The two princes of Dan 9 both godly

[ross3421]

This always confused however when understanding the city is destroyed prior to the 2nd coming it becomes clear. 

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[RandyPNW]

The passage makes so much more sense to me personally if we see the "people of the prince to come" as the Roman Army. This is the passage Jesus referred to, I believe, in his Olivet Discourse. He said that the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman Army, would surround Jerusalem, ultimately defeating it and destroying it and the temple. It all took place in 70 AD, leading to a Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, an age-long Punishment designed to keep them in tow until their national restoration at the end of the age.

[Fenris]

This translation is so problematic.

the Messiah the Prince

Hebrew says "an anointed prince".

Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

Hebrew says, "an anointed shall be cut off, and have nothing". (Alternatively, "and be no more". )

and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Funny, my text doesn't have the word "David" in any language. Why did you add that? Seems quite obviously referring to the Romans, why would David (long dead, by the by) come and destroy Jerusalem?

[ross3421]

and the people of the prince that shall come (David) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary


Funny, my text doesn't have the word "David" in any language. Why did you add that? Seems quite obviously referring to the Romans, why would David (long dead, by the by) come and destroy Jerusalem?

i will agree...the prince could be the same the people of the prince to come being Messiah the Prince, the people his army.  Note the army involved with the city prior.

[Fenris]

Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?

[ross3421]

Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?

can not a city be destroyed in the future?

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants

[Fenris]

Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?

can not a city be destroyed in the future?

The whole context of those passages are of the second temple era. Why have it refer to something else when we already have an historical event to tie it to?

the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants

I don't think these verses mention the messiah at all. It simply says "an anointed" which means a king, and not even necessarily a Jewish one.  But supposing that you are correct, why is the messiah destroying Jerusalem?

[RandyPNW]

Why can't the prince to come be Vespasian, who, you know, actually destroyed the city?

the purpose of this thread was to show that the people of the prince to come are from the prince of goodness though the prince in both may in fact be the messiah and his oeople/army goes before him in the 6th trumpet and destroys the city and inhabinants

If Fenris is right, that the "prince is Vespasion," and I believe the prince was either Vespasion or Titus, then what you show is irrelevant. The people of the prince to come indicates an Army because it is said to destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Roman Army accomplished that in 70 AD.

So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.

[ross3421]

So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.

well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.

you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture.

1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with er, they are become her enemies.
3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
4 The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.
5 Her adversaries are the chief, her enemies prosper; for the Lord hath afflicted her for the multitude of her transgressions: her children are gone into captivity before the enemy.
6 And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.
7 Jerusalem remembered in the days of her affliction and of her miseries all her pleasant things that she had in the days of old, when her people fell into the hand of the enemy, and none did help her: the adversaries saw her, and did mock at her sabbaths.
8 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.
9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O Lord, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.
10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
11 All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their pleasant things for meat to relieve the soul: see, O Lord, and consider; for I am become vile.
12 Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the Lord hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
13 From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day.
14 The yoke of my transgressions is bound by his hand: they are wreathed, and come up upon my neck: he hath made my strength to fall, the Lord hath delivered me into their hands, from whom I am not able to rise up.
15 The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.
16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are esolate, because the enemy prevailed.
17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the Lord hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.
18 The Lord is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandment: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow: my virgins and my young men are gone into captivity.
19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.
20 Behold, O Lord; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
21 They have heard that I sigh: there is none to comfort me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done it: thou wilt bring the day that thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me.
22 Let all their wickedness come before thee; and do unto them, as thou hast done unto me for all my transgressions: for my sighs are many, and my heart is faint.


the other thing is you think this is a time of the cross no it deals with the second coming at a time when jerusalem  commits whoredom

[Fenris]

well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.

you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture.

This is from the book of Lamentations, which was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. It's not a prophecy, it is a past event.

[RandyPNW]

So what you seek to show is a theory based on the assumption the prince was Jesus, who you apparently think will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the future. There are so many things wrong with this that it just doesn't match what is being said. But you're entitled to your own view for sure.

well not is you see babylon as jerusalem.

you obviously have gotten your theory not from scripture...

the other thing is you think this is a time of the cross no it deals with the second coming at a time when jerusalem  commits whoredom

Yes, I do *not* see Dan 9 and the prince's people coming to destroy Jerusalem  as anything but the coming of a Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. I do *not* see Babylon as Jerusalem. I see "Harlot Babylon" in Rev 17 as the city of Rome.

These are two different prophecies with two different applications. One has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. The other prophecy refers to the history of Rome from the time of Jesus to the end of the age, and was given, I think, *after* the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem.

[Fenris]

Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?

[Athanasius]

Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?

Because for this person, the love of Israel is confused for a kind of sick fetishism.

[ross3421]

This is from the book of Lamentations, which was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. It's not a prophecy, it is a past event.
[/quote]

it relate to jerusalem for all time including the future

[ross3421]

Why would anyone think that Jerusalem, of all places, deserves to be destroyed at ends times anyway?

because jerusalem again plays the harlot.  she commits fornication. jerusalem is called a whore


I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?

But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.