BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: RabbiKnife on March 02, 2026, 11:31:10 AM
-
I've been teaching Sunday School for the last several weeks, and next week I'll be in Genesis 2 and 3.
I already know the question of "original sin" as most protestants and evangelicals currently understand the caricature of the doctrine is going to come up. I'm sure without knowing the names, propositions from everyone from Augustine to Calvin to Arminius to Pelagius to the Nicean Council will be spouted as Gospel truth without possibility of discussion, and charges of heresy if one does not agree.
What say ye? Where do you folks fall on the spectrum? I find the subtle distinction of the Eastern Orthodox between "what is the effect of original sin" and "what is the effect of actual sin" to be quite interesting.
Essentially, the EO (as I understand their position, which is essentially the same as what Arminius actually said) hold that the effect of Adam and Eve's original sin was to strip mankind of original innocence/holiness, and that the punishment for original sin was the removal of that original innocence/holiness/purity -- creating a condition in which the deterrent to actual sin was removed, making the human much more susceptible to temptation and acting in sin; ergo, the current human is not punished again for Adam's original sin, the removal of the original holiness being a just punishment. This is not, however, the "humans have a sin nature and are already damned because of the federal headship sin of Adam."
Is that an oversimplification?
What say the folk?
-
I think that describes my own view, which I would re-iterate, does not include this notion of "corrupted human nature", particularly as Adam and Eve were well capable of sinning while in the garden.
I understand the curses to be descriptive not prescriptive, and we are otherwise as we were created. This I think makes more powerful the incarnation. Jesus didn't cheat by instantiating a prelapsarian version of humanity -- we are still that version of humanity (lest someone accuse me of Pelegianism), and there is no other version of humanity. And we all inevitably repeat that original sin in our own ways, and then multiply it.
-
Agreed
I’m going to get in so much trouble…
-
Agreed
I’m going to get in so much trouble…
Yeah but I'm pretty sure everyone in the room would be able to read Greek better than Augustine could.
-
Agreed
I’m going to get in so much trouble…
Yeah but I'm pretty sure everyone in the room would be able to read Greek better than Augustine could.
It's their English reading and comprehension I'm worried about...
-
This is a purely Christian topic. I therefore have no opinion. I will read the replies with interest, however. Always good to learn something new.
-
This is a purely Christian topic. I therefore have no opinion. I will read the replies with interest, however. Always good to learn something new.
As you might imagine, suggesting that Adam and Eve's sin did not result in ontological corruption of humanity, such that we did not inherit a sin-corrupted nature ('nature' here is heavily borrowing from Plato), is very contentious. If you aren't immediately accused of being Pelegian, you're more generally accused of suggesting that someone could work their way to righteousness, and live a sinless life purely through their own effort.
Point out that ontological corruption strips everyone of culpability? No no, Pelegian. Point out that separated from God, each other, the world, etc., our sinning is all but assured? No no, Pelegian. Point out that the very fact of separation is as much a state of sin as any other? No no, Pelegian.
The divide is maybe simplified like this: one group locates the motivation for people's sin in corruption of human nature, while the other group locates the motivation for people's sin in the world. Nature necessitates in a unique way that the world does not. And as a consequence another simplification may be to posit the difference in restoration: one group sees it is forensic, the other, relational.
Sometimes I would love to find the notion of a nature-corrupting "original sin" compelling. I could say, "I am compelled! My nature made me do it! I didn't want to, but I had no choice!" Well but instead I must admit, that I'm an idiot because I choose to be an idiot. And well it has this curious other effect... Suddenly, God doesn't hate everyone. God seeks to restore relationship with all, not just a limited elect while damning the rest because sovereignty.
-
That was very detailed. Thank you for that explanation.
-
That was very detailed. Thank you for that explanation.
He ^^^ knows his stuff. His (and mine) is not the majority view. Many of my evangelical friends could consider this view heretical. And they wouldn’t be slow to call it heresy.
The theological apologetic is very subtle, and unfortunately, many(most) conservative Christians are not known for either their subtlety and nuance or for their intellectual vigor. Name calling and labeling before cancelling are just so much easier.
-
Put 2 toddlers in a room with loads of beautiful toys, close the door and watch what is going to happen. They will enjoy all the toys one by one until........... one toddler wants to have the toy of the other toddler which the other toddler refuses to give. Then watch the violence.
Who told them ?
Nobody.
-
Put 2 toddlers in a room with loads of beautiful toys, close the door and watch what is going to happen. They will enjoy all the toys one by one until........... one toddler wants to have the toy of the other toddler which the other toddler refuses to give. Then watch the violence.
Who told them ?
Nobody.
No one suggests otherwise.
They both fall fighting over the truck and crush their little skulls.
Do they go to hell because of their “sin nature” inherited from Daddy Adam?
-
Depends on who you ask -
Augustine - nagging, pushing, persisting selfish babies who insist the mother's breast.
Paul - Efez 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
David - Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Instead of sin-nature I suggest :
1. Fallen state.
2. Made lower.
3. In need for Christ.
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.
As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).
So what does "made lower" mean?
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.
As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).
So what does "made lower" mean?
I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?
Even Augustine considered it - Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?
Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.
-
Why did A&E have a choice and I don’t?
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.
As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).
So what does "made lower" mean?
I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?
Even Augustine considered it - Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?
Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.
What is the choice that we don't have that A&E had?
One of the lessons of A&E is this: we would all have sinned in the garden. Not because we have a corrupted nature, but because we're imperfect. "Good", not "perfect". So when's the last time you felt the anxiety of looking at your wife as she held a fruit from a tree you weren't supposed to eat. The anxiety that worsens as you see her take a bite, and the conflict that erupts inside as she then hands it to you? This woman who is the only one in existence, and was made from you? Do you really think you're choosing God in the same circumstance with the same parameters? You're a better person than me.
I don't think that fruit was anything special, by the way. They gained knowledge of good and evil by practicing evil. They didn't simply know, they did. And then they did some more because, well, imagine that cognitive and emotional awakening. All of those thoughts and feelings for the first time ever. The fear, pain, the horror, the anxiety, the resentment, the distrust. God could have easily just said, "don't walk over there or you'll surely die" and the result is the same. The lesson was in love, the specifics of the "do not" don't matter. The fruit is interesting because it means they took something inside of them -- experience, and also knowledge, and that was passed to us by virtue of the world.
With A&E we trade in advantages and disadvantages. Should you find yourself as you are today with that choice, you'd never take the fruit. You know what they couldn't, but if they could know? I don't think they would have either. But they lived something we can't imagine. They sinned there, we sin here.
So what's that "choice" that they had that we don't?
-
Why did A&E have a choice and I don’t?
In other words then -
Because A&E did not have to fall with one simple commandment. We (and more than 100 billion that ever lived) did fall by default with reference to Romans 3:3 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Created in a fallen state, missing something A&E had, created lower. Sinners by default, no escape.
Same with the angels, they also have free will, some did fall, the vast majority remained loyal upon this day. Same principle as A&E, those angels who fell did not have to fall.
With respect to the other differences I listed, we can not compare the life of A&E created in the presence of God as adults with our earthy life outside the presence of God.
On the bright side, our stay on Earth is just a blip in time of eternity when everything is restored by Jesus and we will live in the presence of God in eternity as originally intended by our good Lord.
In the hope it is more clear now.
-
What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.
I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.
As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).
So what does "made lower" mean?
I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?
Even Augustine considered it - Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?
Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.
What is the choice that we don't have that A&E had?
See my answer to RK.
One of the lessons of A&E is this: we would all have sinned in the garden.
That's an assumption, you can not know.
As evidence, a number of angels fell, not the vast majority.
A&E did not had to fall.
Not because we have a corrupted nature, but because we're imperfect. "Good", not "perfect". So when's the last time you felt the anxiety of looking at your wife as she held a fruit from a tree you weren't supposed to eat. The anxiety that worsens as you see her take a bite, and the conflict that erupts inside as she then hands it to you? This woman who is the only one in existence, and was made from you? Do you really think you're choosing God in the same circumstance with the same parameters? You're a better person than me.
Humor after all :)
Some regarding the temptation will say, they, A&E wanted to be like God. I understand it as A&E insisted to know what God withheld from them, to know not only good but to be like God knowing evil also. Either way, it's rebellion. And ironically (if that is a good word) they got what they wanted.
Unfortunately the story does not tell us if they understood what "you surely shall die" meant.
-
Modern science agrees with the Bible and specifically with Jeremiah, that human beings possess something extremely dark within them. As Jeremiah says, "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked." This is what science variously calls "the dark core of human personality" and "the seething mass within."
This is not a doctrine; it is the reality of the human condition. The Bible is about what is true and false, not about doctrinal belief.
The word mistranslated as "doctrine" in modern Bibles simply means teaching; there is correct teaching and bad teaching. There is no such thing as "doctrines" in the Bible.
And like Jeremiah long ago says, science agrees that such darkness deep within is deceitful as to our true surface intentions; see Jeremiah 17:9. Calling "sin" something else does not change the reality of our dark and dangerous human condition one iota, nor the horrendous greed, hatred, war and other violence, racism, slavery, murder, rape, theft, lies, mass pollution and corruption that human sin causes:
The Dark Core of Human Personality
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180926110841.htm
-
And like Jeremiah long ago says, science agrees that such darkness deep within is deceitful as to our true surface intentions; see Jeremiah 17:9.
Chapter begins: Judah’s sin is engraved with an iron tool...
This is a specific rebuke for the Jews living in Judea at that time. Not a general statement for all of humanity for all time.
What else does that chapter say?
This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors. Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. But if you are careful to obey me, declares the Lord, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, then kings who sit on David’s throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever.
Is that also an eternal truth for all humanity for all time?