Day of the Lord - Malachi 4

[Fenris]

First, you asked for chapter and verse. My statement is a paraphrase of Isaiah 4, where he talks about the survivors, those who enter Jerusalem and stay put.

Ok so instead of paraphrasing, let's quote Isaiah 4.


In that day seven women
    will take hold of one man
and say, “We will eat our own food
    and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
    Take away our disgrace!”

This part is obviously not interesting to our discussion.

What follows is-

In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.  Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.  The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit] of judgment and a spirit of fire.  Then the Lord will create over all of Mount Zion and over those who assemble there a cloud of smoke by day and a glow of flaming fire by night; over everything the glory will be a canopy. It will be a shelter and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the storm and rain.

Again, I think you're being legalistic here. It also talks about "the survivors in Israel" so does that mean being in the land of Israel is enough? But even that seems to be a stretch because there are a large number of prophecies in which God returns the Jewish exiles to the land. Isaiah 11 for example -

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia,from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

There doesn't seem to be any qualification for being someplace for anything to happen. The opposite. God is saying that no matter how far away the exiles of Israel and Judah are, He will assemble them in the holy land.

The Jews, who by any definition are legalistic, don't perceive any location requirement at the messianic era. So why is a "post biblical law" Christian creating rules that the bible doesn't command?

Second, I agree. Malachi doesn't mention a trip to Jerusalem. I am taking my cues from the prophet Joel, which will be the subject of my next video. In that context, Joel also speaks about fire and burning. He fills in more of the narrative picture, speaking about consecrating a holy assembly. Where is the assembly held?

Joel 2:1 "Blow a trumpet in Zion"

Joel 2 also doesn't mention people having to be anywhere. I only find one thing that God requires-

“Even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.” Rend your heart
    and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

God asks for our return. Not our physical return, though, because He said that He will take care of that. No, He wants our emotional return.

Although I confess that I find it interesting that you think Jews need to be anywhere. My experience here for the most part is that people here either assign Jews no role at the end times, and the occasional oddball who thinks they're going to all be killed by a vengeful Jesus.

[CadyandZoe]

Again, I think you're being legalistic here. It also talks about "the survivors in Israel" so does that mean being in the land of Israel is enough?

I wish I could tell you that living in Israel was enough. I wish that I could tell you that the Jewish people have suffered enough and that the Messiah will come today and protect all those who made Aliyah and all those who are native to that area. I can't tell you that, and it saddens me deeply.

Ezekiel, prophesying about the first exile into Babylon, says that a third of the people will die by the plague, a third of the people will die by the sword, and a third of the people will scatter to the wind and a sword will follow them. (Ezekiel 5) But also, Isaiah prophesies that a tenth of the people will be left and even that tenth will be subject to burning. (Isaiah 6) The only thing remaining of the tree of Israel will be a stump. The Stump of the Tree is holy.

From that stump will grow a branch, indicating that although it appears that the entire tree is dead, it remains alive. The Branch, as Isaiah says, will be beautiful and glorious. In other words, the Jewish people will survive to become a beautiful and glorious people. This small group of survivors will be gathered to Zion, where the Lord will protect them. (Isaiah 4, Revelation 7)

The Jewish people, living in Israel, when the day of Yahweh begins, will hear the call to gather in Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. If they chose to come and call upon his name there, they will survive what is coming. As Isaiah says, the tenth will once again be subject to burning.

But even that seems to be a stretch because there are a large number of prophecies in which God returns the Jewish exiles to the land.

Of course, as I said, people are making Aliyah even today. They are being gathered right now. 

There doesn't seem to be any qualification for being someplace for anything to happen. The opposite. God is saying that no matter how far away the exiles of Israel and Judah are, He will assemble them in the holy land.

Don't misunderstand me. God isn't waiting for his people to gather in Jerusalem in order to send the Messiah. The prophets are NOT commanding the people to gather in Jerusalem. Rather, the prophets are predicting the Day of Yahweh, a day of darkness and gloom, a moment in our future when Israel will once again experience an existential threat. The prophets aren't commanding the  people to assemble in Jerusalem. They merely observe that ministers will make an appeal to the people to come and that those who make the trip will survive the threat.

The Jews, who by any definition are legalistic, don't perceive any location requirement at the messianic era. So why is a "post biblical law" Christian creating rules that the bible doesn't command?

Well, I must have miscommunicated because I'm not talking about a rule to obey. No one is going to command Israelites to come to Jerusalem. The priests, call them ministers if you like, will make an appeal to the people at large to come to Jerusalem to pray. Gathering in Jerusalem will be voluntary. It just so happens that those who freely volunteer to gather in Jerusalem to pray for Israel will survive the burning.

Joel 2 also doesn't mention people having to be anywhere. I only find one thing that God requires-

“Even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.” Rend your heart
    and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.

God asks for our return. Not our physical return, though, because He said that He will take care of that. No, He wants our emotional return.

Joel 2:Blow a trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and the nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom come out of his room
And the bride out of her bridal chamber.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s ministers,
Weep between the porch and the altar,
And let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not make Your inheritance a reproach,
A byword among the nations.
Why should they among the peoples say,
‘Where is their God?’”


Joel tells his people, when the time comes, to "Blow a trumpet in Zion, proclaim a solemn assembly. Gather the people, sanctify the congregation . . ."   The Shofar is blown in Zion, in order to proclaim a solemn assembly in Zion. The Shofar calls the people to gather in Zion. Those who respond to the call, will be sanctified, i.e. considered "Holy."

Although I confess that I find it interesting that you think Jews need to be anywhere. My experience here for the most part is that people here either assign Jews no role at the end times, and the occasional oddball who thinks they're going to all be killed by a vengeful Jesus.

I can't speak for the others.

Earlier you said that God would take care of the physical gathering and this is the second time you mentioned it. I am curious what that will look like.

[Fenris]

I wish I could tell you that living in Israel was enough. I wish that I could tell you that the Jewish people have suffered enough and that the Messiah will come today and protect all those who made Aliyah and all those who are native to that area. I can't tell you that, and it saddens me deeply.

I don't need you to tell me these things. I already know them to be true. Your belief in them or lack thereof does not trouble me in the least. As always, I am here for the company and the good discussions.

Ezekiel, prophesying about the first exile into Babylon, says that a third of the people will die by the plague, a third of the people will die by the sword, and a third of the people will scatter to the wind and a sword will follow them. (Ezekiel 5) But also, Isaiah prophesies that a tenth of the people will be left and even that tenth will be subject to burning. (Isaiah 6) The only thing remaining of the tree of Israel will be a stump. The Stump of the Tree is holy.

These events already happened over 2500 years ago. They are not pertinent to out present discussion on "end times".

Of course, as I said, people are making Aliyah even today. They are being gathered right now. 

Which we are both in agreement on as being fulfilled prophecy. Excellent!

Don't misunderstand me. God isn't waiting for his people to gather in Jerusalem in order to send the Messiah. The prophets are NOT commanding the people to gather in Jerusalem. Rather, the prophets are predicting the Day of Yahweh, a day of darkness and gloom, a moment in our future when Israel will once again experience an existential threat. The prophets aren't commanding the  people to assemble in Jerusalem. They merely observe that ministers will make an appeal to the people to come and that those who make the trip will survive the threat.

I'm not seeing the text as referring to the end timesy stuff.

Well, I must have miscommunicated because I'm not talking about a rule to obey. No one is going to command Israelites to come to Jerusalem. The priests, call them ministers if you like, will make an appeal to the people at large to come to Jerusalem to pray. Gathering in Jerusalem will be voluntary. It just so happens that those who freely volunteer to gather in Jerusalem to pray for Israel will survive the burning.

Right, so if the people don't do such and such something terribly will happen to them. That is a command to obey. Which I find peculiar to hear here, what with the whole Christian concept of salvation via faith, and especially the Protestant concept of salvation only via faith.

Joel 2:Blow a trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and the nursing infants.
Let the bridegroom come out of his room
And the bride out of her bridal chamber.
17 Let the priests, the Lord’s ministers,
Weep between the porch and the altar,
And let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not make Your inheritance a reproach,
A byword among the nations.
Why should they among the peoples say,
‘Where is their God?’”


Joel tells his people, when the time comes, to "Blow a trumpet in Zion, proclaim a solemn assembly. Gather the people, sanctify the congregation . . ."   The Shofar is blown in Zion, in order to proclaim a solemn assembly in Zion. The Shofar calls the people to gather in Zion. Those who respond to the call, will be sanctified, i.e. considered "Holy."

All of Israel is sanctified. Deut 14:2 (and elsewhere) "for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Earlier you said that God would take care of the physical gathering and this is the second time you mentioned it. I am curious what that will look like.

I have already provided prophecy for what it will look like.

Isaiah 11:  In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.  He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; He will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

Deut 30: When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,  and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,  then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.  Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Isaiah 49: This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“See, I will beckon to the nations,
    I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
    and carry your daughters on their hips.
 Kings will be your foster fathers,
    and their queens your nursing mothers.

And interestingly enough, from today's portion from the prophets, Ezekiel 36-

Again the word of the Lord came to me:  “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight.  So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.  I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions.  And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’  I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.  I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.  I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.  Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.  I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.  I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.  Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices.  I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.  The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it.  They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.”  Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’