BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: CadyandZoe on March 13, 2022, 12:25:38 PM
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Hi all,
Today I just published my new video concerning the day of the Lord. Please watch it and let me know what you think.
This video examines Malachi's prediction of the Day of the Lord and what it implies for the Jewish people living in Israel at the time when these predictions come to pass.
If you are wondering, at the very end of the video the man says, “Halleluiah.”
Title: DOL 02 Day of the Lord Malachi 4
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Some folks believe that the Day of the Lord is the day that Jesus returns, but I think that the day of the Lord is a series of events that lead up to the second coming.
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I don't understand the concept of "preparing for the coming of the messiah". Isn't trusting in God enough?
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I don't understand the concept of "preparing for the coming of the messiah". Isn't trusting in God enough?
At times, the Lord tests our faith. He places us in situations that provide the venue and opportunity for us to prove our faith as we place our trust in him.
Sometime in our future, soon I think, the Lord will purge the land of Israel of evil doers. Malachi says, at that time, the evildoer and the arrogant will be burned up like chaff, while the sun rises with healing in it's wings for those who fear the Lord.
Joel says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling the people to Jerusalem for a solemn assembly. Those who make the journey, and come to Jerusalem will survive the fire.
Isaiah calls them "survivors."
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. There will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain. Isaiah 4:2-6
The passage above explains the rationale behind the Joel prophecy. While Joel is writing to his own generation, his intended audience is a future generation who will benefit from his word. He says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling Israel to assemble in Jerusalem. Those who make the trip will survive Yahweh's army of fire. Isaiah says, in that day the branch of the Lord will be beautiful. He is talking about the remnant of Israel who survive the fire. He is talking about those who are "left in Zion and remain in Jerusalem." He says that the Lord will purge with a spirit of burning.
Thus, it would be wise for those living in Israel to study the prophet Joel and when the time comes, make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Those who fear the Lord and call on his name will be saved. They will survive.
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At times, the Lord tests our faith. He places us in situations that provide the venue and opportunity for us to prove our faith as we place our trust in him.
Some of us would call that "everyday life".
Sometime in our future, soon I think, the Lord will purge the land of Israel of evil doers. Malachi says, at that time, the evildoer and the arrogant will be burned up like chaff, while the sun rises with healing in it's wings for those who fear the Lord.
I would think that this is a call to be good every day, since no one knows when the messiah is coming. Or as the Talmud says "repent the day before you die". Of course, since nobody knows when they're going to die, we should repent every single day.
Joel says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling the people to Jerusalem for a solemn assembly. Those who make the journey, and come to Jerusalem will survive the fire.
But Joel 2:18 Then the Lord was jealous for his land and took pity on his people. ... never again will I make you an object of scorn to the nations...Do not be afraid, land of Judah; be glad and rejoice...Be glad, people of Zion, rejoice in the Lord your God...Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.
Which sounds really upbeat.
Isaiah calls them "survivors."
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. There will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain. Isaiah 4:2-6
This doesn't say anything about "preparing".
The passage above explains the rationale behind the Joel prophecy. While Joel is writing to his own generation, his intended audience is a future generation who will benefit from his word. He says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling Israel to assemble in Jerusalem.
Priests don't blow the Shofar anymore. There's no temple.
Matthew 24:36 states that "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Since nobody knows when, how is one to prepare? I ask.
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Some of us would call that "everyday life".
Yeah but this way you can place some special significance on what you're doing.
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At times, the Lord tests our faith. He places us in situations that provide the venue and opportunity for us to prove our faith as we place our trust in him.
Some of us would call that "everyday life".
You would be wrong. God tests our faith. of that there can be no doubt. Consider Abraham, the father of our faith.
Sometime in our future, soon I think, the Lord will purge the land of Israel of evil doers. Malachi says, at that time, the evildoer and the arrogant will be burned up like chaff, while the sun rises with healing in it's wings for those who fear the Lord.
I would think that this is a call to be good every day, since no one knows when the messiah is coming. Or as the Talmud says "repent the day before you die". Of course, since nobody knows when they're going to die, we should repent every single day.[/quote]Of course you are right about repentance. However, this will NOT be a call to repentance. This will be a call to the faithful to come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance. Those who obey the call and come to Jerusalem will be delivered.
Joel says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling the people to Jerusalem for a solemn assembly. Those who make the journey, and come to Jerusalem will survive the fire.
But Joel 2:18 Then the Lord was jealous for his land and took pity on his people. ... never again will I make you an object of scorn to the nations...Do not be afraid, land of Judah; be glad and rejoice...Be glad, people of Zion, rejoice in the Lord your God...Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.
Which sounds really upbeat. [/quote]No doubt. But on whom did God take pity? He did not take pity on the arrogant and evildoers. He destroys them with fire. He takes pity on those who fear the Lord and make the journey to Jerusalem. This should be very familiar to you, since the Mosaic Law commands that three times a year all the males shall come to worship the Lord at a place of his choosing. During the time of Jesus, the location was Jerusalem. It seems to me, that the Lord was making Israel practice the feast of booths because it would be vitally important in the future.
Isaiah calls them "survivors."
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. There will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain. Isaiah 4:2-6
This doesn't say anything about "preparing". [/quote]I was talking about mental preparation.
The passage above explains the rationale behind the Joel prophecy. While Joel is writing to his own generation, his intended audience is a future generation who will benefit from his word. He says that the priests will blow the shofar, calling Israel to assemble in Jerusalem.
Priests don't blow the Shofar anymore. There's no temple. [/quote]They will. But of course, who can hear it all the way from Tel Aviv? Joel's warning is clear. When you see the signs, get out of town. Head to Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:36 states that "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Since nobody knows when, how is one to prepare? I ask.
[/quote]Mentally and spiritually and perhaps physically. If a Jew is living in Israel, he and his family should begin the practice of taking a vacation during the feast of booths. Get used to living in tents. Aside from that, be of the mind that the day of the Lord can come any minute. Don't hesitate when the time comes.
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Yeah but this way you can place some special significance on what you're doing.
That should be our every day. I just came across this fantastic quote.
"I must feel certain that, not only at the moment of my death shall I be able to account for the time I have lived, I ought to be ready at every moment of my life to confront myself and say—this is what I've done."
This was from Yoni Netanyahu, who was the only IDF solider killed at the Entebbe rescue. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe)
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You would be wrong. God tests our faith. of that there can be no doubt.
Yes, God tests our faith. every day. Sometimes in small things and sometimes in large things.
Of course you are right about repentance. However, this will NOT be a call to repentance. This will be a call to the faithful to come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance. Those who obey the call and come to Jerusalem will be delivered.
Isaiah 59: Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save
I can't pray from Tel Aviv? Or New York?
No doubt. But on whom did God take pity? He did not take pity on the arrogant and evildoers. He destroys them with fire. He takes pity on those who fear the Lord and make the journey to Jerusalem.
See above.
This should be very familiar to you, since the Mosaic Law commands that three times a year all the males shall come to worship the Lord at a place of his choosing. During the time of Jesus, the location was Jerusalem.
It was only ever Jerusalem.
I was talking about mental preparation.
Like prayer and repenting?
They will. But of course, who can hear it all the way from Tel Aviv? Joel's warning is clear. When you see the signs, get out of town. Head to Jerusalem.
Third time. See above.
Mentally and spiritually and perhaps physically. If a Jew is living in Israel, he and his family should begin the practice of taking a vacation during the feast of booths. Get used to living in tents.
Actually, observant Jews all over the world build a Sukkah to celebrate the holiday. Myself included.
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Yeah but this way you can place some special significance on what you're doing.
That should be our every day. I just came across this fantastic quote.
"I must feel certain that, not only at the moment of my death shall I be able to account for the time I have lived, I ought to be ready at every moment of my life to confront myself and say—this is what I've done."
This was from Yoni Netanyahu, who was the only IDF solider killed at the Entebbe rescue. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe)
That's true. I got there through Paul and Nazianzus and Kierkegaard and others. Hence I'm not too bothered presently with far-future eschatological questions. The life I live today is burden enough; existence is heavy enough. More people should sit and think and realise the sheer horror of the weight of our existence.
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The life I live today is burden enough; existence is heavy enough. More people should sit and think and realise the sheer horror of the weight of our existence.
I like this.
My wife won't watch horror movies because "reality is scary enough".
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You would be wrong. God tests our faith. of that there can be no doubt.
Yes, God tests our faith. every day. Sometimes in small things and sometimes in large things.
Of course you are right about repentance. However, this will NOT be a call to repentance. This will be a call to the faithful to come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance. Those who obey the call and come to Jerusalem will be delivered.
Isaiah 59: Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save
I can't pray from Tel Aviv? Or New York?
You can pray from anywhere you want. But you don't seem to understand the significance of that unique moment in the future. Israel was certainly able to pray from Egypt. No doubt they did. But at a particular moment in time, Moses led the people out of Egypt. This was no ordinary day. The day Israel left Egypt was a significant milestone in Jewish history. The call to come to Jerusalem is another.
No doubt. But on whom did God take pity? He did not take pity on the arrogant and evildoers. He destroys them with fire. He takes pity on those who fear the Lord and make the journey to Jerusalem.
See above.[/quote]See above.
This should be very familiar to you, since the Mosaic Law commands that three times a year all the males shall come to worship the Lord at a place of his choosing. During the time of Jesus, the location was Jerusalem.
It was only ever Jerusalem.[/quote]Right. I wasn't sure.
I was talking about mental preparation.
Like prayer and repenting?[/quote]More than that. I think we both agree that one can pray from anywhere. One can repent anyplace. But not all of us are mentally prepared to leave home at a moment's notice. Lot's wife wasn't. She hesitated and it cost her.
They will. But of course, who can hear it all the way from Tel Aviv? Joel's warning is clear. When you see the signs, get out of town. Head to Jerusalem.
Third time. See above.[/quote]Back at you.
Mentally and spiritually and perhaps physically. If a Jew is living in Israel, he and his family should begin the practice of taking a vacation during the feast of booths. Get used to living in tents.
Actually, observant Jews all over the world build a Sukkah to celebrate the holiday. Myself included.
[/quote]Okay, but if a Jewish person is living outside of Jerusalem on that day, that person must leave home and call upon the name of the Lord in Jerusalem.
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Yeah but this way you can place some special significance on what you're doing.
That should be our every day. I just came across this fantastic quote.
"I must feel certain that, not only at the moment of my death shall I be able to account for the time I have lived, I ought to be ready at every moment of my life to confront myself and say—this is what I've done."
This was from Yoni Netanyahu, who was the only IDF solider killed at the Entebbe rescue. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe)
That's true. I got there through Paul and Nazianzus and Kierkegaard and others. Hence I'm not too bothered presently with far-future eschatological questions. The life I live today is burden enough; existence is heavy enough. More people should sit and think and realise the sheer horror of the weight of our existence.
Did you study exegesis in college? if so, why not apply your skills with the Bible? Being unshaken by discussions of the end is admirable. And yet, some students of the Bible find critical examinations of apocalyptic scripture fulfilling because of the challenge. Obviously, we can't know, with scientific certainty, what will happen in the future. And not only this, some of us have discovered this profound principle. Prophecy isn't given so that we might know the future. We are given enough information about events in the future so that when they occur we might understand the reason why it had to happen the way it did.
I understand, I think, what you mean by "sheer horror" with regard to our existence. I can only explain it this way. I took my kids to see Grand Coulee Dam. I stood on the road, overlooking the spill way and I felt something in my solar plexus -- a very powerful feeling of awe and fear. I have felt that before and I feel it occasionally since then. I feel it when I attempt to comprehend infinity, especially when I try to wrap my mind around my place among 7 billion human beings. I'm sure you can imagine many other times when the the infinite or the eternal shows itself.
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You can pray from anywhere you want. But you don't seem to understand the significance of that unique moment in the future.
I don't see why it's necessary.
Israel was certainly able to pray from Egypt. No doubt they did. But at a particular moment in time, Moses led the people out of Egypt. This was no ordinary day. The day Israel left Egypt was a significant milestone in Jewish history. The call to come to Jerusalem is another.
Israel wasn't even a nation before they left Egypt. They didn't have the revelation at Sinai. They didn't have the bible. They didn't have their history.
Everything is different now.
More than that. I think we both agree that one can pray from anywhere. One can repent anyplace. But not all of us are mentally prepared to leave home at a moment's notice.
I hear this. But why is it necessary?
Okay, but if a Jewish person is living outside of Jerusalem on that day, that person must leave home and call upon the name of the Lord in Jerusalem.
But why?
The messianic prophecies describe God bringing the Jewish exiles back to the land of Israel at the end of days. They do not describe everyone rushing back on their own devices. For example, Deut 30:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it.
Or Ezekiel 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Or Isaiah 11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Or Isaiah 49
This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their hips."
Why would any of this be necessary if everyone is already in Jerusalem?
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You can pray from anywhere you want. But you don't seem to understand the significance of that unique moment in the future.
I don't see why it's necessary.
How can you not see it is necessary? I don't get that.
Israel was certainly able to pray from Egypt. No doubt they did. But at a particular moment in time, Moses led the people out of Egypt. This was no ordinary day. The day Israel left Egypt was a significant milestone in Jewish history. The call to come to Jerusalem is another.
Israel wasn't even a nation before they left Egypt. They didn't have the revelation at Sinai. They didn't have the bible. They didn't have their history.
Everything is different now. [/quote]And? The point is, not everyday is the same. Some days are more significant than others. How can you not see this?
More than that. I think we both agree that one can pray from anywhere. One can repent anyplace. But not all of us are mentally prepared to leave home at a moment's notice.
I hear this. But why is it necessary?
Okay, but if a Jewish person is living outside of Jerusalem on that day, that person must leave home and call upon the name of the Lord in Jerusalem.
But why?[/quote]Did you watch my video? I told you the reason. If a man should not go to Jerusalem when called, that man will be incinerated.
The messianic prophecies describe God bringing the Jewish exiles back to the land of Israel at the end of days. They do not describe everyone rushing back on their own devices. For example, Deut 30:[/quote]I agree, and the Jewish exiles are making Aliyah as we speak. When the time comes, those who fear the Lord will be called to Jerusalem. Some will come; other's won't. Those who don't will be incinerated.
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it.
Or Ezekiel 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Or Isaiah 11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Or Isaiah 49
This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their hips."
Why would any of this be necessary if everyone is already in Jerusalem?
[/quote]As I say, Jewish exiles are making Aliyah right now.
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They didn't have their history.
This seems dubious. Surely those in Egypt had some inkling of personal and social history? Why is God incinerating people? No, I didn't watch a 23-minute video lacking timestamps (I watched Zelenskiy instead), so feel free to refer me to where you mention this in the video.
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How can you not see it is necessary? I don't get that.
Because God can hear prayer and save people wherever they are.
And? The point is, not everyday is the same. Some days are more significant than others. How can you not see this?
That doesn't explain why someone has to time their travel for a great distance to be in Jerusalem right before the messiah comes. And I'm the "legalistic" Jew while you're the "faith saves" Christian. Yet you're saying a specific act is necessary and I'm saying it's not.
Did you watch my video? I told you the reason. If a man should not go to Jerusalem when called, that man will be incinerated.
Yeah. And I don't find your video convincing. So I keep asking "why?"
I agree, and the Jewish exiles are making Aliyah as we speak. When the time comes, those who fear the Lord will be called to Jerusalem. Some will come; other's won't. Those who don't will be incinerated.
Again.
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it.
Or Ezekiel 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Or Isaiah 11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Or Isaiah 49
This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their hips."
As I say, Jewish exiles are making Aliyah right now.
Those verses say that God is going to bring those exiles back.
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They didn't have their history.
This seems dubious. Surely those in Egypt had some inkling of personal and social history? Why is God incinerating people? No, I didn't watch a 23-minute video lacking timestamps (I watched Zelenskiy instead), so feel free to refer me to where you mention this in the video.
The statement you quoted wasn't mine. I never said, "They don't have their history." My post was messed up. I'm having a hard time with the quote feature.
The Lord says he is going to incinerate people. He doesn't say why, except to say that this event is correlated with "the great and terrible day of the Lord." Other prophets reveal that God intends to purify Israel and specifically Jerusalem.
You don't need to watch my video. Just read the passage.
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Because God can hear prayer and save people wherever they are.
Of course. We agree on that point. In general, it isn't necessary for anyone to visit Jerusalem to pray for salvation, and neither does one need to visit Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of the nation. God can hear and respond to us anywhere and anytime.
Nevertheless, the prophets speak of a day when God himself will rule from Zion. (Christians believe Jesus Christ will fulfill that prophecy.) Before Yahweh begins to rule from Zion, he will cause a series of disasters to befall the land of Israel, increasing in intensity and severity until the coming of the Messiah. The prophets call this the "purging of Israel" removing unrighteousness from the land.
Malachi and Joel give us a limited picture of that time period, and if I understand them correctly, the purge will begin with a locust plague three years running. The entire nation will be under severe pressure because all food will be gone. In the fourth year, a new set of worms will begin to appear, hinting at a fourth locust attack. At that time, the call will go out for the faithful in Israel to come to Jerusalem, i.e. the house of God, to pray for deliverance. Around that same time the Lord will send his army of fire, to burn up everything in its path. Those who make the trip to Jerusalem will survive the fire. Those who don't make the trip will be turned to ash.
Isaiah 4:3 It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.
"Necessity" is understood within that context. Why is it necessary to leave home and visit Jerusalem? Two reasons: 1) demonstrate faith, and 2) avoid being incinerated by fire. God can hear a prayer from a person living in Tel Aviv, but if that person is at home in Tel Aviv when the fire comes, that person will end up dead.
Yet you're saying a specific act is necessary and I'm saying it's not.
In the context of that particular time, it will be important to obey the call.
Those verses say that God is going to bring those exiles back.
What did you imagine that would look like?
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God can hear a prayer from a person living in Tel Aviv, but if that person is at home in Tel Aviv when the fire comes, that person will end up dead.
Why do you limit God like this? God can save anyone, anywhere, from anything, including His own fire.
What did you imagine that would look like?
God describes it
Isaiah 49: This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”
Can plunder be taken from warriors,
or captives be rescued from the fierce?
But this is what the Lord says:
“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
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The Lord says he is going to incinerate people. He doesn't say why, except to say that this event is correlated with "the great and terrible day of the Lord." Other prophets reveal that God intends to purify Israel and specifically Jerusalem.
You don't need to watch my video. Just read the passage.
Wasn't it Putin who recently suggested that any Russian who doesn't return to Russia, from the West, will be regarded as a traitor? I'm wondering if it's okay when God does it, but not okay when Putin does it, because...? Of course, this is a purposely absurd comparison as a means of suggesting that perhaps God isn't going to incinerate Jews for not returning to Jerusalem... You know, assuming they're able or are aware of the call to return, and all that.
If we were in the mid-1940s and aware of the creation of the (then?) modern state of Israel, how long would it have been until God incinerated those Jews who didn't return? How does the historical perspective inform us?
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I understand, I think, what you mean by "sheer horror" with regard to our existence. I can only explain it this way. I took my kids to see Grand Coulee Dam. I stood on the road, overlooking the spill way and I felt something in my solar plexus -- a very powerful feeling of awe and fear. I have felt that before and I feel it occasionally since then. I feel it when I attempt to comprehend infinity, especially when I try to wrap my mind around my place among 7 billion human beings. I'm sure you can imagine many other times when the the infinite or the eternal shows itself.
I get excited about the Grand Coulee Dam because the power it generates makes other states jealous! ;) Actually, I'm very grateful that we have a great river running through our State, good for power, fish, and beauty. It won't change me into an anti-fossil fuel guy, but it certainly makes me pro-environment! :)
As to our existence, I agree with A. to some degree. Life has a certain "dread" about it, even if we know the truth. It seems a lot hangs on the few short years of our lives we have here.
On the other hand, look at it in perspective. When we die, the greatest part of our lives haven't even begun yet. And the suffering ends. Maybe death is not so bad?
But putting people to death *must* have a clear-cut Divine reason, or it can't be God at all. The big deal, which many reject, is the fact of the human Sin Nature. Once we "bite the apple," we can't turn back. And the more we move in a certain direction, the more difficult it becomes to turn back.
Thankfully, one day the battle over our own nature will be over. And I think we should put off being judged to death by God as long as we can so that in God's infinite wisdom we can accomplish what He wants for us to do as individuals.
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Cady, I watched with interest your video. I believe I've also seen one like it before. Anyway, as usual there are points we would agree and points where we would disagree. Regardless, I enjoy the videos, and appreciate the bits that actually help me to understand some things better or refine my view somewhat. That's the value in doing this--you're trying to align us better with God's word.
Of course, some of it obviously is interpretation. I see the "Day of the Lord" as a term that has different meanings in the Bible, depending on context. And it can be worded in different ways.
For the most part, I see it applied historically and eschatologically. You seem to have a sort of historical/eschatological combined approach, seeing the last days as the "Day of the Lord." I'm forgetting what was in the video somewhat because I watched it when you first posted.
I see the Day of the Lord in an eschatological sense as the "last day," which are words Jesus himself used. It is the actual 24 hour day in which he returns.
John 6.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
I also see the Day of the Lord often used in the OT Prophets for a day of Divine Judgment, associated with an event of great consequence in a nation. For example, Israel experienced a "Day of the Lord" when God brought judgment upon the nation for their backsliding and sin.
Luke 17, interestingly, refers to "days" and a "day" of the Lord, which I believe are applied historically. Jesus spoke of his earthly ministry as "days" in which he was with his Disciples. They would miss those days.
But he also spoke of a "day" in which judgment would begin in 70 AD, ultimately ending in the 2nd Coming. In that "day" the Romans would gather as an Army around Jerusalem, and desolate the temple, as well as the people.
That was a "day" of punishment, but there is also an allusion to the "day" of the 2nd Coming. Jesus seemed to be comparing the judgment to be revealed at his 2nd Coming with the judgment about to befall his people in 70 AD.
Jesus seemed to characterize the entire NT age as a time of "Jewish Punishment," as in days like the time before the Flood when mankind were given freedom to indulge their Sin Natures, until Divine patience had run out.
Luke 17.2 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.
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Why do you limit God like this? God can save anyone, anywhere, from anything, including His own fire.
You are focused on hypotheticals. CAN God save anyone? Yes. Does he? NO. Malachi says that the arrogant and evildoers will be ashes under the souls of the feet. I'm not making this up. I'm not speculating.
Malachi 4 does not contradict Isaiah 49.
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Why do you limit God like this? God can save anyone, anywhere, from anything, including His own fire.
You are focused on hypotheticals. CAN God save anyone? Yes. Does he? NO. Malachi says that the arrogant and evildoers will be ashes under the souls of the feet. I'm not making this up. I'm not speculating.
Malachi 4 in entirety
Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
Do I revere God's name? Of course. Do I practice the law of Moses, as given at Horeb? Yes.
I am not seeing the problem.
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Cady, I watched with interest your video. I believe I've also seen one like it before. Anyway, as usual there are points we would agree and points where we would disagree. Regardless, I enjoy the videos, and appreciate the bits that actually help me to understand some things better or refine my view somewhat. That's the value in doing this--you're trying to align us better with God's word.
Thanks. I appreciate your interest and what I am trying to achieve. I meant to respond to this post earlier but I got distracted. Sorry about that.
Of course, some of it obviously is interpretation. I see the "Day of the Lord" as a term that has different meanings in the Bible, depending on context. And it can be worded in different ways.
For the most part, I see it applied historically and eschatologically. You seem to have a sort of historical/eschatological combined approach, seeing the last days as the "Day of the Lord." I'm forgetting what was in the video somewhat because I watched it when you first posted.
I see the Day of the Lord in an eschatological sense as the "last day," which are words Jesus himself used. It is the actual 24 hour day in which he returns.
John 6.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Yes, remember the "plot outline" timeline I presented in the video? I argue that the "Day of Yahweh" is a chain of events (darkness, gloom, etc.) leading up to the second coming of Christ. In John 6, Jesus is speaking of the last day of that chain. The Day that Yahweh asserts himself overtly and with great power comes earlier.
I also see the Day of the Lord often used in the OT Prophets for a day of Divine Judgment, associated with an event of great consequence in a nation. For example, Israel experienced a "Day of the Lord" when God brought judgment upon the nation for their backsliding and sin.
We should discuss this because, so far, I haven't found any references to the "Day of the Lord" that refer to any other time in human history other than the moment in our future when God brings about his kingdom on earth. I could be wrong and I suspect that scholars will disagree with me, but of the few cases that I have explored, the moment of "fulfillment" has no historical evidence to support the contention. But I just haven't the means to explore this further. I don't have access to historical records.
Luke 17, interestingly, refers to "days" and a "day" of the Lord, which I believe are applied historically. Jesus spoke of his earthly ministry as "days" in which he was with his Disciples. They would miss those days.
But he also spoke of a "day" in which judgment would begin in 70 AD, ultimately ending in the 2nd Coming. In that "day" the Romans would gather as an Army around Jerusalem, and desolate the temple, as well as the people.
Yes, but I am focused on the "The day of Yahweh", which refers to the moment in human history and specifically in Jewish history, when it is God's turn to establish his kingdom of righteousness over the world. The phrase "Day of Yahweh" understands the term "day" figuratively the way we would understand the phrase "the dawn of a new day." The world will experience a new beginning, a fresh start, when Yahweh once again rules from Zion over a righteous Jerusalem.
Christians understand that Jesus, God incarnate, will perform the will of his father on earth. At that time, Jesus will rule from Jerusalem and the apostles, ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel, will have hegemony over the entire planet.
Another way to think of "The day of Yahweh" is analogous to the way we say, "order of the day." The Day of Yahweh begins the moment that "the order of the day" is Yahweh's agenda, his values, his goals, his priorities, his will.
In the Malachi Video, I introduce the concept of the "plot outline", which helps us understand that the "Day of Yahweh" begins with the run-up to the coming of the messiah, i.e. the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The chain of events increases in intensity, inevitability, and significance until the "last day" when Jesus returns.
That was a "day" of punishment, but there is also an allusion to the "day" of the 2nd Coming. Jesus seemed to be comparing the judgment to be revealed at his 2nd Coming with the judgment about to befall his people in 70 AD.
Jesus seemed to characterize the entire NT age as a time of "Jewish Punishment," as in days like the time before the Flood when mankind were given freedom to indulge their Sin Natures, until Divine patience had run out.
I agree. Jesus mentions a time of "great tribulation", which begins the moment Daniel's 490 years run out. In my view, the GT started with the stoning of Stephen. Herod increases the intensity of the tribulation and once the Jews go to war with the Romans, the entire city of Jerusalem comes to ruin, and the people are sent into exile; and they remain in exile until God sends for them.
Anyway, thanks for watching the video. Right now, I am working on a companion video concerning the first two chapters of Joel.
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Why do you limit God like this? God can save anyone, anywhere, from anything, including His own fire.
You are focused on hypotheticals. CAN God save anyone? Yes. Does he? NO. Malachi says that the arrogant and evildoers will be ashes under the souls of the feet. I'm not making this up. I'm not speculating.
Malachi 4 in entirety
Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
Do I revere God's name? Of course. Do I practice the law of Moses, as given at Horeb? Yes.
I am not seeing the problem.
I'm not sure there is a "problem" to be solved here. (But I don't know. Maybe. I often times have difficulty with this form of communication, since it is a struggle to remember the course of the discussion.) If I recall, you are wondering why someone living in Israel needs to travel to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord.
And we both agree that in terms of personal devotion to Yahweh, one can worship him anywhere in the world and at any time. One can call upon his name anywhere and at any time. And there is no place that we can go, as David writes, where God can not hear us. We don't need to go anywhere because he is never far from any of us.
That having been said, it is my contention that the prophets speak about a future chain of events leading up to the moment when Yahweh will once again rule over Israel from Zion, and ultimately gain hegemony over the entire world.
One such event involves the purification of the land of Israel, when the Lord will bring upon the land a locust plague which will eat every plant such that both animals and people run out of things to eat. When it appears that the nation is about to be wiped out, the priests will call the people to Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. In the mean time, Yahweh brings fire on the land such that everything is destroyed by fire. Those who come to Jerusalem and remain will survive. Those who don't come will be burned up in the fire. In this particular instance, the saying is literally true, "those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved": i.e. delivered. And as Isaiah says, the survivors who remain in Jerusalem will be called "holy unto the Lord."
Malachi 4 opens with the statement, "surely the day is coming . . ." and so, we are talking about a moment in time, a moment in the future when it can be said, "the day is here."
As you say, the people can call upon the name of the Lord from anywhere. In fact, Jewish people world-wide can pray for the deliverance of Israel, and they probably will. Nonetheless, in this instance, Yahweh wants those living in Israel at the time to make the trip to Jerusalem. He has his reasons. But those who obey will survive. And he will protect them there.
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If I recall, you are wondering why someone living in Israel needs to travel to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord.
Or more generally, why one needs to "prepare" for the coming of the messiah. In my view, the day before the coming of the messiah (or the era for that matter) is no different from any other day. Our mission remains the same. And I don't think it matters whether one ascribes to the OT or the NT.
And we both agree that in terms of personal devotion to Yahweh, one can worship him anywhere in the world and at any time. One can call upon his name anywhere and at any time. And there is no place that we can go, as David writes, where God can not hear us. We don't need to go anywhere because he is never far from any of us.
Agreed!
That having been said, it is my contention that the prophets speak about a future chain of events leading up to the moment when Yahweh will once again rule over Israel from Zion, and ultimately gain hegemony over the entire world.
Again, agree! This is what the prophets speak of.
One such event involves the purification of the land of Israel, when the Lord will bring upon the land a locust plague which will eat every plant such that both animals and people run out of things to eat. When it appears that the nation is about to be wiped out, the priests will call the people to Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. In the mean time, Yahweh brings fire on the land such that everything is destroyed by fire. Those who come to Jerusalem and remain will survive. Those who don't come will be burned up in the fire.
The priests have no sway in Jerusalem any longer. There is no temple.
In this particular instance, the saying is literally true, "those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved": i.e. delivered. And as Isaiah says, the survivors who remain in Jerusalem will be called "holy unto the Lord."
Which chapter are you citing? I need context.
Malachi 4 opens with the statement, "surely the day is coming . . ." and so, we are talking about a moment in time, a moment in the future when it can be said, "the day is here."
I cited Malachi 4. Yes, it speaks of the dawn of the messianic era. But it doesn't say anything about going anywhere. The criteria appears to be " All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” and “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays."
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If I recall, you are wondering why someone living in Israel needs to travel to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord.
Or more generally, why one needs to "prepare" for the coming of the messiah. In my view, the day before the coming of the messiah (or the era for that matter) is no different from any other day. Our mission remains the same. And I don't think it matters whether one ascribes to the OT or the NT.
And we both agree that in terms of personal devotion to Yahweh, one can worship him anywhere in the world and at any time. One can call upon his name anywhere and at any time. And there is no place that we can go, as David writes, where God can not hear us. We don't need to go anywhere because he is never far from any of us.
Agreed!
That having been said, it is my contention that the prophets speak about a future chain of events leading up to the moment when Yahweh will once again rule over Israel from Zion, and ultimately gain hegemony over the entire world.
Again, agree! This is what the prophets speak of.
One such event involves the purification of the land of Israel, when the Lord will bring upon the land a locust plague which will eat every plant such that both animals and people run out of things to eat. When it appears that the nation is about to be wiped out, the priests will call the people to Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. In the mean time, Yahweh brings fire on the land such that everything is destroyed by fire. Those who come to Jerusalem and remain will survive. Those who don't come will be burned up in the fire.
The priests have no sway in Jerusalem any longer. There is no temple.
In this particular instance, the saying is literally true, "those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved": i.e. delivered. And as Isaiah says, the survivors who remain in Jerusalem will be called "holy unto the Lord."
Which chapter are you citing? I need context.
Malachi 4 opens with the statement, "surely the day is coming . . ." and so, we are talking about a moment in time, a moment in the future when it can be said, "the day is here."
I cited Malachi 4. Yes, it speaks of the dawn of the messianic era. But it doesn't say anything about going anywhere. The criteria appears to be " All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” and “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays."
First, you asked for chapter and verse. My statement is a paraphrase of Isaiah 4, where he talks about the survivors, those who enter Jerusalem and stay put.
Second, I agree. Malachi doesn't mention a trip to Jerusalem. I am taking my cues from the prophet Joel, which will be the subject of my next video. In that context, Joel also speaks about fire and burning. He fills in more of the narrative picture, speaking about consecrating a holy assembly. Where is the assembly held?
Joel 2:1 "Blow a trumpet in Zion"
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We should discuss this because, so far, I haven't found any references to the "Day of the Lord" that refer to any other time in human history other than the moment in our future when God brings about his kingdom on earth. I could be wrong and I suspect that scholars will disagree with me, but of the few cases that I have explored, the moment of "fulfillment" has no historical evidence to support the contention. But I just haven't the means to explore this further. I don't have access to historical records.
I'll have to revisit this subject again--it's been awhile. Does "God's Day" have a technical definition referring to the eschaton, or not? Are words like "day of salvation" simply another way of saying, "God's day?" Are they intended to be distinct technical descriptions, or merely synonymous phrases?
We know "day of salvation" is applied by the author of Hebrews not to the eschaton, but to today for example.
Heb 4.7 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
Micah 7.4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day God visits you has come,
the day your watchmen sound the alarm.
Now is the time of your confusion.
Psalm 69.13 But I pray to you, Lord,
in the time of your favor;
in your great love, O God,
answer me with your sure salvation.
Psalm 119.126 It is time for you to act, Lord; your law is being broken.
Isa 7.17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.
Isa 48.16 “Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.” And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.
As you can see, the Lord's Day, the time God acts, and the time the Lord does anything do not appear to have any clear lines. When a term like "the Lord's Day" becomes a technical application to the eschaton, I don't know. I personally approach the context before I try to read what I think is a technical term back into a passage. But I'm open...
Here is an application that appears to stretch out the Lord's Day and Time over an extensive period of time, whether from the time God's promises something to Isaiah to the fulfillment of the prophecy, or from the time Christ made a new covenant with us at the cross until our resurrection from the dead.
This may show that a Day of the Lord may extend as "salvation" from the Cross to the Eschaton, or as "judgment" from judgment of Israel in 70 AD until her final judgment at the end of the age.
Therefore, a "day" can refer either to a single 24 hour day, or to a general period of time, limited by the context of the salvation or the judgment. This may apply throughout the NT age, or to a period of time considered the "endtimes."
Isa 59.21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
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First, you asked for chapter and verse. My statement is a paraphrase of Isaiah 4, where he talks about the survivors, those who enter Jerusalem and stay put.
Ok so instead of paraphrasing, let's quote Isaiah 4.
In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, “We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!”
This part is obviously not interesting to our discussion.
What follows is-
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem. The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit] of judgment and a spirit of fire. Then the Lord will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over everything the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.
Again, I think you're being legalistic here. It also talks about "the survivors in Israel" so does that mean being in the land of Israel is enough? But even that seems to be a stretch because there are a large number of prophecies in which God returns the Jewish exiles to the land. Isaiah 11 for example -
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia,from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
There doesn't seem to be any qualification for being someplace for anything to happen. The opposite. God is saying that no matter how far away the exiles of Israel and Judah are, He will assemble them in the holy land.
The Jews, who by any definition are legalistic, don't perceive any location requirement at the messianic era. So why is a "post biblical law" Christian creating rules that the bible doesn't command?
Second, I agree. Malachi doesn't mention a trip to Jerusalem. I am taking my cues from the prophet Joel, which will be the subject of my next video. In that context, Joel also speaks about fire and burning. He fills in more of the narrative picture, speaking about consecrating a holy assembly. Where is the assembly held?
Joel 2:1 "Blow a trumpet in Zion"
Joel 2 also doesn't mention people having to be anywhere. I only find one thing that God requires-
“Even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.” Rend your heart
and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.
God asks for our return. Not our physical return, though, because He said that He will take care of that. No, He wants our emotional return.
Although I confess that I find it interesting that you think Jews need to be anywhere. My experience here for the most part is that people here either assign Jews no role at the end times, and the occasional oddball who thinks they're going to all be killed by a vengeful Jesus.
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Again, I think you're being legalistic here. It also talks about "the survivors in Israel" so does that mean being in the land of Israel is enough?
I wish I could tell you that living in Israel was enough. I wish that I could tell you that the Jewish people have suffered enough and that the Messiah will come today and protect all those who made Aliyah and all those who are native to that area. I can't tell you that, and it saddens me deeply.
Ezekiel, prophesying about the first exile into Babylon, says that a third of the people will die by the plague, a third of the people will die by the sword, and a third of the people will scatter to the wind and a sword will follow them. (Ezekiel 5) But also, Isaiah prophesies that a tenth of the people will be left and even that tenth will be subject to burning. (Isaiah 6) The only thing remaining of the tree of Israel will be a stump. The Stump of the Tree is holy.
From that stump will grow a branch, indicating that although it appears that the entire tree is dead, it remains alive. The Branch, as Isaiah says, will be beautiful and glorious. In other words, the Jewish people will survive to become a beautiful and glorious people. This small group of survivors will be gathered to Zion, where the Lord will protect them. (Isaiah 4, Revelation 7)
The Jewish people, living in Israel, when the day of Yahweh begins, will hear the call to gather in Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. If they chose to come and call upon his name there, they will survive what is coming. As Isaiah says, the tenth will once again be subject to burning.
But even that seems to be a stretch because there are a large number of prophecies in which God returns the Jewish exiles to the land.
Of course, as I said, people are making Aliyah even today. They are being gathered right now.
There doesn't seem to be any qualification for being someplace for anything to happen. The opposite. God is saying that no matter how far away the exiles of Israel and Judah are, He will assemble them in the holy land.
Don't misunderstand me. God isn't waiting for his people to gather in Jerusalem in order to send the Messiah. The prophets are NOT commanding the people to gather in Jerusalem. Rather, the prophets are predicting the Day of Yahweh, a day of darkness and gloom, a moment in our future when Israel will once again experience an existential threat. The prophets aren't commanding the people to assemble in Jerusalem. They merely observe that ministers will make an appeal to the people to come and that those who make the trip will survive the threat.
The Jews, who by any definition are legalistic, don't perceive any location requirement at the messianic era. So why is a "post biblical law" Christian creating rules that the bible doesn't command?
Well, I must have miscommunicated because I'm not talking about a rule to obey. No one is going to command Israelites to come to Jerusalem. The priests, call them ministers if you like, will make an appeal to the people at large to come to Jerusalem to pray. Gathering in Jerusalem will be voluntary. It just so happens that those who freely volunteer to gather in Jerusalem to pray for Israel will survive the burning.
Joel 2 also doesn't mention people having to be anywhere. I only find one thing that God requires-
“Even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.” Rend your heart
and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.
God asks for our return. Not our physical return, though, because He said that He will take care of that. No, He wants our emotional return.
Joel 2:Blow a trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and the nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom come out of his room
And the bride out of her bridal chamber.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s ministers,
Weep between the porch and the altar,
And let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not make Your inheritance a reproach,
A byword among the nations.
Why should they among the peoples say,
‘Where is their God?’”
Joel tells his people, when the time comes, to "Blow a trumpet in Zion, proclaim a solemn assembly. Gather the people, sanctify the congregation . . ." The Shofar is blown in Zion, in order to proclaim a solemn assembly in Zion. The Shofar calls the people to gather in Zion. Those who respond to the call, will be sanctified, i.e. considered "Holy."
Although I confess that I find it interesting that you think Jews need to be anywhere. My experience here for the most part is that people here either assign Jews no role at the end times, and the occasional oddball who thinks they're going to all be killed by a vengeful Jesus.
I can't speak for the others.
Earlier you said that God would take care of the physical gathering and this is the second time you mentioned it. I am curious what that will look like.
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I wish I could tell you that living in Israel was enough. I wish that I could tell you that the Jewish people have suffered enough and that the Messiah will come today and protect all those who made Aliyah and all those who are native to that area. I can't tell you that, and it saddens me deeply.
I don't need you to tell me these things. I already know them to be true. Your belief in them or lack thereof does not trouble me in the least. As always, I am here for the company and the good discussions.
Ezekiel, prophesying about the first exile into Babylon, says that a third of the people will die by the plague, a third of the people will die by the sword, and a third of the people will scatter to the wind and a sword will follow them. (Ezekiel 5) But also, Isaiah prophesies that a tenth of the people will be left and even that tenth will be subject to burning. (Isaiah 6) The only thing remaining of the tree of Israel will be a stump. The Stump of the Tree is holy.
These events already happened over 2500 years ago. They are not pertinent to out present discussion on "end times".
Of course, as I said, people are making Aliyah even today. They are being gathered right now.
Which we are both in agreement on as being fulfilled prophecy. Excellent!
Don't misunderstand me. God isn't waiting for his people to gather in Jerusalem in order to send the Messiah. The prophets are NOT commanding the people to gather in Jerusalem. Rather, the prophets are predicting the Day of Yahweh, a day of darkness and gloom, a moment in our future when Israel will once again experience an existential threat. The prophets aren't commanding the people to assemble in Jerusalem. They merely observe that ministers will make an appeal to the people to come and that those who make the trip will survive the threat.
I'm not seeing the text as referring to the end timesy stuff.
Well, I must have miscommunicated because I'm not talking about a rule to obey. No one is going to command Israelites to come to Jerusalem. The priests, call them ministers if you like, will make an appeal to the people at large to come to Jerusalem to pray. Gathering in Jerusalem will be voluntary. It just so happens that those who freely volunteer to gather in Jerusalem to pray for Israel will survive the burning.
Right, so if the people don't do such and such something terribly will happen to them. That is a command to obey. Which I find peculiar to hear here, what with the whole Christian concept of salvation via faith, and especially the Protestant concept of salvation only via faith.
Joel 2:Blow a trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and the nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom come out of his room
And the bride out of her bridal chamber.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s ministers,
Weep between the porch and the altar,
And let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not make Your inheritance a reproach,
A byword among the nations.
Why should they among the peoples say,
‘Where is their God?’”
Joel tells his people, when the time comes, to "Blow a trumpet in Zion, proclaim a solemn assembly. Gather the people, sanctify the congregation . . ." The Shofar is blown in Zion, in order to proclaim a solemn assembly in Zion. The Shofar calls the people to gather in Zion. Those who respond to the call, will be sanctified, i.e. considered "Holy."
All of Israel is sanctified. Deut 14:2 (and elsewhere) "for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession."
Earlier you said that God would take care of the physical gathering and this is the second time you mentioned it. I am curious what that will look like.
I have already provided prophecy for what it will look like.
Isaiah 11: In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Deut 30: When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.
Isaiah 49: This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
And interestingly enough, from today's portion from the prophets, Ezekiel 36-
Again the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!
“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’