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Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: ross3421 on January 15, 2022, 11:43:11 AM
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This always confused however when understanding the city is destroyed prior to the 2nd coming it becomes clear.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
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The passage makes so much more sense to me personally if we see the "people of the prince to come" as the Roman Army. This is the passage Jesus referred to, I believe, in his Olivet Discourse. He said that the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman Army, would surround Jerusalem, ultimately defeating it and destroying it and the temple. It all took place in 70 AD, leading to a Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, an age-long Punishment designed to keep them in tow until their national restoration at the end of the age.
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This translation is so problematic.
the Messiah the Prince
Hebrew says "an anointed prince".
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself
Hebrew says, "an anointed shall be cut off, and have nothing". (Alternatively, "and be no more". )
and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
Funny, my text doesn't have the word "David" in any language. Why did you add that? Seems quite obviously referring to the Romans, why would David (long dead, by the by) come and destroy Jerusalem?
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and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
Funny, my text doesn't have the word "David" in any language. Why did you add that? Seems quite obviously referring to the Romans, why would David (long dead, by the by) come and destroy Jerusalem?
i will agree...the prince could be the same the people of the prince to come being Messiah the Prince, the people his army. Note the army involved with the city prior.
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Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?
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Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?
can not a city be destroyed in the future?
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants
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Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?
can not a city be destroyed in the future?
The whole context of those passages are of the second temple era. Why have it refer to something else when we already have an historical event to tie it to?
the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants
I don't think these verses mention the messiah at all. It simply says "an anointed" which means a king, and not even necessarily a Jewish one. But supposing that you are correct, why is the messiah destroying Jerusalem?
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Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?
the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants
If Fenris is right, that the "prince is Vespasion," and I believe the prince was either Vespasion or Titus, then what you show is irrelevant. The people of the prince to come indicates an Army because it is said to destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Roman Army accomplished that in 70 AD.
So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.
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So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.
well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.
you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture.
1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with er, they are become her enemies.
3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
4 The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.
5 Her adversaries are the chief, her enemies prosper; for the Lord hath afflicted her for the multitude of her transgressions: her children are gone into captivity before the enemy.
6 And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.
7 Jerusalem remembered in the days of her affliction and of her miseries all her pleasant things that she had in the days of old, when her people fell into the hand of the enemy, and none did help her: the adversaries saw her, and did mock at her sabbaths.
8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.
9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O Lord, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.
10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.
12 Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the Lord hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
13 From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day.
14 The yoke of my transgressions is bound by his hand: they are wreathed, and come up upon my neck: he hath made my strength to fall, the Lord hath delivered me into their hands, from whom I am not able to rise up.
15 The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.
16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are esolate, because the enemy prevailed.
17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.
18 The Lord is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandment: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow: my virgins and my young men are gone into captivity.
19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.
20 Behold, O Lord; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
21 They have heard that I sigh: there is none to comfort me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done it: thou wilt bring the day that thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me.
22 Let all their wickedness come before thee; and do unto them, as thou hast done unto me for all my transgressions: for my sighs are many, and my heart is faint.
the other thing is you think this is a time of the cross no it deals with the second coming at a time when jerusalem commits whoredom
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well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.
you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture.
This is from the book of Lamentations, which was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. It's not a prophecy, it is a past event.
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So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.
well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.
you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture...
the other thing is you think this is a time of the cross no it deals with the second coming at a time when jerusalem commits whoredom
Yes, I do *not* see Dan 9 and the prince's people coming to destroy Jerusalem as anything but the coming of a Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. I do *not* see Babylon as Jerusalem. I see "Harlot Babylon" in Rev 17 as the city of Rome.
These are two different prophecies with two different applications. One has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. The other prophecy refers to the history of Rome from the time of Jesus to the end of the age, and was given, I think, *after* the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
Because for this person, the love of Israel is confused for a kind of sick fetishism.
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This is from the book of Lamentations, which was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. It's not a prophecy, it is a past event.
[/quote]
it relate to jerusalem for all time including the future
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
because jerusalem again plays the harlot. she commits fornication. jerusalem is called a whore
I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?
But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
babylon is jerusalem
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
lam 1
1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
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Because for this person, the love of Israel is confused for a kind of sick fetishism.
That's definitely one way to put it.
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it relate to jerusalem for all time including the future
It's a past event. Why would it relate to the future, other than because you want it to? I mean, using this method anything in the bible may be applied to a future event. Or a past one, for that matter. "Time has no meaning". I'm reminded of this-
(https://calvinandhobbesagain.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/19860608.gif?w=499&zoom=2)
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
because jerusalem again plays the harlot. she commits fornication. jerusalem is called a whore
I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?
But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
This is from Jeremiah 13. Again, this is a past event. It was a message for that generation, warning of punishment and exile (which did in fact take place). It's not for Jerusalem in the distant future.
If you can apply a verse to any timeframe, why not Jeremiah 2?
This is what the Lord says:
“‘I remember the devotion of your youth,
how as a bride you loved me
and followed me through the wilderness,
through a land not sown.
Israel was holy to the Lord,
the firstfruits of his harvest;
all who devoured her were held guilty,
and disaster overtook them,’”
declares the Lord.
Why doesn't this apply today, also? I mean, aside from you not wanting it to?
because jerusalem again plays the harlot
How about other non-Christian cities? Are they also a harlot, or does that only apply to Jews? Mecca, Tibet, Varanasi, and on and on. Why this obsession with Jews?
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Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?
Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
babylon is jerusalem
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
LOL, "babylon is jerusalem". Words don't mean anything anymore, a prophecy about a clearly delineated city might actually mean another city just because you say so.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256-nqlyaa.jpg)
lam 1
1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
And here we go again. This is from Lamentations, which is a past event.
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Some prophecies that mention Jerusalem by name.
Is 40 Comfort, oh comfort My people, says your God. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and declare to her that her term of service is over, that her iniquity is expiated
Is 51 The Lord will surely comfort Zion (another name for Jerusalem) and will look with compassion on all her ruins
and
Awake, awake! Rise up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath...snip... Therefore hear this, you afflicted one, made drunk, but not with wine. This is what your Sovereign Lord says, your God, who defends his people: "See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again. I will put it into the hands of your tormentors...
IS 52 Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem. Free yourself from the chains on your neck, Daughter Zion, now a captive.
and
Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem.
Is 61 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and the joy of all generations.
IS 62 (the whole chapter!)
For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet,
till her vindication shines out like the dawn,
her salvation like a blazing torch.
The nations will see your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
you will be called by a new name
that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.
You will be a crown of splendor in the Lord’s hand,
a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
No longer will they call you Deserted,
or name your land Desolate.
But you will be called Hephzibah,
and your land Beulah;
for the Lord will take delight in you,
and your land will be married.
As a young man marries a young woman,
so will your Builder marry you;
as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride,
so will your God rejoice over you.
I have posted watchmen on your walls, Jerusalem;
they will never be silent day or night.
You who call on the Lord,
give yourselves no rest,
and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem
and makes her the praise of the earth.
The Lord has sworn by his right hand
and by his mighty arm:
“Never again will I give your grain
as food for your enemies,
and never again will foreigners drink the new wine
for which you have toiled;
but those who harvest it will eat it
and praise the Lord,
and those who gather the grapes will drink it
in the courts of my sanctuary.”
Pass through, pass through the gates!
Prepare the way for the people.
Build up, build up the highway!
Remove the stones.
Raise a banner for the nations.
The Lord has made proclamation
to the ends of the earth:
“Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your Savior comes!
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.’”
They will be called the Holy People,
the Redeemed of the Lord;
and you will be called Sought After,
the City No Longer Deserted.
I'm curious why these explicit prophecies on the eventual fate of Jerusalem isn't on your radar, ross 3421.
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This always confused however when understanding the city is destroyed prior to the 2nd coming it becomes clear.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I was reading some posts on this thread and it seems that the more the prophecy in Daniel 9:v.25-26 is commented on, the more confusing it becomes, which makes it very difficult to have a real interpretation and conclusion of what God intended to reveal to his people through this prophecy.
I won't say I'm the only one who correctly interprets this prophecy, but one thing I do, I try to interpret God's Word by God's Word. The Word is God.
Daniel 9:v.25 - Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
My first point of view starts with the verse 25 above quoted, and I analyze it by parts:
First point:
The first point of the verse is: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem...
What does the Word of GOD tell us on who gave the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem, and when?
The answer is in Ezra 6:v.3 KJV: 3 - In the FIRST year of Cyrus the king (it was in 559 B.C) the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;
Second point:
The second point is the rebuild lasted 21 years. According the Word of GOD when was the rebuild ended? The answer is in Ezra 6:v.15KJV:
The rebuild lasted 21 years. According the Word of GOD when was the rebuild ended? The answer is in Ezra 6:v.15KJV:
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king. Part was built in the time of Cyrus, and part in the time of Darius.
Third point:
The third point is when was the sixth year of Darius's reign?
Darius reigned from year 522-486 B.C, so the First year of Darius was 522 B.C., and his sixth year - 516 B.C. Temple reconstruction ended in 516 B.C. - Ezra 6:v.15KJV.
NOTE: The captivity of Israel lasted 70 years.
In the year 587 B.C. - Judah is conquered by Babylon -Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled. Later, Babylon was conquered by Cyrus-550-539 B.C., and Cambises 530-522 B.C. , and Darius-522-486 B.C. Captivity of Israel-70 years--> 587-517B.C.
END of the rebuilding of the Temple was in 516 B.C. according to Scripture quoted above.- Ezra 6:v.15
DETAIL: The end of the captivity of Judah coincides with the end of the rebuilding of the Temple.
Fourth point: - from commandment to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
The fourth point is: Know and understand that from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [of years] , and threescore and two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; these will be troubled times. By the way, the kingdom of Medo-Persian would be conquered by Greek, and this would be conquered by Roman Empire.
Since the order for the rebuilding of the Temple there has been a struggle against Satan and his hosts that always tried to prevent the progress and development of the rebuilding of the Temple and Jerusalem. But the Temple was finished and the Captivity too. The time to the coming of the Messiah started: It was the year 516 B.C.
[b]Fifth point:[/b]
Seventy weeks were determined to the coming of the Messiah
Daaniel 9:v.24 - Seventy weeks were determined upon Daniel's people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The seventy weeks were determined in three parts: seven weeks[of years] , and threescore and two weeks [of years], plus one week [of years].
7 weeks = 49 years ......... ---> 516 B.C. - 49 = 467 B.C.
62 weeks = 434 years ..... ---> 467 B.C.-434= 33 B.C.
There is a gap of 30 years from year 33 B.C. to the birth of JESUS-->33 BC-30= -3 B.C. - a recognized date for the birth of JESUS.
Based in the description above, the Messiah was was cut off (crucified) around year 30AD.
We are in the year 2022 AD, the week 70th of Daniel 9:v.27 that will be RULED BY THE EVIL PRINCE - EZEKIEL 21:v. 25 and 2 Thessalonians 2- it does not fulfilled yet, i.e. until now, until the current time, but it will in NEAR FUTURE, much probably in this current decade - 2020-2030.
Get ready.
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If others interpret the 70 Weeks prophecy different than you do, then the confusion is with you, and not with those who have a different view than you. One cannot hold to 2 different views at the same time--this would indeed be confusing.
Some say Cyrus' decree is the decree mentioned in the prophecy. But his decree determined both the building of the temple and the building of the city. Right after Cyrus' decree the temple was built, but not the city.
Several kings after Cyrus continued to fulfill the decree of Cyrus to rebuild both the temple and the city. The only king who fulfilled the building of the city was Artaxerxes, who determined to complete the temple project by reforming its practice.
And then some 20 years into his reign the rebuilding of the city actually began in earnest. The decree was actually given in the 7th year of his reign, in 457 BC.
Although I do think it's insightful to suggest the 70 year Captivity began in 587 BC and ended with the completion of the temple in 517 BC, I think this is separate from the 70 Weeks prophecy. The 70 Weeks began, I believe, with the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC, and ends with the 70th Week prophecy, which encompasses the earthly ministry of Christ.
The 70th Week is, I believe, only a half-Week, but remains the "70th Week." Offerings are cut off in the "midst" of the Week, which indicates to me that Christ terminated any need for animal sacrifice with his death in the midst of this 70th Week.
But the focus of the prophecy is on the termination of the 70 Weeks with the death of Christ, with the end of the Law, and with the fall of Jerusalem taking place afterwards. The fact that Christ's death somehow relates to this termination of the Law is not spelled out, but remains for us to understand by NT revelation, I think.
In sum, the prophecy is a warning that despite the rebuilding of the temple and Jerusalem by decree of Artaxerxes, both city and temple would later fail once again, along with the loss of Messiah. This is not incomprehensible as a view, whether it is right or wrong.
And this position is also dignified by having been held to by some of the Church Fathers--perhaps the majority of them? I do not believe the Holy Spirit would fail to give the proper interpretation to all Christians in history until you and I figure it out logically? ;)
I'm not trying to jam this down your throat--just defend against the idea that other positions are "incomprehensible." I trust you understand that other positions are perfectly reasonable by their own standards?
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Daniel 9:.26-27-CJB- WHAT PREVAILS IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Word is GOD.
V.26 - Then, AFTER (yeah AFTER) after the sixty-two weeks, MASHIACH will be cut off and have nothing.The people of A PRINCE (YEAH A PRINCE) yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (This has nothing to do with the destruction of Israel in the year 70AD, AS FOLLOWS WITH SOME QUESTIONS:
V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE, yeah, BY SEVEN YEARS. And he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
What kind of STRONG COVENANT the satanic PRINCE will make with leaders? Who are THESE LEADERS? By the way, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 will be DIVIDED IN TWO PERIODS of 3,5 years BY THE EVIL PRINCE.
In this POINT, that is, AFTER the END of the week 62, the prophecy is still to the beginning of the week 70th, and A PRINCE WILL START TO WORK in his STRONG COVENANT with leaders;
Therefore, in this point the FIRST HALF of the week 70th isn't started yet, it is I would say IN STAND BY until this current time, and the STRONG COVENANT of the satanic PRINCE with the LEADERS will take place or will be applied for ONE WEEK OF YEARS, I believe it will occur in this current decade -2020 to 2030, there is a period of time AND TWO EVENTS called as FIRST AND SECOND HALFS of the last week - the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27- that WILL be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE. But WHAT WILL HAPPEN in the FIRST HALF of the week 70th? In the FIRST HALF OF THE LAST WEEK will fulfill LITERALLY Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5, among others, under the RULE of the evil PRINCE.
... He -the EVIL PRINCE- shall confirm the COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he-THE EVIL PRINCE-shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Scripture does not say JESUS was crucified IN 29 AD, many people are saying that, not Scripture. What Scripture says is that AFTER, yeah, AFTER the week 62 plus 7 the Messiah is"cut off" - crucified .
JESUS was not crucified neither in the week 69, because the week 69 ended BEFORE JESUS BIRTH, so JESUS was not crucified in the week 69th but AFTER the END of week 69, but also was not crucified in the midst of the week 70th, this week 70th is/will be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE by the entire, by seven years. The evil Prince was not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely. THE evil Prince will manifest himself in this CURRENT decade, that is between 2020 to 2030, and the period of 7 years is within this current decade.
Be careful and get ready, for the CHASTISEMENTS against the world of Devil is already running, and the PUNISHMENTS already started and will NEVER END, IT IS FOR EVER AND EVER. YES, FOR EVER AND EVER
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Daniel 9:.26-27-CJB- WHAT PREVAILS IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Word is GOD.
V.26 - Then, AFTER (yeah AFTER) after the sixty-two weeks, MASHIACH will be cut off and have nothing.The people of A PRINCE (YEAH A PRINCE) yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (This has nothing to do with the destruction of Israel in the year 70AD, AS FOLLOWS WITH SOME QUESTIONS:
Now this is "incomprehensible" to me! There is nothing more logical that considering the possibility that the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" could have something to do with the events of 70 AD, at which time the city and the sanctuary were in fact destroyed! Even if this position is wrong, how can you say that such a consideration is unreasonable? I actually think there is no other liklihood.
V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE, yeah, BY SEVEN YEARS. And he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
What kind of STRONG COVENANT the satanic PRINCE will make with leaders? Who are THESE LEADERS? By the way, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 will be DIVIDED IN TWO PERIODS of 3,5 years BY THE EVIL PRINCE.
In this POINT, that is, AFTER the END of the week 62, the prophecy is still to the beginning of the week 70th, and A PRINCE WILL START TO WORK in his STRONG COVENANT with leaders;
Therefore, in this point the FIRST HALF of the week 70th isn't started yet, it is I would say IN STAND BY until this current time, and the STRONG COVENANT of the satanic PRINCE with the LEADERS will take place or will be applied for ONE WEEK OF YEARS, I believe it will occur in this current decade -2020 to 2030, there is a period of time AND TWO EVENTS called as FIRST AND SECOND HALFS of the last week - the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27- that WILL be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE. But WHAT WILL HAPPEN in the FIRST HALF of the week 70th? In the FIRST HALF OF THE LAST WEEK will fulfill LITERALLY Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5, among others, under the RULE of the evil PRINCE.
The assumption you're making, which clearly is far beyond the actual time period mentioned, is that this is something yet to take place in the future. But 70 Weeks of years, whether from Cyrus or from Artaxerxes, lands us far back in the distant past, and can have nothing to do with a future fulfillment. That is why I personally abandoned this "Gap Theory," separating the 70th Week from the previous 69 Weeks.
The Prince who makes a covenant more likely relates back to the "People of the Prince to Come," speaking of the Roman leader who commands the Army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. His covenant may be not so much an actual treaty, but rather, a confirmation of God's covenant to provide sacrificial atonement for the Jewish People.
... He -the EVIL PRINCE- shall confirm the COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he-THE EVIL PRINCE-shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The Roman Prince confirmed Christ's covenant of atonement for sin by having him "cut off," and ultimately bring the OT system of atonement to an end.
Scripture does not say JESUS was crucified IN 29 AD, many people are saying that, not Scripture. What Scripture says is that AFTER, yeah, AFTER the week 62 plus 7 the Messiah is"cut off" - crucified .
Yes, the passage indicates that Christ is cut off after the 69 Weeks, which places him squarely in the 70th Week. 486.5 years after the decree of Artaxerxes, Jesus was cut off to fulfill God's covenant of atonement. And it was brought about by the Roman Prince, who had him destroyed (Pilate) and who had the city and the sanctuary desolated (Titus). Both Pilate and Titus were Roman "princes," as such, representing Roman imperial authority.
JESUS was not crucified neither in the week 69, because the week 69 ended BEFORE JESUS BIRTH, so JESUS was not crucified in the week 69th but AFTER the END of week 69, but also was not crucified in the midst of the week 70th, this week 70th is/will be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE by the entire, by seven years. The evil Prince was not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely. THE evil Prince will manifest himself in this CURRENT decade, that is between 2020 to 2030, and the period of 7 years is within this current decade.
You are here asserting what you have yet to prove, that Jesus was *not* cut off in the midst of the 70th Week and that the Prince must rule for an entire Week. None of your assertions are explicitly stated. And in fact, these items are the things that are explicitly stated as such, that Messiah is cut off after the 69 Weeks, and that atonement under the Law is ended in the midst of the 70th Week.
It seems obvious to me, looking back, that Christ is a logical candidate for the one who dies in the midst of the Week to end temporary offerings. And in fact, the Church Fathers largely took this position for just this reason, that it is a logical assumption to make.
Again, I'm not insisting that anybody accept my own position. I'm just arguing against the idea that this interpretation, based on what the Church Fathers believed, is in any way illogical or inconsistent. On the contrary, it seems like a very logical consideration. Why not then treat it as such...unless, of course, it threatens somebody else's interpretation?
I find that futurists largely prefer to make everything in Dan 9, the Olivet Discourse, and the Revelation about the endtimes. I also am a futurist. But I'm not riding the bandwagon of those who refuse to distinguish between fulfilled prophecy and future prophecy.
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Daniel 9:.26-27-CJB- WHAT PREVAILS IS THE WORD OF GOD. The Word is GOD.
V.26 - Then, AFTER (yeah AFTER) after the sixty-two weeks, MASHIACH will be cut off and have nothing.The people of A PRINCE (YEAH A PRINCE) yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. (This has nothing to do with the destruction of Israel in the year 70AD, AS FOLLOWS WITH SOME QUESTIONS:
Now this is "incomprehensible" to me! There is nothing more logical that considering the possibility that the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" could have something to do with the events of 70 AD, at which time the city and the sanctuary were in fact destroyed! Even if this position is wrong, how can you say that such a consideration is unreasonable? I actually think there is no other liklihood.
Your interpretation does not fit the period of a week of years (seven years) according Daniel 9:v.27, divided into two periods of 3.5 years, the first ruled by the Beast of sea for 42 months -Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5 - and the second period ruled by the WICKED Prince-Ezekiel 21:v.25 and 2 Thes. 2 and Revelation 13:v.11 to 18.
V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE, yeah, BY SEVEN YEARS. And he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
What kind of STRONG COVENANT the satanic PRINCE will make with leaders? Who are THESE LEADERS? By the way, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27 will be DIVIDED IN TWO PERIODS of 3,5 years BY THE EVIL PRINCE.
In this POINT, that is, AFTER the END of the week 62, the prophecy is still to the beginning of the week 70th, and A PRINCE WILL START TO WORK in his STRONG COVENANT with leaders;
Therefore, in this point the FIRST HALF of the week 70th isn't started yet, it is I would say IN STAND BY until this current time, and the STRONG COVENANT of the satanic PRINCE with the LEADERS will take place or will be applied for ONE WEEK OF YEARS, I believe it will occur in this current decade -2020 to 2030, there is a period of time AND TWO EVENTS called as FIRST AND SECOND HALFS of the last week - the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27- that WILL be RULED by the EVIL PRINCE. But WHAT WILL HAPPEN in the FIRST HALF of the week 70th? In the FIRST HALF OF THE LAST WEEK will fulfill LITERALLY Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5, among others, under the RULE of the evil PRINCE.
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There is nothing more logical that considering the possibility that the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" could have something to do with the events of 70 AD, at which time the city and the sanctuary were in fact destroyed!
Your interpretation does not fit the period of a week of years (seven years) according Daniel 9:v.27, divided into two periods of 3.5 years, the first ruled by the Beast of sea for 42 months -Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5 - and the second period ruled by the WICKED Prince-Ezekiel 21:v.25 and 2 Thes. 2 and Revelation 13:v.11 to 18.
There is no place in the Scriptures where a week of years is divided into two periods of 3.5 years! We are told there is a 70th Week, and the implication is that in the middle of this Week offerings are ended. This means that either the 70th Week is a shortened Week, or the last half of the Week is without animal sacrifices.
V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE, yeah, BY SEVEN YEARS. And he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
No, I don't see that for the reason I gave you. I'm not saying your view is wrong or unreasonable--only that I see it differently for the reasons I gave you. The "prince," to be consistent, is the same as the one whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary. For me, that would be Rome.
And so, this Roman prince "confirms a covenant" in the 70th Week, which for me is a shortened week. The covenant that is confirmed, which includes animal sacrifices, loses its efficacy, since those animal sacrifices are delegitimized.
So I don't see the covenant that is confirmed to be a treaty or peace agreement that the Roman prince makes. Rather, he is "confirming" the covenant God made with Israel. He is doing this indirectly by meeting the conditions necessary for God's covenant with Israel to be fulfilled.
By putting Christ to death he is indirectly confirming God's covenant with Israel to provide them with an eternal atoning sacrifice. In ending the temporary atonement under the Law God confirms His eternal covenant with Israel through Messiah.
I think you are confusing an historically-fulfilled prophecy with endtimes prophecy. The 70th Week, for me, was fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
The 3.5 years in the book of Revelation has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather, refers to Dan 7, where the Little Horn wrecks havoc for 3.5 years. Two completely different prophecies!
I'm not insulting or discrediting your position. I'm just stating my own position, and defending it against the charge that it is "confusing."
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Quote from: RandyPNW on Yesterday at 11:15:57 PM
There is nothing more logical that considering the possibility that the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" could have something to do with the events of 70 AD, at which time the city and the sanctuary were in fact destroyed!
OSEAS said:Quote >>> Your interpretation does not fit the period of a week of years (seven years) according Daniel 9:v.27, divided into two periods of 3.5 years, the first ruled by the Beast of sea for 42 months -Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5 - and the second period ruled by the WICKED Prince-Ezekiel 21:v.25 and 2 Thes. 2 and Revelation 13:v.11 to 18.<<<
Quote from: RandyPNW on Yesterday at 11:15:57 PM
There is no place in the Scriptures where a week of years is divided into two periods of 3.5 years! We are told there is a 70th Week, and the implication is that in the middle of this Week offerings are ended. This means that either the 70th Week is a shortened Week, or the last half of the Week is without animal sacrifices.
[/quote]
You are believing in an interpretation given by the letter, not by the Spirit of prophecy, the Spirit of GOD. Analyzing by your own words, Oh you heard a false interpretation of the Word of GOD, that is: "the 70th Week is a shortened Week, or the last half of the Week is without animal sacrifices", again the interpretation you received, and is spread by you, does not fit with the Word of GOD. See, Daniel 9:v.27 does not speak of "animal sacrifices" as you say, no, absolutely no. Scripture speaks only and only of ONE sacrifice, the sacrifice of JESUS. Check it in Hebrews 10:v.9-18 written for our knowledgment, among other Scriptures.
Furthermore, the sacrifice of JESUS still lasts, I mean, the Jesus' sacrifice is not over yet, but it still goes on, and it is still within the expiration date, by the way, it is the sacrifice of JESUS that prevents or restrains the manifestation of the Wicked -the Wicked Prince- until today, understand? Check it in 2 Thes.2:v.7. JESUS is ALIVE, JESUS lives, understand? But what is written? it is until he be taken out of the way, well, this will happen soon, very soon, then will fulfill what JESUS said: Matthew 24:v.15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Daniel 12:v.11-12: 11 - And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 - Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. - Yeah, the GLORIOUS AND MARVELOUS AND WONDERFUL DAY 1.335
Get ready
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There is nothing more logical that considering the possibility that the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" could have something to do with the events of 70 AD, at which time the city and the sanctuary were in fact destroyed!
Your interpretation does not fit the period of a week of years (seven years) according Daniel 9:v.27, divided into two periods of 3.5 years, the first ruled by the Beast of sea for 42 months -Revelation 11:v.2 and Revelation 13:v.5 - and the second period ruled by the WICKED Prince-Ezekiel 21:v.25 and 2 Thes. 2 and Revelation 13:v.11 to 18.
There is no place in the Scriptures where a week of years is divided into two periods of 3.5 years! We are told there is a 70th Week, and the implication is that in the middle of this Week offerings are ended. This means that either the 70th Week is a shortened Week, or the last half of the Week is without animal sacrifices.
V.27 He (he WHOM? the PRINCE; who is he?) he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week [of years]. (THE WEEK 70th)
Do you see? This SATANIC PRINCE will RULE the last week, the week 70th, BY ENTIRE, yeah, BY SEVEN YEARS. And he will make a STRONG COVENANT with LEADERS for ONE week[of years]. (This prince was/is not a contemporary of JESUS, absolutely)
No, I don't see that for the reason I gave you. I'm not saying your view is wrong or unreasonable--only that I see it differently for the reasons I gave you. The "prince," to be consistent, is the same as the one whose people destroy the city and the sanctuary. For me, that would be Rome.
And so, this Roman prince "confirms a covenant" in the 70th Week, which for me is a shortened week. The covenant that is confirmed, which includes animal sacrifices, loses its efficacy, since those animal sacrifices are delegitimized.
So I don't see the covenant that is confirmed to be a treaty or peace agreement that the Roman prince makes. Rather, he is "confirming" the covenant God made with Israel. He is doing this indirectly by meeting the conditions necessary for God's covenant with Israel to be fulfilled.
By putting Christ to death he is indirectly confirming God's covenant with Israel to provide them with an eternal atoning sacrifice. In ending the temporary atonement under the Law God confirms His eternal covenant with Israel through Messiah.
I think you are confusing an historically-fulfilled prophecy with endtimes prophecy. The 70th Week, for me, was fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
The 3.5 years in the book of Revelation has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather, refers to Dan 7, where the Little Horn wrecks havoc for 3.5 years. Two completely different prophecies!
I'm not insulting or discrediting your position. I'm just stating my own position, and defending it against the charge that it is "confusing."
Here goes what JESUS said about the prince, who has nothing to do with any Roman prince as you believe:
John 12:v.31 - Now is the Judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world (Devil's world) be cast out.[/color]
John 14:v.30 ... the prince of this world (PRINCE OF THE WORLD OF DEVIL) cometh, and hath nothing in me-SAID JESUS, COURSE.
John 17:v. 11-12
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world (World of Devil), and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2 Thessalonians 2:v. 3 to 13
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be REVEALED in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT of His MOUTH (His words), and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth:
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Here goes what JESUS said about the prince, who has nothing to do with any Roman prince as you believe:
I'm with Randy on this one. Vespasian actually presided over the destruction of Jerusalem during the timeframe in question, which is exactly what the "prince" is supposed to do. The end time prophecies about Jerusalem are for the most part very positive, as I posted above.
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Here goes what JESUS said about the prince, who has nothing to do with any Roman prince as you believe:
I'm with Randy on this one. Vespasian actually presided over the destruction of Jerusalem during the timeframe in question, which is exactly what the "prince" is supposed to do. The end time prophecies about Jerusalem are for the most part very positive, as I posted above.
It will be, I think, like a woman having a child. It will be painful, but the result will be a beautiful child. Israel will be reborn as a nation in covenant with God, and will achieve great vindication among the nations as God's People. I just believe that other nations will have followed suit. :)
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Here goes what JESUS said about the prince, who has nothing to do with any Roman prince as you believe:
John 12:v.31 - Now is the Judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world (Devil's world) be cast out.[/color]
John 14:v.30 ... the prince of this world (PRINCE OF THE WORLD OF DEVIL) cometh, and hath nothing in me-SAID JESUS, COURSE.
The prince of the world, in this particular context, refers to Satan--not to the Roman prince. It is a reference to the fact Jesus had power over the demons and over Satan himself, and was willing to annul the guilt imposed upon mankind by this evil angel.
Angels were given the power to exercise God's justice on earth. Such was the case with the cherubim in the garden, who guarded the way back to the Tree of Life. Men were found to be delegitimized among those with access to eternal life, and angels enforce this decision.
Christ's point was that through him mankind can be liberated from this guilt, and may have renewed access to eternal life. The "prince," therefore, refers to Satan, and not to the Roman prince.
There is nothing in here about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. It is all about Satan's inability to judge the sinless Christ, which we also see in the Man-child prophecy of Rev 12.
Rev 12.4 The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Jesus may or may not have had Dan 9 in mind, along with what I believe was the "Roman prince." But Daniel was a book that saw angelic forces behind political events. And perhaps Jesus was acknowledging that Satan was behind the Roman oppression of Jerusalem and its ultimate destruction?
Nevertheless, the event was not to be the end of Israel. Otherwise, the prophecy would never have been given. The removal of temple protection would lead to a long period of Jewish despair. But in the end salvation would come to Israel.
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It is all about Satan's inability to judge the sinless Christ, which we also see in the Man-child prophecy of Rev 12.
Rev 12.4 The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Revelation was written around 65 years after JESUS ascension. The book of Revelation of Jesus Christ, GOD gave unto JESUS, to show unto His servants things which must come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John. JOHN said: I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then said he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship GOD. JESUS, the Word made flesh is GOD. The Word is GOD, understand?
JOHN bare record of the Word of GOD, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ -THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY- , and of all things that he saw.
JESUS was not speaking of Himself in Revelation 12, the woman clothed with the sun -JESUS is the Sun-the Greater Light-, and the moon under her feet- who receives light of the Sun-JESUS- is the Lesser Light- NOTE that the moon has no light in itself, it has no light of its own, the moon reflects the light of the Sun, the light of JESUS, as is written in John 16:v.12 to 15.
JESUS was not speaking of Himself after 65 years of His ascension in Revelation 12, no, absolutely no. And the Woman is not Israel. The man child is not JESUS. JESUS will not born again in this current time of Apocalypse.
The woman is not neither the 144K which will be sealed from now on or in this current time. Revelation 7:v.2-4:
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the East, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voicae to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth -Israel- and the sea-ALL Gentile nations-,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees-the Christians/believers of Churches-, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads -144K-.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The Man-child is ... another, not JESUS.