God arranges the references to Revelation 18:4 later in the sequence as well.) This is a true handwriting on the wall, since, first, it can be shown to be statistically significant, and second, only Someone who has lordship over fine details of history can make it. (To be more precise about the details: The city-issue for some European cities has been treated with formal Monte Carlo -simulation to show the statistic significance. The reference to Revelation 18:4 in the numbers is obvious in the plain sight when revealed but in it’s entirety it is inventive enough so that it is difficult to plan a formal Monte Carlo -simulation for it.)
(In the text of Revelation 18:4-8 it is not obvious where exactly the voice mentioned in the verse 4 ends, and where the narrative of the rest of chapter 18 begins. Is verse 8 part of the voice or not? Is “because in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, and I am never a widow, and never shall I see mourning.’ ” (BLB) in the end of verse 7 connected more to the previous or the next sentence? But presumably the imperative in verse 6 is part of the voice. This is what is needed for the discussion above.)
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time being 360 days
Source?
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time being 360 days
Source?
Thanks for an intelligent question. I understand the point that time = 360 days is not the only integer solution to time, times and half = 1260 days. Also time = 280 days would do together with time, 3 times and half, and time = 168 days would do with time, 6 times and half, for example.
The reasoning I used in my work was as follows. There is basic form for time, times and half that can be used to extract basic information. This can be then applied in the more nuanced understanding. Prophetic word can have more than one correct understanding, more than one message.
So, why is time, 2 times and half the basic form of time, times and half? It has the smallest possible amount of times in it, so it is the simplest possibility in that sense. Furthermore, recall that the niqqud vowel points were added to Masoretic text somewhere in approximately the 9th century. Much later than Biblical times. If we ignore this later addition, then we can read the Hebrew expression according to Masoretic spelling conventions both as moed, moadim wachetzi (with moadim being plural) and moed, moadayim wachetzi (with moadayim being dual). The latter one is the only one that gives a fixed amount of times, and it means time, 2 times and half. Moreover, since the plural case contains the dual case as one possibility, the only possibility that comes through both readings corresponds to time, 2 times and half. So it makes sense to emphasize this form.
So, first we read Revelation 12:14 with the basic form time, 2 times and half, and compare this to Revelation 12:6 that has 1260 in it's stead. From this we get basic understanding time = 360 days. Then we read more nuanced information from Revelation 12:14 with using the general sense time, times and half and also take into account the signal-type meaning of moed ("time"). There we also apply the basic information we just obtained, that is time = 360 days.
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Exactly how does all this esoteric rambling impact your misssion of making disciples?
Does this make you a better Christian?
Do you serve better?
Do you love more?
Do you sacrifice yourself more?
What’s the point?
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Thanks for an intelligent question. I understand the point that time = 360 days is not the only integer solution to time, times and half = 1260 days. Also time = 280 days would do together with time, 3 times and half, and time = 168 days would do with time, 6 times and half, for example.
You haven't answered my question. Where in the bible (or anyplace else, for that matter) does the idea exist that "time" is equal to 360 days?
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Honestly, when your first post here is a wall of words like this and we have no idea whether you have something interesting to share or you're just another internet rando trying to teach us all how badly wrong we are, it's not the greatest start.
If you had a track record here of posting interesting, uplifting or insightful stuff I might be more inclined to read it all. But you don't, and I've seen enough people appear on a message board to post a wall of words that's not useful that I don't feel inclined to read it and process it all in case it is useful.
Perhaps you could try introducing yourself, and posting something a little shorter so we can get to know you a bit before you present a brain dump.
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Still, for the issue of getting messages from prophetic message numbers, as those above, caution is needed. When getting messages from prophetic message numbers I propose the following five conditions:
First, the messages should be about details, not doctrines. That is, messages should be about times, places and other outer details, not doctrinal statements or claims about spiritual concepts.
Second, the details should be about the prophecy where those prophetic message numbers appear. If that prophecy is connected to another prophecy, the message number can be about details of that other prophecy too.
Third, the message number should appear in the prophetic text as a message number. For this, one should allow unconventional understandings of the text.
Fourth, the message should fit into how that message number appears in the prophetic text.
Fifth, the message number should be demonstrated to have truthful data as a message number. In case of a number related to a prophecy whose fulfillment is entirely in the future, the truthful data should relate to known details of the domain where it will presumably be fulfilled (according to a reasonable understanding of the text). Instead of “domain” one can have something specific of the real world related to the proposed fulfillment. Here one should require that the truthful data is not plausible as a coincidence.
Without these 5 conditions or something similar one could claim that Bible says almost anything through prophetic message numbers.
You hear about those sharpshooters in Texas?
In the case above these 5 conditions are satisfied, even though I have not yet proved it here.
I am shocked.
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I'm disappointed that I didn't get the revelation about "time" being 360 days.
The number does have many interesting properties, like being "highly composite" (as defined by Ramanujan). It featured very heavily in Babylonian mathematics (probably for the above reason!) and is why in modern math a circle has 360 degrees. They also had a calendar of 12 months of 30 days each = 360 days in a year. Unfortunately that is off by more than 5 days from the solar calendar. It does not feature in the Jewish calendar however, which is based on the appearance of the new moon of approximately 29.53 days per month, which leads to months having either 29 or 30 days. The lunar calendar thus has 354 days in a year. Since the holiday of Passover has to be in the spring, it is 11 days earlier every year until the error adds up to a full month, at which point a leap month is added to the calendar. This is done on a repeating 19 year cycle.
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In the case above these 5 conditions are satisfied, even though I have not yet proved it here.
I am shocked.
It seems that you misunderstood the sentence. It means that the conditions were not all proved in the part of the text before that sentence.
But I admit that there was a substantial error in my text (which does not make the issue itself to fall, only the exposition). The condition 3 should be reframed. As I stated it, it was only suitable for single explicit prophetic message numbers like 1335 in the end of Daniel. But the sequence of numbers corresponding to time, times and half is a different matter, since these numbers do not literally appear in the text (except 1260 in certain places).
Better framing would be: "Third, either A: the message number should appear in the prophetic text as a message number, or B: an expression in the text should correspond to the prophetic message number or an array of message numbers, with using a correspondence, whose idea can be obtained from the Bible. This number or numbers should then appear in the text as a prophetic message number or numbers (in the place of the expression). For the role as a prophetic message number or numbers, one should allow unconventional understandings of the text." The correspondence was time = 360 days in the context of time, times and half (and this was seen by comparing Revelation 12:14 and 12:6.)
I admit that the framing above is clumsy as a text. But actually I have to add one condition more to it: "The correspondence should not be gematric". This is because otherwise all Biblical expressions could be turned to numbers. But the other direction is different: If a number is a prophetic message number, then the messages can be gematric, too. One can get fulfilled prophecy (or prophecies), even high accuracy, in Daniel chapter 12 with time, times and half and 1335, with allowing gematric messages. The idea time = 360 days is crucial also there.
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It seems that you misunderstood the sentence. It means that the conditions were not all proved in the part of the text before that sentence.
Yep, hence my shock.
But I admit that there was a substantial error in my text (which does not make the issue itself to fall, only the exposition). The condition 3 should be reframed. As I stated it, it was only suitable for single explicit prophetic message numbers like 1335 in the end of Daniel. But the sequence of numbers corresponding to time, times and half is a different matter, since these numbers do not literally appear in the text (except 1260 in certain places).
Better framing would be: "Third, either A: the message number should appear in the prophetic text as a message number, or B: an expression in the text should correspond to the prophetic message number or an array of message numbers, with using a correspondence, whose idea can be obtained from the Bible. This number or numbers should then appear in the text as a prophetic message number or numbers (in the place of the expression). For the role as a prophetic message number or numbers, one should allow unconventional understandings of the text." The correspondence was time = 360 days in the context of time, times and half (and this was seen by comparing Revelation 12:14 and 12:6.)
I admit that the framing above is clumsy as a text. But actually I have to add one condition more to it: "The correspondence should not be gematric". This is because otherwise all Biblical expressions could be turned to numbers. But the other direction is different: If a number is a prophetic message number, then the messages can be gematric, too. One can get fulfilled prophecy (or prophecies), even high accuracy, in Daniel chapter 12 with time, times and half and 1335, with allowing gematric messages. The idea time = 360 days is crucial also there.
The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it's BS.
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When you are a hammer, all the world looks like a watermelon. ~~ Gallagher
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Perhaps you could try introducing yourself,
Here is something about me and my life. I came to faith when being 11 by reading the New Testament. When being 14 I became an apostate. God did a lot of work to bring me back and I returned to Jesus when 25. That was in 2002. At that time I was a publishing research mathematician. I abandoned my career in 2007.
After that I have for example done work of God among alcoholics and drug-users and other persons with serious problems. Also served as a street evangelist and a Bible-teacher in a house-church. I have taken care of my mother with Alzheimer's. Not always did I succeed well in these things.
I did not want back to mathematics after leaving it. I was happy to move on. I was not especially interested on the prophetic area in the years before I started research on it (with few exceptions). I was more interested in boundaries of salvation, will of God, character of Jesus and the cross of Jesus. The boundaries of salvation is an important topic. In my country there is very much preaching of watered-down gospel, that repentance is not needed for salvation. But we in the house-church did not believe that. We prepared for counter-apostasy -work. As I said, there is apostasy inside and outside churches. Many are spiritually dead even if they come to meetings. Some are dead because they live in sin. Some are dead because they believe so unbiblical theology that they are following another Jesus. (Like Kenneth Copeland.) (See 2 Corinth. 11:4.) Understanding these things is useful for my work on the prophetic word. If I speak about details of God's judgements, I can also speak about why. If I ask people to leave certain cities to avoid calamities, I know I should also ask them to leave sin, repent. (Not that they would become sinless.)
I began research in the prophetic area through providence. God led me to unintendedly find out a thing that had serious implications. This led to more research and eventually to the study related to Revelation chapter 18. I do that research because of the souls that will encounter the sudden destruction. (That I would not claim too much about good motives, one should mention that human heart is evil and deceiving and has many motives, sometimes hidden, that can appear together with decent motives influenced by God. Sometimes these motives work on the same and sometimes to different direction as the acceptable motives. Sometimes good motives are only apparent, and real motives of the heart are evil.)
The research that I do is a serious issue. If I give a false alarm, I harden people's hearts to the true warning. This costs lives, and eternal lives. If, on the other hand, I know about a true danger and do not warn, I have blood on my hands, and this also costs eternal lives. See Ezekiel 3 and Ezekiel 33 and Proverbs 24:11-12. If I see special indications of danger but still there is not sufficient certainty for warning, and I abandon the whole thing when I have not yet done what I reasonably could to figure it out more certainly (or to find out that it really should be abandoned), then I am guilty to digging my talent to the ground.
But could I abandon those souls that will die in nuclear explosions? What would I say in the day it happens? I knew. What would I say to those who lost their children, sometimes unsaved children, in the nuclear explosions? Even if I give the warning now, they could come in front of me and say: "Why didn't you speak before?"
God would use someone else if I refused, and maybe He is already using others to bring these same observations forwards. But if I don't do my part, something is lost. Someone is lost.
Recently I came to conclusion that the threshold to warn is crossed.
Sorry for not being able to give more time to prepare the text that I posted. It could be very difficult to read.
I am here with my own name. I will not publicly discuss things in my life related specifically to other individuals (at least not without a direct permission), except public figures.
All glory to God, all shame to me. Without Jesus we can do nothing.
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When you are a hammer, all the world looks like a watermelon. ~~ Gallagher
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The idea time = 360 days is crucial also there.
You haven't explained the source of this idea yet. Where does the bible say that "time = 360 days"?
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The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it's BS.
Gematria can be cute. For example, in Hebrew the gematria of the word "wine" is the same as the word "secret". The implication being that when one drinks wine, secrets come out. I find this amusing. I wouldn't use gematria in theology, or to prove anything though. There are enough explicit messages in the bible that I don't feel the need to find hidden or esoteric ones...
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The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it's BS.
Gematria can be cute. For example, in Hebrew the gematria of the word "wine" is the same as the word "secret". The implication being that when one drinks wine, secrets come out. I find this amusing. I wouldn't use gematria in theology, or to prove anything though. There are enough explicit messages in the bible that I don't feel the need to find hidden or esoteric ones...
I once heard that the gematria for “bacon” is “crispy tasty salty delicious fruit of the swine,” but I didn’t take it seriously because I didn’t think there were enough letters…
Pesach soon, Fenris… Mrs. Fenris working up any especially delectable surprises for this year?
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I once heard that the gematria for “bacon” is “crispy tasty salty delicious fruit of the swine,” but I didn’t take it seriously because I didn’t think there were enough letters…
;D
Pesach soon, Fenris… Mrs. Fenris working up any especially delectable surprises for this year?
We were planning on being in Jerusalem with my son and daughter in law. We had plane tickets and a place waiting for us. Obviously our plans changed. The Mrs. will be doing some great cooking, but hasn't started yet...
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God would use someone else if I refused, and maybe He is already using others to bring these same observations forwards. But if I don't do my part, something is lost. Someone is lost.
Recently I came to conclusion that there is enough reason to warn, enough reason to proceed to other people.
Why is the self-appointed prophet a thing?
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The idea time = 360 days is crucial also there.
You haven't explained the source of this idea yet. Where does the bible say that "time = 360 days"?
Sorry if I haven't explained it well. I pointed to it briefly. I try to do it better now. It is based on the idea that Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 speak about the same issue in different ways, and it finds support from intervals of Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25 being the same.
Revelation 12:6 says: "and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." In the Greek there is essentially: place that has been prepared by God in order to nourish her there for 1260 days. So it does not say that she was nourished there for that time and then came verses 7-13 and then verse 14. I believe that the war in heaven (7-12) happened after resurrection, and that the time intervals of verses 6 and 14 were ongoing at the time of resurrection. Usually people see the intervals of 6 and 14 being connected to the time of tribulation. Many think that they both refer to a specific approximately 3.5-year time in the end times. Where I agree with many of them is that the verses speak about the same thing and therefore time intervals are the same, which is what is needed for the idea time=360 days. But I disagree with the verses referring exclusively to some tribulation-time period (or to the tribulation time period itself). The period of 42 months when the beast rules the world is part of what they refer to, and an important special fulfillment of a more general issue, but not the exclusive sense, I believe. (I believe they refer to God's protection to the church and Israel from apostolic times to the last generation before 1000-year kingdom, with that generation included.)
Revelation 12:14 says: "But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." Here the original text has a definite article: to the place of her; and nourishing is in present. The place is thus the same one referred before in verse 6. Many understand like me that the verses 6 and 14 speak about the same issue in two different ways. Both the time and the place are the same. From this comes "time, times and half a time = 1260 days” and “time = 360 days”. (Both verses 6 and 14 also add some details to the picture.)
Some believe that the war in heaven (verses 7-12) happened at the beginning of history or something like that. But this fits poorly to verses 11-13. And verse 8 would also contradict Job chapter 1 with such interpretation. But even in that interpretation one sees that the 1260 days interval was not completed before the war happened, quite the opposite. It still allows the verses 6 and 14 beginning at the same time essentially, and speaking about the same thing, since the war that was mentioned in between them was actually before both.
It is written about the beast of the Revelation that: "And a mouth was given to it, speaking great things and blasphemy, and it was given authority to act forty and two months." (Revelation 13:5). Verse 7 says: "And there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.". These can be compared to Daniel 7:25: "He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." . These two refer to the same time interval, I believe like many others. That is in firm grounds, for an eschatological claim. So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.
If we know that the place mentioned in Revelation 12:6 and 14 is the same, and verse 14 has the interval of 42 months with some interpretation of month, and 6 has the interval of 1260 days, that is 42 months of 30 days, we are pretty close to saying that the intervals are the same.
Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain. Further confirmation to the idea that time = 360 days in time, times and half comes from the fact that this idea helps to uncover what is in Daniel 12 and connects it to Daniel 8. Fulfilled data on history can be seen from these.
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Ok, so if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that the mathematical equation "Time, Time, plus a half Time equals 1260 days."
So let's solve for "X", where "X" = "Time".
X + X + X/2 = 1260.
Combining the left side, we get 5X/2 = 1260.
Multiply both sides by 2 to get rid of the denominator, we end up with 5X = 2520.
Divide both sides by 5, and we get X = 504.
Checking to make sure that this is correct, 504 + 504 + 504/2 = 1260.
So "Time" in this equation equals 504, not 360.
Other issues:
time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14
The Babylonians knew that the year was 365 days, not 360. And why would the author of Revelation, who was most certainly a Jewish-Christian, use the defunct Babylonian calendar instead of the Jewish one (which I explained above) or the Roman one (365.25 days)? Nobody else was using the Babylonian calendar by the first century.
So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.
So time is 360 days, or 12 months, or whatever you need it to be? This seems very inconsistent.
Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain.
I agree, it's impossible to know these things for certain. My question therefore is, why bother? Is the fate of my immortal soul dependent on my understanding of a few obscure passages scattered throughout the bible? Because it seems to me like what's important for a Christian to believe in God and accept Jesus's sacrifice. It seems much more explicit and reasonable than jumping through mathematical hoops using tenuous logic.
But I'm the local Jewish guy, so what do I know?
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You know what the essential Gospel is, unlike many claiming to be Christian
:o :-X
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Ok, so if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that the mathematical equation "Time, Time, plus a half Time equals 1260 days."
So let's solve for "X", where "X" = "Time".
X + X + X/2 = 1260.
Combining the left side, we get 5X/2 = 1260.
Multiply both sides by 2 to get rid of the denominator, we end up with 5X = 2520.
Divide both sides by 5, and we get X = 504.
Checking to make sure that this is correct, 504 + 504 + 504/2 = 1260.
So "Time" in this equation equals 504, not 360.
Other issues:
time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14
The Babylonians knew that the year was 365 days, not 360. And why would the author of Revelation, who was most certainly a Jewish-Christian, use the defunct Babylonian calendar instead of the Jewish one (which I explained above) or the Roman one (365.25 days)? Nobody else was using the Babylonian calendar by the first century.
So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.
So time is 360 days, or 12 months, or whatever you need it to be? This seems very inconsistent.
Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain.
I agree, it's impossible to know these things for certain. My question therefore is, why bother? Is the fate of my immortal soul dependent on my understanding of a few obscure passages scattered throughout the bible? Because it seems to me like what's important for a Christian to believe in God and accept Jesus's sacrifice. It seems much more explicit and reasonable than jumping through mathematical hoops using tenuous logic.
But I'm the local Jewish guy, so what do I know?
As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X
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The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it’s
[I suppose you continue with a shortcut of an expletive; as a foreigner I am poorly familiar with such]
I would not classify my work as numerology. Later in this message I explain why, and possibly continue in a later message. First I would like to mention that I share with you your low view of numerology to some extent. Typical idea among those who practise gematria is that if numbers of Hebrew words coincide, then at least in some cases this is related to some connection between the theological concepts. I find such a principle extra-Biblical. I do not assume or use such principle in my work, nor do I endorse it. I endorse Sola Scriptura.
Bible speaks about a valid use of gematria. That is the calculation of the number of the beast. So, one cannot say, that gematria should never be used by sober Christians in any way. But this could be the only case when the number has meaning in itself.
What comes to non-gematric numerology, there are some Bible-verses where 7 has a theological meaning, but usually these are not important for the message of the Bible. I know very few exceptions: In Luke 17:4 the number 7 probably refers to completeness; the verse hardly means that if someone sins against you 8 times in a day, you no longer need to forgive, but it means that you should forgive as many times as needed (7 being the number of perfectness). Matthew 18:22 has a similar point. The Lamb having 7 eyes in the Revelation can have somewhat important point, but these are all I know. God might have His reasons why there were exactly 7 trumpets and 7 seals etc in the Revelation, but it could be that we don’t need to know that, or knowing is unimportant. If someone would like discuss, for example, why in the parable of 10 virgins the number was exactly 10, I would say that if there is some message in that, the issue is very very much besides the point, and would be a distraction of attention. It could very well be that non-gematric numerology beyond the meaning of number 7 is nonsense, at least most of what is written about it.
I do not want my work to increase interest or attention to numerology nor do I want people to take numerology more seriously because of my work.
So, why is my work not numerology?
First, gematric values of names (of cities etc.) are used there only as a means of reference. They are not used for connections of theological concepts as in gematric numerology.
Second, non-gematric meanings of numbers (like 7 being the number of perfectness) play no role in my work whatsoever.
Third, gematric connections themselves are not used for inference of details in my work. That is, for example, if there is a city, whose number equals the number of phrase “nuclear explosions”, that is not regarded as evidence that there will be nuclear explosions in that city. There is such a city, actually. Number of Sankt Petersburg is 719, the same as the number of nuclear explosions. This, in itself, means nothing. What is in the prophetic message number system matters. (The number 719 does appear in the system, even in a critical place, so there could be something meaningful there related to it. It appears together with numerous other references to nuclear explosions or Revelation 18:4. So, reference to nuclear explosions is confirmed there, to put it simply. Then another question is, whether the reference to Sankt Petersburg too is a message by God or just a coincidence. One should look, whether it is accompanied by other references related to Sankt Petersburg. If yes, then we see that reference to Sankt Petersburg appears together with reference to nuclear explosions and Revelation 18:4. This is noteworthy, because of the text of Revelation 17 and 18, since, for example, the city was an imperial capital.)
If numbers of some cities coincide or satisfy a relation with each other, it means nothing. It is just numerology. Example: the number of Berlin is twice the number of London. Means nothing.
Concerning the first point above, recall that I proposed the first condition for the use of prophetic message numbers as: “First, the messages [of the numbers] should be about details [of prophecies], not doctrines. That is, the messages should be about times, places and other outer details [of prophecies], not doctrinal statements or claims about spiritual concepts.” I emphasize that prophetic message numbers either appear in the prophetic text of the Bible itself or correspond to it’s expressions in a non-gematric, non-numerological way. So, when we talk about a number of a city, it is not a prophetic message number in itself, but it can appear in a representation of a prophetic message number (or, in theory, can be equal to some prophetic message number). There is nothing spiritual in the number of the city being this or that. There is no need to figure out, what is the spiritually correct way to write the name and calculate the number. The common, established form is what God uses in these references. Such references are more compelling than those where each one could design their own versions of the spelling and therefore the number.
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That is, for example, if there is a city, whose number equals the number of phrase “nuclear explosions”, that is not regarded as evidence that there will be nuclear explosions in that city. There is such a city, actually. Number of Sankt Petersburg is 719, the same as the number of nuclear explosions. This, in itself, means nothing.
For it would be mere numerology -- okay.
What is in the prophetic message number system matters. (The number 719 does appear in the system, even in a critical place, so there could be something meaningful there related to it. It appears together with numerous other references to nuclear explosions or Revelation 18:4. So, reference to nuclear explosions is confirmed there, to put it simply. Then another question is, whether the reference to Sankt Petersburg too is a message by God or just a coincidence. One should look, whether it is accompanied by other references related to Sankt Petersburg. If yes, then we see that reference to Sankt Petersburg appears together with reference to nuclear explosions and Revelation 18:4. This is noteworthy, because of the text of Revelation 17 and 18, since, for example, the city was an imperial capital.)
But then you go on to do it anyway. All you've done is said "I'm doing it this way so it's okay, but those people over there doing it that way is not okay". It's still the same thing, it's just your pet approach.
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As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X
Aww you mean I did all that math for nothing?! :'(
Interestingly enough, there are Jewish commentators on Daniel 7 who say that this refers to a past event: Counting the years from the Exodus to the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem as being 1260 years.
Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"
And it's not religious authorities finding "the secret". It's not the Pope, or Martin Luther, or even Donall and Connall explaining it to Patrick. It's random internet people with too much time on their hands.
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Bible speaks about a valid use of gematria. That is the calculation of the number of the beast. So, one cannot say, that gematria should never be used by sober Christians in any way.
What we have is the bible using such a methodology one time. If you believe that the bible is holy writ, then the authors of the various books of the bible were divinely inspired. That doesn't mean that you are.
So, why is my work not numerology?
It is, though. You're just saying that when you do it, it is okay.
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As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X
Aww you mean I did all that math for nothing?! :'(
Interestingly enough, there are Jewish commentators on Daniel 7 who say that this refers to a past event: Counting the years from the Exodus to the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem as being 1260 years.
Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"
And it's not religious authorities finding "the secret". It's not the Pope, or Martin Luther, or even Donall and Connall explaining it to Patrick. It's random internet people with too much time on their hands.
I have a Jewish rabbinical student now declaring Donall and Connell as religious authorities!!!!
My work here is finished
🤔
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Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"
Dear Fenris
I did not mean that things I discovered are more important or equally important than the basic gospel message. When I talked about the importance of the issue for salvation of [some] souls, I ment that if an unsaved person dies suddenly in the nuclear explosions, he loses the chance to salvation, because he has no more time on Earth to repent and believe the gospel.
Think about the following situation. Suppose you were a head of a family, a Christian or a Jewish believer, and that your teenage children were at the moment in the state of apostasy. If it were true, that a nuclear terrorist attack was coming to your city, surely you would like to know it forehand if possible, so that you could bring your family to safety and get more time for your children to repent.
Actually, most people who die because of nuclear explosion die a slow and painful death. Some live minutes, some hours, some days, some live weeks or months. If they know that God of the Bible warned forehand, that increases the probability of turning to Jesus in their last minutes or hours or whatever time it takes.
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Actually, most people who die because of nuclear explosion die a slow and painful death.
At least that was the case in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ground level terrorist attack in a city full of skyscrapers can have a different distribution of ways of death.
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Who cares about a nuclear attack
“Today is the day of salvation.” Your children are much more likely to die of a heart attack or car wreck or random act of violence or a slip and fall in the bath than from nuclear explosion.
No one is promised tomorrow
Worrying about or trying to identify the place of a future supposed nuclear event is, in my view, foolish speculations on a grand scale. A subject of which the Paul explicitly warns against.
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God would use someone else if I refused, and maybe He is already using others to bring these same observations forwards. But if I don't do my part, something is lost. Someone is lost.
Recently I came to conclusion that there is enough reason to warn, enough reason to proceed to other people.
Why is the self-appointed prophet a thing?
It is true that the texts of Ezekiel that I referred to for this issue raise the question, who appointed me and how? Who sent me and how? But I also referred to Proverbs 24:11-12:
"11Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.
12If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it,
and will he not repay man according to his work?"
There the question is, do I know the danger? If I really have sufficient reason to believe that the issue is real, then I am obliged to do something. In this way the Bible itself sends me. And if the Bible sends me, one can also consider Ezekiel 3 and Ezekiel 33 in this context.
Jesus says:
"12“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
If I were living in those cities that will get sudden nuclear explosions according to my work, and somebody knew what I know, I would like to hear it.
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The horns of the dilemma …
If you are correct then millions die in nuclear holocaust
If you are wrong we have to stone you.
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Who cares about a nuclear attack
Why did US and Israel then attack Iran?
Unfortunately there are in the world a lot of antisemites or borderline antisemites that look for excuses for their views. The cited sentence of yours serves as one.
For this reason, please, I appeal you, please consider removing or altering this cited sentence. Of course, we don't know if you are a Jew, or just appear to be one by the name you use here. But they would not care.
For those, who read these posts before the sentence is (hopefully) removed, I say that it seems that RabbiKnife has got an "infection" of a problem that is widespread in western Christianity nowadays. It is not a Jewish thing. In western Christianity these days there is often a lot of talk about love, but then when actual love would be needed, there is "who cares" in the heart (if not in the lips). People do not want to face difficult or terrifying things or hear about them, they just want to think about their salvation and peace of mind and hear nice words about love.
It could very well be, that Messianic Jew have less of this problem than western heathen Christians.
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When you are a hammer, all the world looks like a watermelon. ~~ Gallagher
And I expected to see Trini Lopez.
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Who cares about a nuclear attack
Why did US and Israel then attack Iran?
Unfortunately there are in the world a lot of antisemites or borderline antisemites that look for excuses for their views. The cited sentence of yours serves as one.
For this reason, please, I appeal you, please consider removing or altering this cited sentence. Of course, we don't know if you are a Jew, or just appear to be one by the name you use here. But they would not care.
For those, who read these posts before the sentence is (hopefully) removed, I say that it seems that RabbiKnife has got an "infection" of a problem that is widespread in western Christianity nowadays. It is not a Jewish thing. In western Christianity these days there is often a lot of talk about love, but then when actual love would be needed, there is "who cares" in the heart (if not in the lips). People do not want to face difficult or terrifying things or hear about them, they just want to think about their salvation and peace of mind and hear nice words about love.
It could very well be, that Messianic Jew have less of this problem than western heathen Christians.
I have absolutely no idea what you are going on about. Why would I remove a truthful comment? I could absolutely not care less about the US/Israel actions against Iran from a biblical standpoint. Interesting politically and certainly in terms of regional security, but no grand biblical implications. And the next time you want to call me an anti-semite, just say it and demonstrate the absurdity of your words. Ask my dear Jewish friend on this thread, Fenris.
Again, you are working on the false assumption that the potential for dying in a nuclear holocaust at some undisclosed date in the future is in some way more destructive than dying of a car wreck or heart attack today is ludicrous. We are all going to die. Maybe today. When compared with dying today and going to hell, why would the thought of the potential of possibly maybe dying in a nuclear holocaust sometime in the future in some city you think you can identify with numerology be worth a farthing?
The scariest thing I can imagine is facing an eternity out of relationship with God. Nuclear holocaust pales in comparison.
Let me make that clearer. I would rather gladly die in a nuclear explosion knowing that my eternal destiny with God was settled and assured than live another hundred years without my eternal destiny settled even knowing that my city was not going to be blown up.
You are promoting a solution desperately in search of a problem of any eternal significance.
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Dear Fenris
I got called dear! <3
I did not mean that things I discovered are more important or equally important than the basic gospel message. When I talked about the importance of the issue for salvation of [some] souls, I ment that if an unsaved person dies suddenly in the nuclear explosions, he loses the chance to salvation, because he has no more time on Earth to repent and believe the gospel.
If someone doesn't already believe the gospel, they're not going to believe your gematria about it either.
Think about the following situation. Suppose you were a head of a family, a Christian or a Jewish believer, and that your teenage children were at the moment in the state of apostasy. If it were true, that a nuclear terrorist attack was coming to your city, surely you would like to know it forehand if possible, so that you could bring your family to safety and get more time for your children to repent.
Judaism doesn't work that way, although I understand your point.
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The horns of the dilemma …
If you are correct then millions die in nuclear holocaust
If you are wrong we have to stone you.
I was going to say...
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I say that it seems that RabbiKnife has got an "infection" of a problem that is widespread in western Christianity nowadays.
I have to disagree with you. RK has the clearest understanding of Christian doctrine of anyone I know. It is from him that I understand what being Christian means.
Mind you, I am not a Christian.
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Who cares about a nuclear attack
Why did US and Israel then attack Iran?
Unfortunately there are in the world a lot of antisemites or borderline antisemites that look for excuses for their views. The cited sentence of yours serves as one.
For this reason, please, I appeal you, please consider removing or altering this cited sentence. Of course, we don't know if you are a Jew, or just appear to be one by the name you use here. But they would not care.
For those, who read these posts before the sentence is (hopefully) removed, I say that it seems that RabbiKnife has got an "infection" of a problem that is widespread in western Christianity nowadays. It is not a Jewish thing. In western Christianity these days there is often a lot of talk about love, but then when actual love would be needed, there is "who cares" in the heart (if not in the lips). People do not want to face difficult or terrifying things or hear about them, they just want to think about their salvation and peace of mind and hear nice words about love.
It could very well be, that Messianic Jew have less of this problem than western heathen Christians.
I have absolutely no idea what you are going on about. Why would I remove a truthful comment? I could absolutely not care less about the US/Israel actions against Iran from a biblical standpoint. Interesting politically and certainly in terms of regional security, but no grand biblical implications. And the next time you want to call me an anti-semite, just say it and demonstrate the absurdity of your words. Ask my dear Jewish friend on this thread, Fenris.
I am sorry if my message left open the possibility of interpretation that you yourself would be an antisemite in disguise. I ment that if other persons, even some who are inclined towards antisemitism, read "Who cares about a nuclear attack", they might think that "How cruel a statement! So much without love. And it is a rabbi that made it...". So that you unintendedly give them an excuse, one of the many bad excuses they might pick.
By the way, I could name a late Christian preacher who was an expert of Judaism and did not mind being called a rabbi, even though he was not a Jew. When I said that you might not be a Jew, there were other possibilities involved than you having chosen username RabbiKnife for some evil motifs. (In my country there are even people who want to think they are Jews (in the ethnic sense) even though they are not, but this is probably very rare internationally.) Of course, I personally do not know you, so that left several possibilities open for me, but luckily there are here persons like Fenris, who know you well, so that there is no need to leave open such possibilities. I did not want to jump to conclusions about you being Jew, nor did I want others to do that, so I mentioned that I do not know that. When I appealed you, I was thinking or focusing on the possibility that you have no evil motif for using the username. Otherwise it would not have made sense. I am sorry if I offended.
What comes to the idea that in modern western Christianity many do not want to look at difficult truths and only want to think and hear about pleasant issues, it is visible in my country. For United States David Wilkerson has talked about it, at least. See, for example the sermon "Call to anguish" in Youtube. Leonard Ravenhill also considers the same or a related point.
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The horns of the dilemma …
If you are correct then millions die in nuclear holocaust
If you are wrong we have to stone you.
Well said. Of course, we know that you do not mean to stone literally in the New Covenant time. We know that you do not support such in this era. But the point is valid. But other Americans might not be as merciful as you...
(If others would misunderstand you as much as people here misunderstand me, then the clarification might be needed. But you are a known figure here, so that helps.)
Have a refreshing and holy pesach!
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The church has plenty of false prophets today
Folks that start their own blather with the words “God has given me a prophesy “ or “Thus sayeth the Lord”… without any accountability.
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(If others would misunderstand you as much as people here misunderstand me, then the clarification might be needed. But you are a known figure here, so that helps.)
We don't misunderstand you, but if you think so, feel free to (re)explain your approach in Finnish so that you aren't doing the ESL thing and I'll give it a read to see how it compares with your English.
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I would counter the op that hidden, secret or mathmatically interpreted passages of scripture are contrary to the thrust of the revelation which is bold and concise when recieved and understood contextually.
I agree 100%. The bible says so many things in a clear and explicit way. Why does anyone have to find esoteric and hidden meanings? Why would a kind and benevolent God make things that difficult?
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(If others would misunderstand you as much as people here misunderstand me, then the clarification might be needed. But you are a known figure here, so that helps.)
We don't misunderstand you, but if you think so, feel free to (re)explain your approach in Finnish so that you aren't doing the ESL thing and I'll give it a read to see how it compares with your English.
As an administrator who also partakes discussions you might participate in so many threads that you can easily forget minor points. I did not immediately remember myself either that it was exactly you, who admitted misunderstanding me earlier in the thread. It was not the only misunderstanding in the thread, it seems to me.
Often misunderstandings are nobody’s fault. They just happen. They happen to every one of us. Especially with difficult issues. Sometimes misunderstandings are due to the one who explains. There the language is not the only issue.
It is not impossible, though, that I over-emphasized the misunderstandings in the above quote.
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I did not immediately remember myself either that it was exactly you, who admitted misunderstanding me earlier in the thread.
That is a bizarre thing to remember given I've said no such thing. I'm assuming you have in mind response #10. The "Yep..." refers to your second sentence.
Kai sinulla on jo valmiina suomenkielinen selitys?
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Actually, most people who die because of nuclear explosion die a slow and painful death. Some live minutes, some hours, some days, some live weeks or months. If they know that God of the Bible warned forehand, that increases the probability of turning to Jesus in their last minutes or hours or whatever time it takes.
If you're going to turn to Jesus why not do it now?
If you're convinced that Jesus is the Messiah, the only way to salvation, why risk hanging around to accept him in your final minutes? It would be most ironic to find that you were able to unfathom all mysteries, figure out the exact date and time of the nuclear strike, plan your repentance for a few moments beforehand, only to fall from a ladder and die of blunt force trauma before you got to your appointed time.
If you're not convinced that Jesus is the Messiah then why would you go through a symbolic "turning" to a useless figure just because you thought you were about to fry? Wouldn't you figure out the right source of your new allegiance and, once you'd figured it out, wouldn't you turn to them now rather than later?
I often say that we can spend endless time studying the Revelation in a futile attempt to figure when The End in an eschatological sense might be and even if we were able to figure it out (which seems unlikely, given what Jesus said about knowing the day or the hour) we still wouldn't know when The End in a personal sense would be.
As the good Rabbi said, there are so many other ways we could die. if you look at deaths on US soil since the beginning of the millennium you'll find all sorts of interesting things. Attacks like 9/11/2001 get a lot of media attention, and rightly so, but over time peanut allergies have killed more people than terrorists. We hear the high profile stories of abducted children and insist they be kept under close supervision "to keep them safe" but nobody bats an eyelid when those same children suffer with problems like heart disease and diabetes because they spend their lives indoors, sitting down, staring at a screen.
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And any such specific warning(s) would be clearly delineated - not hidden obscurely in an oblique, uncertain equation.
The severity of the assumed judgment or cataclysm would, in fact, be immaterial and not the point. One either hears and believes the truth of the Gospel or doesn't. The rest is in GOD's hands.
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No explanation in Finnish :( I guess I'll have to settle for https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s000390050003
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We should look into both the goodness and the severity of God (Romans 11:22). God mourns for every soul that He has to condemn to hell. But he will indeed condemn countless souls to hell, and we cannot comprehend the seriousness of that. If God would just end the history right away, that would be easier for Him, since all sins of all generations were placed upon Jesus. But He bears us, despite that we all would deserve hell, and can only be saved through the blood of Jesus, if we repent and believe the gospel. That judgements in the world come in steps (and some of those gradually), is mercy to mankind. Many can see that judgements are indeed coming and can repent before dying. Some get the chance to repent when dying in the judgements. And God gives warnings ahead, which is proof to mankind of the reality of Him.
Some persons look arrogantly at the judgements of God: “It is only for those liberals. But I, even if I were there, would go straight to the heaven.” Some of those who think so are denying their faith by their deeds, like for example living in fornication or adultery. Sin in believers life can mean crucifying Jesus again. It is worse in front of God than sin of those who never knew Jesus. And if you are truly in a good condition in bad spiritual times, you cannot know how much of that is really because of your free-will choices and how much because you got the grace that God influenced you more than most people in your time, so that light would be preserved in some lamps.
Revelation chapters 17 and 18 speak about a great harlot, Babylon. I believe the harlotry refers to apostasy. There is apostasy inside and outside the churches, in conservative and liberal sides. I believe there is no single one-to-one correspondence of the Babylon to some earthly entity. Babylon is a spiritual concept and spiritual entity in the invisible world. Babylon has church-manifestations, city manifestations and country manifestations on the earth. Not differentiating between these and not realizing that there are two phases in the destruction described in chapter 18 has led to errors like speaking about annihilation of United States in this context. Even though Babylon is not a single entity on Earth, this does not mean that God would not give specific detailed warnings related to it’s destruction -quite the opposite is true, as we shall see.
Revelation chapter 18 speaks about a sudden destruction of a powerful, large and rich city in a fire whose smoke can be seen from the sea. I believe this refers to more than one city, and that it speaks about nuclear terrorist attacks, that David Wilkerson also spoke about. Verse 17:18 describes the city as an imperial capital, that will say, at some part of it’s history. The economical significance and power described in chapter 18 at the time of the destruction points to New York and London, if understood as a property of a singular city. New York was not an imperial capital, but it has UN Security Council which has “kingship over the kings of the earth” when it succeeds in making a decision. City of Rome can be recognized from chapter 17, which has references to both the city and the Roman Catholic Church.
I believe that Revelation 18 has two phases, earlier and latter. Verses 4-19 (or 9-19) are about the earlier phase essentially and the rest are about the latter phase. The earlier phase is about a great destruction that among other things takes the riches of the city away, but does not completely end the normal human life in the city (see verse 14). Observe that Hiroshima is still a major city today. The latter phase happens very late in the end times and means complete end of the normal human life in the city. See verses 22 and 23. Before the latter phase of destructions there happen persecutions of Christians all over the world (notice verse 20), but not necessarily before the first phase.
The well known Biblical expression “time, times and half” (moed, moedim wachetzi) is connected to several prophecies. It is also connected to Revelation chapter 18. Please take into account that a prophetic text can have several parallel correct meanings. One of the meanings of the word moed is appointed signal. It turns out that moed, moedim wachetzi gives signals related to cities of Revelation chapter 18. I will outline how the Hebrew expression gives the signals.
We know that the basic meaning of time, times and half is 1260 days, which corresponds to ‘time, 2 times and half’, with time being 360 days. This can be seen by comparing Revelation 12:6 and 12:14. The number 2 is not in the Hebrew or Greek expression; it can also mean ‘time, 3 times and half’, or ‘time, 4 times and half’ and so on. With the same value of “time” as in 1260 these interpretations correspond to 1620 days, 1980 days, 2340 days and so on. So, a single Hebrew expression gives actually a sequence of numbers, and it turns out that many of the early numbers of this infinite sequence have prophetic signals. The first one, 1260, contains 260, which is the number of District of Columbia in Hebrew according to standard modern Hebrew spelling. Daniel chapter 12 that also has the expression “time, times and half” says that these things will be sealed until the time of the end (see verse 9). The signals that I talk about are intended for the last generation and for the proper time. Most of the signals use the binary base, instead of decimal base. For this generation that is ok. God knew all bases and units and everything in His sovereign foreknowledge. Here is a list of some of the signals in these numbers.
1260 District of Columbia (Washington)
1620 Mexico City, Jerusalem (Jerusalem is possibly here due to reasons other than Revelation 18), Miami
1980 Rome, Damascus
2340 London, Berlin
2700 Istanbul
3060 New York, Kiev
3420 Moscow
3780 Amsterdam
4140 Madrid
Except the first one all these signals are of the type that the binary representation of the number on the left contains the binary representation of the number of the city in standard modern Hebrew spelling. Excluding Jerusalem and Miami these cities can all be regarded as imperial capitals (with New York included because of the Security Council). Even Kiev was the capital of Kievan Rus, the largest country of Europe in it’s time of greatness, and a major military power. Mexico City was the capital of Spanish Latin America, and before that the capital of the Aztec empire.
Later in the prophetic sequence there comes extensive references to Revelation 18:4. Together with that there are further references to specific cities. God has allowed confirmations that the numbers of cities are not all in the list coincidentally. For example, the number 1980 mentioned above, that contains the modern Hebrew number of Rome contains also the Greek number of Rome in binary.
I have done computer tests related to appearance of the cities in the binary representations of the prophetic numbers. The European part is more easily tested. The beginning of the list when counting only European cities is
1260 -
1620 -
1980 Rome
2340 London, Berlin (both numbers appear twice overlapping in 2340)
2700 Istanbul
3060 Kiev
3420 Moscow
This correlates with the list of cities ruling over greatest share of world population at the time of their peak power, which for Europe would begin: Rome, Istanbul, London, Berlin, Moscow, S. Petersburg, Paris. (Istanbul was for a time the capital of the whole Roman Empire). This is connected to Revelation 17:18. Computer test that took into account first 5 of the prophetic numbers and first 7 of the cities in their historical ranking gave probability less than 11000 for random coincidence. This is indeed small enough to take notice.
God is providing information about where to leave to avoid judgement of the Babylon-cities. As promised in Revelation 18 (through verses 4 and following), the information about leaving will be available before the destruction. What is in this sequence of prophetic message numbers is part of that information. It is also part of the handwriting on the wall. God, in His faithfulness, gives handwriting on the wall that is for everyone to see, after it is discovered, handwriting that comes through the Bible itself. Bible is exactly where to anchor in the last times.
The seriousness of the issue necessitates caution. God has nevertheless provided multiple confirmations to many details. Many numbers of cities contained in the sequence are accompanied by numbers of words closely connected to the city. For example in 2340 the number of Berlin (292) appears twice overlapping itself in binary. In the same number there is also the number the river Spree in the city. And the next number 2700 in the sequence has the number of Berlin in Greek.
About prophetic message numbers in general
Still, for the issue of getting messages from prophetic message numbers, as those above, caution is needed. When getting messages from prophetic message numbers I propose the following five conditions. First, the messages should be about details, not doctrines. That is, messages should be about times, places and other outer details, not doctrinal statements or claims about spiritual concepts. Second, the details should be about the prophecy where those prophetic message numbers appear. If that prophecy is connected to another prophecy, the message number can be about details of that other prophecy too. Third, the message number should appear in the prophetic text as a message number. For this, one should allow unconventional understandings of the text. Fourth, the message should fit into how that message number appears in the prophetic text. Fifth, the message number should be demonstrated to have truthful data as a message number. In case of a number related to a prophecy whose fulfillment is entirely in the future, the truthful data should relate to known details of the domain where it will presumably be fulfilled (according to a reasonable understanding of the text). Instead of “domain” one can have something specific of the real world related to the proposed fulfillment. Here one should require that the truthful data is not plausible as a coincidence. Without these 5 conditions or something similar one could claim that Bible says almost anything through prophetic message numbers.
Brief analysis of the prophetic word related to the prophetic message numbers
In the case above these 5 conditions are satisfied, even though I have not yet proved it here. To this end, consider first Daniel 12, where it is written
“5Then I, Daniel, looked, and two others were standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the other. 6One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the end of these extraordinary things? ” 7Then I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river. He raised both his hands toward heaven and swore by Him who lives eternally that it would be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people is shattered, all these things will be completed.”
Time, times and half is connected to 2300 years through it’s basic meaning 1260 days. The numeric value of the expression “alpayim we-shelosh meot”, when written as in modern Hebrew with two yods in alpayim to distinguish it from alafim, is precisely 1260. It is known, that one fulfillment of 2300 ereb boqer is the time interval ending in 1967. At that time the last generation was already there. It is also known that the coming of Jesus cannot be known more accurately than the generation. In Daniel 12:7 the answer is actually that the end-times generation is there at the end of the 2300-year interval, what comes to time.
After learning this, let us look into Revelation chapter 12. Revelation 12:5 refers to Jesus and His ascension to heaven. The next verse says: “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”. This is often understood as speaking about some specific difficult 3.5-years in the end times. But that is not the only meaning here (if it speaks about that at all). The being in the prepared place started after the ascension of Jesus. This speaks about God’s protection in general throughout new covenant history all the way to the last generation, including the last generation. Here as in Daniel 12 the number 1260 refers to 2300 years, which end at 1967, and mark the last generation. After the last generation, in the thousand year kingdom, there is no longer need for similar God’s protection, since Jesus rules on Earth and the devil is bound.
Verse 14 says “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.”. I skip the issue of the meaning of the great eagle here for brevity, but I believe, that in the general case the two wings are obedience and prayer, which can be confirmed by Bible verses as you know. So far this is about the general case of protection of God for His people. But there is also more specific information here related to God’s protection in some case or cases.
In verse 14 we have a Greek version of moed, moedim wachetzi, καιρόν, καὶ καιρούς, καὶ ἥμισυ καιροῦ (in accusative). Since this is a specific spiritual concept or phrase, that appears both in Greek and Hebrew, I consider it legitimate to look into it’s meanings’ nuances in both languages when considering it in the Greek text. Consider the Hebrew meaning “appointed signal, appointed signals and part [of appointed signal]” in the Greek sentence. It is in the accusative case and it specifies verb τρέφεται (she is nourished, she is supported). Accusative specifies basicly the extent of the action of the verb, that is, where the action reaches, where it happens. In some rare cases it specifies according to what the action of the verb happens. Here essentially she is supported according to appointed signals. The signals give information about the limits and extent of the support, for example, from what cities you have to leave to avoid death in Revelation 18.
How about the appointedness issue of these appointed signals? Appointed how? The destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18 is a major issue what comes to the security, and the request to leave Babylon-cities before destruction is a major issue related to God’s protection. As such it is a big single part of the protection that Revelation 12 speaks about. In Revelation 18 we see, that information about leaving comes before the destruction. In this sense the issue is appointed to be signaled at appropriate time. God’s choice to call it “Babylon” in the context of it’s destruction places the destruction of historical Babylon as it’s type. There we have the well known issue of the handwriting on the wall. It is reasonable therefore to consider the appearance of a handwriting on the wall as something to watch for. The handwriting on the wall is the appointed signal.
Therefore, a reason for anguish for other souls:
In Jeremiah 9 there is
“20Hear, O women, the word of the LORD,
and let your ear receive the word of his mouth;
teach to your daughters a lament,
and each to her neighbor a dirge.
21For death has come up into our windows;
it has entered our palaces,
cutting off the children from the streets
and the young men from the squares.
22Speak: “Thus declares the LORD,
‘The dead bodies of men shall fall
like dung upon the open field,
like sheaves after the reaper,
and none shall gather them.’” ” Each body is someone’s daughter or son. Could be someone’s husband or wife, father or mother. Even the family members don’t grasp the full tragedy, since most of those who die instantly go to eternal hell. For family members this is something that people don’t even bare to look at. But there is still hope since there is still time to leave. There is still time to show to nonbelievers, that The Living God is real after all, and knew our time and it’s geography thousands of years ago. His judgements are real, too.
What cities should receive the warning:
Europe:
Rome (confirmed)
London (confirmed)
Berlin (confirmed)
Istanbul (at least partly confirmed)
Moscow
Petersburg
Madrid (confirmed)
Amsterdam (confirmed)
Brussels (confirmed)
Vienna
Lisbon (confirmed)
Paris (confirmed)
Kiev
Americas:
New York (confirmed)
Washington
Mexico city
Current (unconfirmed) understanding that I have is that in the United States the nuclear terrorist attacks happen in the greatest urban areas up to Miami and in the greatest metropolitan statistical areas up to Washington. (Both lists begin with New York.) Some strategic targets are possible besides these.
Asia:
Damascus (confirmed)
Jerusalem (unclear, number of Jerusalem in the list is possibly connected to prophecies about the Old City, not Revelation 18. It is hardly the case that God is telling people to leave Jerusalem.)
Whole Elam is in danger of destruction -this can mean Iran or Pakistan or both. This happens probably/possibly after the nuclear terrorist attacks. I believe that the nuclear warheads (missiles are not involved here) are from the beast of the Revelation (see Revelation 17:16) or his future co-rulers, and I do not believe he is from Pakistan. He does his best to hide the true origin of the nuclear warheads, and he is “skilled in intrigue”.
For Damascus there is the prophecy Isaiah 17:1-3. Also the general law of blessing or cursing Israel is relevant here, as is also true for Iran.
There can be other cities besides these.
Jesus be with you and guide you to all truth
Tomi Laakso
Finland
Classic TL;DR
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So, why is my work not numerology?
It is, though. You're just saying that when you do it, it is okay.
The main issue is not whether my work should be called numerology or not. That depends on how broad definition of numerology one takes. The important issue is whether my work shares with numerology the reasons that make it trash.
Futility of traditional gematria ; comparison to my work
There are more than 8000 Strong’s numbers for the Hebrew Bible. Typically the gematric number of a word is less than 1000. Several words are written exactly in the same way (not counting niqqud), and such words are often etymologically related. Such words would give trivial examples of gematric equality, so it is better to discount them. Taking only one from each such class, and discounting proper names leaves a significantly smaller number of different Hebrew words. The exact number of such words is not needed for the following reasoning.
Suppose for simplicity that we have 1000 different Hebrew words such that each of them has gematric number less than or equal to 1000. Then there are at most 1000 possible gematric values for the words. Therefore we have thousand values that go into 1000 possible slots, some of which will get values from more than one words, and some of them getting values from no words at all. (The slot is the numeric value of the word, nothing more.) Suppose first for simplicity that the probability distribution of the values is uniform in (0,1000]. It is not, but that fact will make the case even more problematic for gematria.
Probability that some slot gets no values at all is (1-1/1000)^1000 = 0,368 . (This is approximately 1 over the Euler’s number e, see the limit definition of e.) The expectation value is that among the 1000 slots there are 368 such slots. Probability that some slot gets exactly 1 value is 1000/1000 * (1-1/1000)^(1000-1) = 0,368, approximately the same value as before. Again, the expectation value is that among the 1000 slots there are 368 such slots, each one getting the gematric value from exactly 1 word. This means that the expectation value is that all the remaining 632 words share gematric value with 1 or more words. It turns out that the expectation value is that there are about 500 different gematric equations, each of the form n(w_1)=n(w_2), that is, the number of the word w_1 equals the number of the word w_2. (The reverse order equation n(w_2) = n(w_1) is not counted as a different equation, but as the same equation.)
So, 500 accidental equations with 1000 words. Not good at all.
The fact that the probability distribution of gematric values is not uniform means that it is concentrated somewhere. This means that there will probably be even more gematric equations, since there will be more slots with more than one words and more slots with no words at all. So it will in all probability increase the number of accidental gematric equations. Combine this with all the possible conceptual theological connections between words. This is a huge number. It gets even huger if we count all minor insignificant connections. It gets even worse, if we count all potential conceivable connections, many of which only exist in some theologian’s imagination. It could be that any given words (or most of them, at least) would admit at least some seeming and remote connection. Of course, many many gematric equations are then combined with some claimed connection between the words whose numbers match. From those more than 500 equations one finds many where the connection appears significant. If one picks the very best, it can look like “surely this is the hand of God”, but there is no real reason to think so.
Those who practice gematria traditionally reject those gematric equations for which there is no Biblical basis. This is wise, even necessary, but why do we need gematria then? If we know the connection of the concepts without gematria, why do we need gematria? There is the danger that a seeming connection becomes accepted as real because of gematria. There is another danger. Since gematria produces these equations randomly, it gives a misdirection of attention and emphasis even with real connections. Why should we pay attention to a connection that is brought forwards by gematria? We should not, because it is a random misdirection which does not bring us to the point in general, but besides the point. This is not disproved by taking the very best of the random examples and appealing to them.
In my work the situation is very different. Monte Carlo -simulations indicate that there is something very different from normal accidental coincidences there. The difference is of similar type to difference between pseudo-medicine and medicine tested on trial. For those who do not know, Monte Carlo -simulations are computational tests that estimate the probability that a certain kind of phenomenon happens coincidentally. Often it is too difficult to calculate, and one has to estimate it experimentally. One goes through a huge number of random cases and looks, how often the phenomenon happens.
There are differences beyond the statistics. Gematria deals with connections of Biblical concepts, an issue that has bigger or smaller theological content, depending on the case. My work only deals with practical details of fulfillments of prophecies. In a subsequent message I discuss, if God grants, why it is better to accept the practical details instead of theological content from the numbers.
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Practical details versus doctrines
For my work, no theological meanings of numbers are considered. Just down to the earth data. Only practical details of prophecies are inferred. Why is this? Why is it better to get practical details from the prophetic message numbers than doctrines or other theological content?
2 John verse 9 says :”Anyone going on ahead, and not abiding in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. The one abiding in the teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.” (Berean Literal Bible). These are serious words, and seriously we should take them. Going further to new doctrines is a terrible thing, and should be carefully avoided.
In the same (only) chapter of 2 John the verse 6 says: “And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.” (English Standard Version). This tells us that there cannot suddenly appear new moral principles. (But ignored commandments can be taken into account anew.) Moral teaching is part of theology. Moreover, there is no strict limit between teachings about the will of God and other doctrines. Christian morals includes many things: rebuking the transgressors, encouraging the downcast by word of God, refreshing the exhausted by word of God, etc… In the many situations that a servant of God encounters the various issues of acquaintance of God and details of His plan of salvation play a role, so that he/she knows how to encourage truthfully, refresh spiritually and warn as needed. Truth about God is not separate from will of God. Then, one concludes, there cannot be new doctrinal content, but only what has been there available since the Bible was written. Nothing new about acquaintance of God, nothing new about salvation, nothing new about spiritual concepts.
Prophetic message numbers, on the other hand, are like data-packages in prophecies. Prophecies in the Bible are not written like: “So and so many years after this and that event, so and so many kilometers from Jerusalem to this and that direction in a city of such and such size there happens a sudden major destruction.” But God has His ways to point to the details, when He chooses so. But He cannot write things like in the above example; He chose not to tell people in 4th century that Jesus did not come before 21st century. If He had put all details in a plain and simple way, people would have known, say, in 16th century, that His coming is still far, far away, even if He had left direct time-references out. That was not God’s will. God points to the details in such a way, that the generation that will see the destruction in the Babylon-cities can understand it, when He lifts the veil.
There is no need for data-packages for doctrines. There is no need to seal doctrines for later time, nor would such make sense. Such alternative is not even acceptable in the light of 2 John. There are no hidden doctrines. (Those answers that are not given to us will not be given to us in this life.) But some details related to end times were sealed in Daniel 12 up to the last generation (Dan 12:9). The sealing ment that one could not understand all of the prophecy and get all the information before the proper time.
If God grants, I will show here in near future how God gives accurate fulfilled prophetic details through the prophetic message number 1335 in Daniel 12 together with the prophetic message number 1260 corresponding to time, times and half (that is also in Daniel 12). Others have found accurate fulfillment(s) of 1335 too. (A prophetic passage can have several fulfillments.). The point is that one can show that God uses 1335 as a prophetic message number, as a data package, with gematria, too -but nobody can show that God uses some prophetic message number to give new direct theological messages. Theology cannot be observed from the world in the same way as details of fulfilled prophecies can.
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Is everything where gematria plays some role trash?
It is difficult to maintain both of the following positions simultaneously: A) Everything, where gematria plays some role (other than calculating the number of the beast), is numerology. B) All numerology is trash.
Let us consider this.
As I said, I will show here in near future, if God grants, how God gives accurate fulfilled prophetic details through the prophetic message number 1335 in Daniel 12 together with the prophetic message number 1260 that corresponds to time, times and half (that is also in Daniel 12). Others have found accurate fulfillment(s) of 1335 too. (A prophetic passage can have several fulfillments.). The point is that one can show that God uses 1335 as a prophetic message number, as a data package, with gematria, too. So this is a counter-example to A) and B) being simultaneously true. But there is another reason to doubt it, a reason related to the warning to the cities that I am talking about.
For the destruction of “Babylon” in Revelation 17-18 God decides to call it Babylon. That brings readers to consider that the destruction of historical Babylon is in some aspects a type of the destruction of the end times “Babylon” (and that Babylon itself is in some aspects a type of the end times “Babylon”). When the historical empire of Babylon fell, there was the handwriting on the wall. It is natural to expect or at least consider the possibility that this is also a type of what will happen in the end times. Daniel says when speaking about the handwriting on the wall: “ “And this is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; ” (Daniel 5:25-26, NKJV). Notice that there is not the word “days” here that some translations add (saying, like, numbered the days of your kingdom). The “days” is not in the Hebrew text. The kingdom is numbered, or it’s number is counted. His (Belshazzars) kingdom was Babylon. In Revelation 18, which speaks about destructions of the Babylon the focus is largely on city-manifestations of Babylon. In the handwriting on the wall connected to Revelation 18:4 there will indeed be a role for counting of the number of each Babylon-city. Remember that a prophetic text can have more than one message. I am not saying that gematria played some role for the original handwriting on the wall in Belshazzar’s time. But the end times Babylon is a different matter.
One can complain (correctly) that the text says that God has numbered, not man. Let him/her consider the following. It is indeed God, who has actually put the number for each city. God has arranged through providence that the names of the cities will be such that their numbers appear in the prophetic message numbers.
For a human being it is impossible to write anything in numbers that are determined by a simple equation, since they cannot change these numbers to incorporate the message. There are no degrees of freedom available for a many-part message. But God can arrange the message, since He decides if He so wishes, what the names of the cities and their numbers will be, and can therefore force them to appear in the prophetic message numbers. So the message comes indeed through God putting numbers to these cities (and to related concepts for confirmation), not through putting something directly to the prophetic message numbers that are determined by an equation. (But God has possibly chosen the sequence that I have talked about because of some special mathematical properties that suit to His purposes.)
It was of course impossible for people in Daniel’s time to know about these cities, many of which were not yet founded. But the prophecy was not from men, of course, but from God.
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I long for clarity in this speculative interpretive scheme at least equal to the time when ‘twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and frolickin the wabe; all mimsy were the borogoves and the mine raths outgrabe
Still trying to convince folks to run from some undisclosed cities at some unknown and unknowable point in the future and for those future persons to then turn to Jesus then instead of just explaining the Gospel to them now?
I think scripture calls this vain speculations
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The main issue is not whether my work should be called numerology or not. That depends on how broad definition of numerology one takes. The important issue is whether my work shares with numerology the reasons that make it trash.
Futility of traditional gematria ; comparison to my work
There are more than 8000 Strong’s numbers for the Hebrew Bible. Typically the gematric number of a word is less than 1000.
This is a function of word length and alphabet distribution. It's very difficult for one to see how this relates to deep spiritual truths or hidden secrets in the bible. And honestly, I fail to see the point of it all. I'm going to keep repeating what I said: The bible contains so many explicit truths of importance, it's really difficult for me to see why God would hide "these very important things" in some cryptographical manner.
Even the Jewish sage and scholar Maimonides, who considered belief in the concept of the messiah to be fundamental to Judaism, said not to worry too much about the details of when or how. Just believe in the general idea. To do any more is a waste of time, and it does not bring one to either love or fear God. And I believe that he is correct. My son like to say that we all know how this story is going to end.
Suppose for simplicity that we have 1000 different Hebrew words such that each of them has gematric number less than or equal to 1000. Then there are at most 1000 possible gematric values for the words. Therefore we have thousand values that go into 1000 possible slots, some of which will get values from more than one words, and some of them getting values from no words at all. (The slot is the numeric value of the word, nothing more.) Suppose first for simplicity that the probability distribution of the values is uniform in (0,1000]. It is not, but that fact will make the case even more problematic for gematria.
This is just a probability and statistics game. Any book of sufficient length could be used to generate codes, so the practice seems to me to be of dubious value.
Probability that some slot gets no values at all is (1-1/1000)^1000 = 0,368 . (This is approximately 1 over the Euler’s number e, see the limit definition of e.) The expectation value is that among the 1000 slots there are 368 such slots.
I...have no idea what the inverse of e has to do with this particular problem or what you're trying to say here.
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When the historical empire of Babylon fell, there was the handwriting on the wall. It is natural to expect or at least consider the possibility that this is also a type of what will happen in the end times.
Why?
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Suppose for simplicity that we have 1000 different Hebrew words such that each of them has gematric number less than or equal to 1000. Then there are at most 1000 possible gematric values for the words. Therefore we have thousand values that go into 1000 possible slots, some of which will get values from more than one words, and some of them getting values from no words at all. (The slot is the numeric value of the word, nothing more.) Suppose first for simplicity that the probability distribution of the values is uniform in (0,1000]. It is not, but that fact will make the case even more problematic for gematria.
This is just a probability and statistics game. Any book of sufficient length could be used to generate codes, so the practice seems to me to be of dubious value.
The part you wrote that I emphasized is an important fact and related to my work in general. It is related to why it makes sense to require some of those 5 conditions that I propose for prophetic message numbers. I believe that we should not take arbitrary Biblical encodings as voice of God, even if they would be statistically significant. The concept of prophetic message numbers is different from arbitrary Biblical encodings. (It is correct to say, anyhow, that something is encoded in the prophetic message numbers themselves.) But without those 5 requirements the concept of prophetic message numbers could nevertheless become a trash-producing machine.
For one thing, I required (in the simple form) that the numbers appear in the text as prophetic message numbers. This excludes cases like taking a number or few numbers near each other from Numeri or from genealogies, and treating them as prophetic message numbers. If one could do that, then, from that larger pool of arbitrary possibilities one would find accidentally some that seem to have some message in a statistically significant way. For another thing, I required that the messages that one reads from the prophetic message numbers are related to the content of the prophecy where they come from, or other prophecies connected to that prophecy. Without this one could go through the enormous set of all possible issues and find some issue, where coincidentally there would be a message together with apparent statistical significance. These I want to exclude. This is related to why my work is not trash even though numerology in general is and prophesying from encodings generally is trash.
Who read this, please notice also the less important point that in the part of my message that Fenris cited, I was not talking about encodings in some book but gematric equations. They are determined by the language, the spelling system and word-number -correspondence. They are book-independent. Maybe his point was like “the whole consideration is futile because…”. But to this I can say what I said above.
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The part you wrote that I emphasized is an important fact and related to my work in general. It is related to why it makes sense to require some of those 5 conditions that I propose for prophetic message numbers. I believe that we should not take arbitrary Biblical encodings as voice of God, even if they would be statistically significant.
No disrespect, but all you're saying is that you don't believe in "other bible codes". But you went looking for your codes for a topic that you believed in, and lo and behold, you found them! This is the definition of "confirmation bias".
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The part you wrote that I emphasized is an important fact and related to my work in general. It is related to why it makes sense to require some of those 5 conditions that I propose for prophetic message numbers. I believe that we should not take arbitrary Biblical encodings as voice of God, even if they would be statistically significant.
No disrespect, but all you're saying is that you don't believe in "other bible codes". But you went looking for your codes for a topic that you believed in, and lo and behold, you found them! This is the definition of "confirmation bias".
I confirm your confirmation of his confirmation bias.
For my conservative friends: When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
For my not so conservative friends: Never pass up an expensive and needless solution in search of a problem.