BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Just Bible => Topic started by: ProDeo on May 13, 2025, 12:41:53 PM
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Hi Fenris, question / request, it's about Isaiah 53 again :)
I wonder if the english translation of Isaiah 53 (https://rebel7775.wixsite.com/rebel/mrl) of the Hebrew Bible is correct?
And if not, would you be so kind to post the Jewish version?
| Hebrew Bible |
| |
| 1 Who would have believed our report? And to whom |
| hath the arm of the LORD been revealed? |
| |
| 2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as |
| a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor |
| comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor |
| beauty that we should delight in him. |
| |
| 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of |
| pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one |
| from whom men hide their face: he was despised, |
| and we esteemed him not. |
| |
| 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains |
| he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, |
| smitten of God, and afflicted. |
| |
| 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, |
| he was crushed because of our iniquities: the |
| chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with |
| his stripes we were healed. |
| |
| |
| 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one|
| to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him|
| the iniquity of us all. |
| |
| 7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and |
| opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the |
| slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is |
| dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. |
| |
| 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and |
| with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off|
| out of the land of the living, for the transgression |
| of my people to whom the stroke was due. |
| |
| 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with |
| the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, |
| neither was any deceit in his mouth. |
| |
| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his |
| hand: |
| |
| 11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the |
| full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did |
| justify the Righteous One to the many, and their |
| iniquities he did bear. |
| |
| 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the |
| great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; |
| because he bared his soul unto death, and was |
| numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin |
| of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |
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Ooo a question just for me!
Before I get started, if you don't mind, I want to know what the source of this particular translation is.
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So before we get started, I think it's important to talk about context. Christians act as though the 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a freestanding body of work. Isaiah 1-52 and 54-66 don't exist for the purposes of discussing chapter 53. And it is, forgive me, disingenuous. Chapters weren't even invented until the middle ages. If you go to the museum in Jerusalem that houses the Dead Sea Scrolls as I have, you can see a copy of the Isaiah scroll. And the whole book is one long scroll. There's no chapters. Therefore the words of that chapter can't be separated from the surrounding chapters or from the book as a whole.
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So before we get started, I think it's important to talk about context. Christians act as though the 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a freestanding body of work. Isaiah 1-52 and 54-66 don't exist for the purposes of discussing chapter 53. And it is, forgive me, disingenuous. Chapters weren't even invented until the middle ages. If you go to the museum in Jerusalem that houses the Dead Sea Scrolls as I have, you can see a copy of the Isaiah scroll. And the whole book is one long scroll. There's no chapters. Therefore the words of that chapter can't be separated from the surrounding chapters or from the book as a whole.
I know, I know and I know :)
I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm
And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.
| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his |
| hand: |
And I wonder about the Jewish translation.
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OK So now that we have general context, let's be a little more specific. Chapter 53 discusses the "suffering servant of God". Who is this mysterious entity?
Do any other books in the bible discuss God's servant?
Interestingly enough, yes. Jeremiah uses the term. Let's have a look:
Jeremah 30, let's start at verse 4:
These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: “This is what the Lord says:
“‘Cries of fear are heard—
terror, not peace.
Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
“‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
‘I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
no longer will foreigners enslave them.
Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
and David their king,
whom I will raise up for them.
“‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, Israel,’
declares the Lord.
‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.
I am with you and will save you,’
declares the Lord.
‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’
So here we have God, through the prophet Jeremiah, describing the entire nation of Israel using the singular term as God's servant.
We find the same thing In Jeremiah, chapter 46, verses 27 and 28-
“Do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, Israel.
I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.
Do not be afraid, Jacob my servant,
for I am with you,” declares the Lord.
“Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”
So in the book of Jeremiah, God refers to national Israel as God's servant, singular.
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I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm
That's basically just the KJV with an attempt to correct the worst errors in translation.
And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.
Too late! I'm already going! ;D
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| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his |
| hand: |
And I wonder about the Jewish translation.
This is not a bad translation. But I would still add context. God is "crushing" the servant in order to bring the servant to repent i.e. "to see if his soul would offer restitution." Then he would see descendants, have long life, and carry out God's purpose in this world.
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What is the "false Christian teaching" in question? Always curious about such things.
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I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm
That's basically just the KJV with an attempt to correct the worst errors in translation.
And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.
Too late! I'm already going! ;D
I won't bite this time :)
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| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his |
| hand: |
And I wonder about the Jewish translation.
This is not a bad translation. But I would still add context. God is "crushing" the servant in order to bring the servant to repent i.e. "to see if his soul would offer restitution." Then he would see descendants, have long life, and carry out God's purpose in this world.
Okay, thanks.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;
By disease is quite different than the KJV, thus interesting.
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What is the "false Christian teaching" in question? Always curious about such things.
Take a deep breath first...
There is a Christian doctrine originated during the Reformation called PSA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution) (Penal Substitution Atonement)
which declares that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father's plan, was punished (penalized) in the place of (substitution) sinners, thus satisfying the demands of justice and propitiation, so God can justly forgive sins making us at one with God (atonement)
The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty due, according to God the Father's wrath for humanity's sins.
It's all based on Isaiah 53, mainly verse 10 - Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him (on the cross)
The red is the part I take offense as if God the Father poured his wrath (rage, fury) on God the Son during the last 3 hours of Jesus life at the cross. I find it hard to believe there was wrath inside the Godhead.
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If you don’t believe God has wrath toward sin, then please don’t read God’s history during Moses’ leadership period or any of the book of Revelation
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If you don’t believe God has wrath toward sin, then please don’t read God’s history during Moses’ leadership period or any of the book of Revelation
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Wrath against human sin is not the point, PSA (the topic at hand) is about wrath on God the Son on the cross. Do you believe that?
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Yes
I believe scripture teaches penal substitutionary atonement
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The red is the part I take offense as if God the Father poured his wrath (rage, fury) on God the Son during the last 3 hours of Jesus life at the cross. I find it hard to believe there was wrath inside the Godhead.
The verse doesn't say "wrath". Why are people adding words to the bible that aren't there?
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Topical thread for myself. I've been seeing a fair bit of push back from multiple places against PSA. Fairly sure my tradition subscribes to it, but have tried to understand what the arguments against it are.
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Okay, thanks.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;
By disease is quite different than the KJV, thus interesting.
The word is "הֶֽחֱלִ֔י ", the root word is "חָלָה", Strong's 2470. Usually translated as sickness or illness.
By the way, the same root word is in 53:3- mistranslated as "acquainted with grief" but reads in Hebrew as "he knew of illness", and in the following verse "he carried our illness", and in the next verse, "he was ill from our sins" (not "for our sins", which is a further mistranslation).
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The red is the part I take offense as if God the Father poured his wrath (rage, fury) on God the Son during the last 3 hours of Jesus life at the cross. I find it hard to believe there was wrath inside the Godhead.
The verse doesn't say "wrath". Why are people adding words to the bible that aren't there?
Exactly.
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Yes
I believe scripture teaches penal substitutionary atonement
But with wrath?
Imagine, wrath (rage, fury) inside the Godhead, hard to believe.
Was God more or less punishing Himself also?
For what?
For giving his creatures free will while knowing on beforehand that sin sooner or later would rear its ugly head?
It's that why we read -- the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- ?
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Yes
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Yes
If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.
Right?
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I am mildly entertained by the fact that my translation of verse 10 is considered important, maybe even authoritative, but what I have to say about the rest of the chapter is irrelevant.
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Anyway, is the servant identified by name? Yes, many times.
Isaiah 41:8 “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend..."
Isaiah 44:1 "And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me."
Isaiah 45:4 "For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one"
Isaiah 49:3 "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
And Is. 43:10 doesn't name the servant, but look: "You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen..." My witnesses, plural, and my servant, singular, because the singular term "servant" applies to the nation as a whole.
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Yes
If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.
Right?
No.
People are not eternally separated from God to pay for their sins.
People are eternally separated from God because they choose not to be with Him.
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I am mildly entertained by the fact that my translation of verse 10 is considered important, maybe even authoritative, but what I have to say about the rest of the chapter is irrelevant.
:)
Solly for late reply, this whole Christian PSA-WRATH doctrine (based on Isaiah 53) shocked me and still keeps me busy.
I want to ask you if you feel comfortable with the Death Sea scroll of Isaiah 53 translation as found on :
https://www.biblequery.org/Isa53.html
It starts here : Great Isaiah Scroll of Isaiah 53
Maybe you have a link to the contents of Isaiah 53 of your view?
Thanks in advance.
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Yes
If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.
Right?
No.
People are not eternally separated from God to pay for their sins.
People are eternally separated from God because they choose not to be with Him.
True.
But I said - (some sort of) Universalism.
Sorry for not being clear enough.
I believe in PSA, not in PSA-WRATH, God the Father pouring his wrath/rage/fury on God the Son on the cross, as if it was not already bad enough Jesus was made sin who knew no sin -- 2 Cor 5:21 and had to die as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- Rev 13:8
It's a love story, before God the Father and God the Son together created the world -- Col 1:16 the Lamb slain was already decided between Them because by the foreknowledge of God He knew in advance that giving His creatures free will that sooner or later sin would rear its ugly head. And yet He created A&E anyway, knowing in advance they would fall. But...with the Lamb slain in mind, His way to deal with sin once and for all. Can you feel the love?
We also read the cross is about reconciliation -- 2 Cor 5:18-19 for example, where is God's wrath on the cross? Nowhere. More in my next post, another shock, at least for me.
Back to my (some sort of) Universalism remark, if -- after all -- it is true there was wrath/rage/fury inside the Godhead then there is more to it than only a love story -- John 3:16, God the Father was hurting God the Son and hurting Himself. As if God the Father and God the Son took responsibly for the decision to give their creatures free will while knowing in advance that some would sin, like A&E, not all His creatures, most of the holy angels did not participated in the satanic rebellion and kept and are still loyal.
And if it is true that God took responsibly for His decision to give His creatures free will in order that they sincerely and by free will love Him in return then passages like -- John 3:17, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 -- get a deeper meaning, in the sense that He wants it and what He wants He will get it without abusing the free will of His creatures.
Does mercy stop at death?
Are there second chances?
Will there be an age of restoration?
The beauty of (some sort of) Universalism is that God gets what He wants.
Will there be creatures not open for correction? Likely.
It's like -
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Those who don't can't stand the light of the city, preferring to live in sin in outer darkness.
Next, about Isaiah 53 and its different translations, because PSA-WRATH is based on Isaiah 53, the Massoretic text in use today.
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The different translations of Isaiah 53
Somewhere in the Church history the OT text in use (the Septuagint or LXX) was replaced by the Massoretic text, likely around the time of the KJV of 1611.
Massoretic text in use by us | Septuagint |
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he | soul shall see a long-lived seed: |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall | |
prosper in his hand. | |
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see | 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the |
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous | travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form |
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, | him with understanding; to justify the just one |
and he shall bear their iniquities. | who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. |
Note the massive difference in verse 10.
Sources of Isaiah 53
Masoretic Text in use by us, created in 1009 AD
Death Sea scroll - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text we use.
Septuagint - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text AND used by the NT authors whenever they quote the OT and as such they understood Isaiah 53.
Study the 3 versions and tell me which one to believe.
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And another one, Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus dying on the cross, generally seen as a prophecy of David about Jesus.
More translation trouble I am afraid.
Masoretic Text - Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
Septuagint - Psalm 21: - For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
Vulgate - Psalm 21:1 - Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
Psalm 21:2 - O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins
What ?!
Transgressions, sins ? ? ? ? Jesus? Nooooooooooooooooo.
Meaning those translations are not about Jesus but about David after all.
❓❓❓❓
And now I am really confused.
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The different translations of Isaiah 53
Somewhere in the Church history the OT text in use (the Septuagint or LXX) was replaced by the Massoretic text, likely around the time of the KJV of 1611.
Massoretic text in use by us | Septuagint |
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he | soul shall see a long-lived seed: |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall | |
prosper in his hand. | |
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see | 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the |
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous | travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form |
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, | him with understanding; to justify the just one |
and he shall bear their iniquities. | who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. |
Note the massive difference in verse 10.
Sources of Isaiah 53
Masoretic Text in use by us, created in 1009 AD
Death Sea scroll - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text we use.
Septuagint - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text AND used by the NT authors whenever they quote the OT and as such they understood Isaiah 53.
Study the 3 versions and tell me which one to believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And another one, Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus dying on the cross, generally seen as a prophecy of David about Jesus.
More translation trouble I am afraid.
Masoretic Text - Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
Septuagint - Psalm 21: - For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
Vulgate - Psalm 21:1 - Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
Psalm 21:2 - O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins
What ?!
Transgressions, sins ? ? ? ? Jesus? Nooooooooooooooooo.
Meaning those translations are not about Jesus but about David after all.
❓❓❓❓
And now I am really confused.
Where is the dead sea scroll translation? I want to take a look at that.
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Links -
https://www.biblequery.org/Isa53.html -- Death see scroll
https://rebel7775.wixsite.com/rebel/mrl -- Septuagint
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I want to ask you if you feel comfortable with the Death Sea scroll of Isaiah 53 translation as found on :
The fact that even simple Hebrew words are mistranslated is not encouraging.