BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: RandyPNW on August 23, 2021, 11:36:22 AM
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God does not expect us to be perfect. But He does expect us to have a perfect standard, upon which to rely. Christ is that perfect standard, who has given us his Spirit. And if we live a life relying on that Spirit, it proves that we have accepted him as the right standard of righteousness.
The Law of Moses was given to Israel to establish a relationship with God, but could not provide a perfect standard for righteousness, because it was administered through imperfect priests. Because of their human flaws, they showed that their own works were flawed, and that human death remained a hindrance to unbroken relationship with God.
Christ came to fulfill Israel's hope in an eternal relationship with God. His own flawless life was not threatened by sin and death, and he could offer us his Spirit as the basis for obtaining this eternal relationship with God.
Now that Christ has come, we have an example of righteousness that is free of the curse of sin and death. We cannot attain perfection on our own, but we've been given the opportunity to live in dependence upon Christ's perfect Spirit to show our preference for God's perfect standard of righteousness.
In accepting Christ we accept God's basis for an eternal relationship with Himself. And it requires not just that we accept how Christ has lived, but that we recognize that he gave us his Spirit so that we may live a life dependent on his Spirit.
1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
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I hope I see you in the kingdom of God.
I tend to differ slightly with your presentation of this topic.
Throughout the entire bible it calls for us to be perfect.
If you start off with the premise that it is humanly impossible to be perfect, you might just fall somewhat short, even though you will probably know it during the process.
But sometimes we can deceive ourselves based on the teachings of our church.
Of course it is only God who knows when our hearts are considered perfect as He does not look on the outer man but on the heart.
Now we should aim for perfection at all times as it is God, through His Holy Spirit that empowers us to be perfect and not we ourselves.
The Holy Spirit is underrated in this world and for the most part ignored and that is a very big mistake. God or Jesus Christ do not mince their words or exaggerate or pretty up things to sound nice.
What they say they mean and human reasoning plays no role in this endeavor. We are truly living in total darkness on this earth and many are going to be blind to that truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.
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I hope I see you in the kingdom of God.
I tend to differ slightly with your presentation of this topic.
Throughout the entire bible it calls for us to be perfect.
If you start off with the premise that it is humanly impossible to be perfect, you might just fall somewhat short, even though you will probably know it during the process.
But sometimes we can deceive ourselves based on the teachings of our church.
Of course it is only God who knows when our hearts are considered perfect as He does not look on the outer man but on the heart.
Now we should aim for perfection at all times as it is God, through His Holy Spirit that empowers us to be perfect and not we ourselves.
The Holy Spirit is underrated in this world and for the most part ignored and that is a very big mistake. God or Jesus Christ do not mince their words or exaggerate or pretty up things to sound nice.
What they say they mean and human reasoning plays no role in this endeavor. We are truly living in total darkness on this earth and many are going to be blind to that truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.
Most likely we will meet up in Heaven, Pablo. All it requires is that we convert our selfish life to the nature of Christ's life, which is given in service to God, and not strictly to our own choices. All our earthly decisions should be informed by Heaven--not dictated but regulated.
By that I mean that God counsels us at every turn when we make Him lord. He shows us the way of love, and though we have many choices to freely make, we must ensure that it always accords with God's love.
Thinking we can be "perfect" in this is absurd. The Scriptures never assume we can be perfect--they only claim that we must adhere to a perfect standard, which is none other than the life of Christ. We can't be saved by adhering to partly good and partly bad standards--we require a perfect standard.
There is never any thought that we can be perfect in the sense of becoming "sinless." No, the word "perfect" has at least 2 or 3 different applications, which must be applied in context.
The way we are told to be "perfect" is not the 1st definition of "perfect" as a "sinless" perfection. We could never do that.
Rather, we are told to adhere to a perfect standard, which is Christ. It isn't just about rule-keeping, but more, about adjusting our sights on Christ himself, through whom we receive the Holy Spirit. Apart from divine spirituality our rule-keeping is meaningless!
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I might still see you in heaven. But only God knows. Plus I do not know you well enough to know your state.
Our hope is our salvation. And the same argument, I suppose that you talked about as pertaining to perfection applies to Hope.
Hope is something that we can stake our lives on and not the hope that wishes for something.
I was a bit confused by you explanation of the word "perfection" as used by the bible.
I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own.
Jesus said something very important to Peter when Peter was inquiring about Jesus's plan for John. (John 21:22)
Jesus told Peter to mind his own business and also directed him to follow him (Jesus), that is to keep his eyes straight ahead not looking to the right or to the left.
Jesus also told John a similar thing (Luke 9:49), not quite so blunt, when John complained about another group casting out spirits, who were not with Jesus's group. Jesus told John to leave them alone.
Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.
The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.
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So then preaching and teaching the Bible must clearly be against God’s plan?
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I might still see you in heaven. But only God knows. Plus I do not know you well enough to know your state.
Our hope is our salvation. And the same argument, I suppose that you talked about as pertaining to perfection applies to Hope.
Hope is something that we can stake our lives on and not the hope that wishes for something.
It's similar in the sense that the word "hope" has more than one definition just as the word "perfect" has more than one definition. I would agree with you that the biblical "hope" is not just a "wish." It is something certain that we expect to happen.
But "perfect" has nothing to do with wishing to be sinless. It has to do with proper alignment with God's cause--not perfect alignment as in sinless perfection, but "proper" alignment with the perfect Christ.
When God gave Israel the Law, He gave them a perfect standard to live by. But He knew Israel couldn't be sinless and perfect, and so He provided them through His Law means of adjusting for their imperfections.
They could apply the means of redemption, which is attention to the regulations of the Law, the sabbaths, the sacrifices, the temple worship, etc. This is the biblical means of being "perfect," meaning to not follow a false standard. Following a false standard of righteousness is not following the path of perfection.
I was a bit confused by you explanation of the word "perfection" as used by the bible.
There is massive evidence in the Bible that we all have sin, not the least of which is in 1 John 1. If we say we don't have sin, we make God a liar.
So if we claim we're called to be "perfect" in the sense of becoming "sinless," we should know we're off the beaten path.
"But the word 'perfect' itself means what it says," you say? Well yes, "perfect" applies to the standard to which we apply ourselves, and not to ourselves as having reached the state of perfection. We become "perfect" when we apply ourselves to a proper law. We are "imperfect" when we apply ourselves to a "fake law."
When Israel applied themselves to the perfect Law, they observed it to be "perfect"--not sinless, but compliant with the right standard.
The same thing applies in the NT. When we apply ourselves to the standard of the perfect Christ, we become "perfect" in the sense of conforming to the right standard. It has no sense whatsoever in terms of suggesting we've become sinless.
We just can say we're conforming to the right standard, to "perfection." We are on the path of perfection, but we ourselves are not yet perfect in the sense of sinlessness.
I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own.
Jesus said something very important to Peter when Peter was inquiring about Jesus's plan for John. (John 21:22)
Jesus told Peter to mind his own business and also directed him to follow him (Jesus), that is to keep his eyes straight ahead not looking to the right or to the left.
Jesus also told John a similar thing (Luke 9:49), not quite so blunt, when John complained about another group casting out spirits, who were not with Jesus's group. Jesus told John to leave them alone.
Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.
I agree that we each have our own path to walk. But plagiarizing the Church Fathers? Where do you get that?
It's wise to judge everything by our own experience with God. But to suggest others have their own experience with God but can't have any ministry to others is unscriptural.
We're called to edify one another. If you become an "island," and only consult your own thoughts, and ignore the warnings of others, you're going to be convicted by God as self-oriented, and not in submission to God or to anybody else. Dangerous.
The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.
Where in the Bible are we told that the work of Christian ministers is to be ignored except Scriptures themselves? The new-born Church didn't even have the New Testament! They had to go to the OT Scriptures for guidance, as well as to Jesus and his Disciples.
Really, I suffered a lot as a young Christian because I didn't have many spiritual mentors around me. Raising yourself can be an arduous task!
I had to look to books by spiritual authors. They were tremendous help at a time when I could've used a lot more. And truly, we need help even understanding the Scriptures properly. But yes, you are on your own little island. I suggest you expand your horizons a bit more?
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Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.
The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.
And if two truths contradict each other? Where exactly are you getting this, starting to rub up against 2 Peter, view of revelation and Scripture?
Here I got a song for ya:
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One’s subjective experience is a lousy standard of judgment
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One’s subjective experience is a lousy standard of judgment
It's unfortunate the confusion between one's subjectivity and subjectiveness. The subjectivity of my experience with God is my own, but this in no way suggests that God has revealed to me truths about Scripture that wouldn't be true for others. The subjectivity is in the relation between God and myself, but that's as far as it extends. There is nothing subjective about any truth God reveals if what's meant by this is a kind of relativism.
Things like:
"I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own."
Are a call to examine the Scriptures to determine a proper meaning of the idea of 'perfection'. It's not a call to retreat into insular relativism. The idea that, "We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth." is utterly destructive. It's postmodern, and self-refuting as such.
Hang on, I know what I'll do...
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Ah, the land of theology. Arguments from Scripture required going forward.
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Where in the Bible are we told that the work of Christian ministers is to be ignored except Scriptures themselves? The new-born Church didn't even have the New Testament! They had to go to the OT Scriptures for guidance, as well as to Jesus and his Disciples.
Really, I suffered a lot as a young Christian because I didn't have many spiritual mentors around me. Raising yourself can be an arduous task!
I had to look to books by spiritual authors. They were tremendous help at a time when I could've used a lot more. And truly, we need help even understanding the Scriptures properly. But yes, you are on your own little island. I suggest you expand your horizons a bit more?
Hi Randy
It is strange that I believe that I was fortunate to not have been inducted into a church as a member because if I was, then I believe that I would now be parroting the many belief creeds that some one man or even a group of men concocted as being the truth.
Yes, I am living on a Island and it's the most beautiful thing ever in my life and I also know that even though I am alone, it is good, as Jesus himself endured much and was obedient to the very end.
Yes all good/bad things in this world must come to an end as this world is not our salvation, so to speak.
Paul himself was the prime example of getting everything godly from God and not from others, not even the other disciples (and he said so himself to make sure that it was known)
Now to be sure the Jews had the word (oracles) of God, but the Gentiles did not, and it was incumbent on Paul who got the truth, the new covenant, to pass this on to them directly. (The New Testament was not yet written) and thus they had to meet to receive this new teaching, a very complex thing as we can see from Paul's teachings.
In fact Peter warns us that many could lose their way by misunderstanding Paul's teachings which he characterized as very difficult to understand. (Of course with the Holy Spirit that is impossible if the true Christian does not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit)
I believe that the church today does not have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot be party to traditions and the like. Everyone say that they have the Holy Spirit only because the bible says so, but they don't because they are pushing Him out with the traditions and teachings of men.
I am not bringing another religion here, but am only stating my personal experience with God and his Holy Spirit.
Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.
Lastly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but merely expressing my experiences with God as it is God who does everything in the area of giving grace to those who would receive it (not in vain) and thus come to experience the mind-blowing truths that sets a man free.
I am submitting these 5 verses in regards to my post (The Standard of Righteousness) and there are scores more but these will suffice for now.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Paul’s reception of the Word of God
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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Hi Randy
It is strange that I believe that I was fortunate to not have been inducted into a church as a member because if I was, then I believe that I would now be parroting the many belief creeds that some one man or even a group of men concocted as being the truth.
There's a lot of truth in that. We do tend to pick up the quirks and errors of even the best of our teachers. Those who have influenced me, though, may not be able to discern it, because I remain cautious, and stubbornly resistant to propaganda. ;)
I prefer the inevitable embrace of peripheral errors, learning some important truths, than not getting important truths for many, many years on my own! That's what teachers are for--to reduce the time that would be spent learning on our own! We can always learn critical thinking, and gradually get rid of the flaws along the way.
Some people have called me "stubborn." We should be stubborn, and not overly pliable, holding onto something that seems right until proven wrong. I wish the Catholic Church had done that with Galileo! ;)
Yes, I am living on a Island and it's the most beautiful thing ever in my life and I also know that even though I am alone, it is good, as Jesus himself endured much and was obedient to the very end.
God can keep you wherever you choose to live. I do like the serenity of spending time alone. I'm not particularly social, as you can probably tell if you read some of my posts. ;)
Yes all good/bad things in this world must come to an end as this world is not our salvation, so to speak.
Now you're just stating the obvious and preaching to the choir! ;)
Paul himself was the prime example of getting everything godly from God and not from others, not even the other disciples (and he said so himself to make sure that it was known)
Well, you have a point there! We must be sure that tradition doesn't get a hold of our ear before we learn to hear God Himself. Revelation first, and then we can tackle centuries of Christian theology. But the theology must not be neglected--it is a window into the world, which we must evangelize. They speak the language of a long history of traditions. And we must learn from the past.
Keep in mind that Paul had to go out to the desert as a young Christian to learn to hear God's voice for just a short time. Then he went immediately to those more experienced and learned in Christianity than he was. He went to those who had been close to Jesus and knew exactly what he said. Paul didn't expect Jesus to mystically explain everything he had said during his earthly ministry. And Paul certainly wanted to know that!
Now to be sure the Jews had the word (oracles) of God, but the Gentiles did not, and it was incumbent on Paul who got the truth, the new covenant, to pass this on to them directly. (The New Testament was not yet written) and thus they had to meet to receive this new teaching, a very complex thing as we can see from Paul's teachings.
Now I think you're reaching. You're trying to vindicate your "island's" point of view. You're trying to justify placing yourself in solitary confinement. You can open up those prison doors...if you want to. It's a dangerous world, but it's more dangerous being a spiritual hermit.
In fact Peter warns us that many could lose their way by misunderstanding Paul's teachings which he characterized as very difficult to understand. (Of course with the Holy Spirit that is impossible if the true Christian does not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit)
The warning Peter intended to give is to watch out for those who would twist Christian teaching to mean something corrupt. The lesson is to "study to show yourself approved of God," as Paul exhorted. He did not say just to study him/Paul, nor to just study personal revelation. Those things are truth, but the focus is on a personal relationship with God coupled with studying the word of God, along with benefiting from the instruction and exhortation of others gifted to teach.
Why do you ignore that part? I think it's very healthy to avoid an unhealthy "self-esteem" by submitting to others, and by learning to accept the flaws of others.
I believe that the church today does not have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot be party to traditions and the like. Everyone say that they have the Holy Spirit only because the bible says so, but they don't because they are pushing Him out with the traditions and teachings of men.
Now that's downright judgmentalism! Are you saying you've personally visited all of these millions of Christians you say are phonies? My own experience is 180 degrees the opposite of your view! I do see a lot of flawed Christians, who hold to traditional doctrines that I disagree with. But I also see them filled with the Holy Spirit, notwithstanding their imperfections and flaws.
The Holy Spirit doesn't come on perfect people--just obedient people. And we have not attained to full stature yet. The Holy Spirit comes to us to to help us attain to full stature, and doesn't wait until we've already arrived there!
Besides, traditions aren't always wrong. Paul spoke of Christian traditions that are reasonable. And these would include what some call "the sacraments" of baptism, communion, meeting together once a week, etc. There is nothing wrong with having holidays that remember Jesus' death and birth.
I am not bringing another religion here, but am only stating my personal experience with God and his Holy Spirit.
OK
Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.
We each have our own subjective experience with God. But truth is objective and can, in fact, be passed from one head to another. The Bible says we each have a name that nobody else knows--that is our own personal relationship with God. But we also have a collective consciousness of God. If you've ever been to a large faithful church, you will notice in the worship time that everybody is conscious of God's presence in their midst?
Lastly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but merely expressing my experiences with God as it is God who does everything in the area of giving grace to those who would receive it (not in vain) and thus come to experience the mind-blowing truths that sets a man free.
I am submitting these 5 verses in regards to my post (The Standard of Righteousness) and there are scores more but these will suffice for now.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Paul’s reception of the Word of God
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I memorized 1 John back in around 1972. It's one of my favorite epistles. And I agree with every word you posted from that book. However, you are slanting the meaning of John's focus on revelation to something very inward and private. We need to watch out for that kind of thing, as indicated here:
Col 2.6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness....
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
This is another book of the Bible that I memorized a long time ago. I think God was trying to protect me from excessive focus on myself to the neglect of others. Thanks for sharing.
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I will make this short and only make one or 2 points.
Jesus never attributed Peter's understanding to himself but told Peter - God was the one who revealed it to you. Jesus brought the message from God but it was God who worked in Peter's heart for him to know.
I will not rehash what we have touched on and I should say that our interaction although coming from different perspectives and with quite a few differences was quite peaceful and acceptable.
I will end with just one thought that just occurred to me and that is, I believe your perspective conforms to Jesus coming as the man of peace to save the world while my perspective conforms more to him coming as a judge to bring tribulation on the world.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
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I will make this short and only make one or 2 points.
Jesus never attributed Peter's understanding to himself but told Peter - God was the one who revealed it to you. Jesus brought the message from God but it was God who worked in Peter's heart for him to know.
I will not rehash what we have touched on and I should say that our interaction although coming from different perspectives and with quite a few differences was quite peaceful and acceptable.
I will end with just one thought that just occurred to me and that is, I believe your perspective conforms to Jesus coming as the man of peace to save the world while my perspective conforms more to him coming as a judge to bring tribulation on the world.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Well, I certainly am not set up to be vulnerable to Antichristian revelation! ;) Furthermore, I don't even believe that Antichrist will come as a "Man of Peace." That's a regular talking point for those whose theology is largely "Dispensational." They often interpret the 70th Week of Daniel in Dan 9 as referring to a 7 year Antichristian Covenant. That certainly isn't my interpretation!
I see the 70th Week as fulfilled with the 3.5 years of Christ's earthly ministry, when he was "cut off." That completely fulfilled the 70 Weeks.
So there really is no other basis for seeing Christ's Coming as a "Man of Peace." The book of Revelation clearly sees Christ's Coming as a time of enormous judgment for the world. So I just don't get your characterization of our differences?
My whole recommendation to you was that you not look strictly inward in your spiritual development. As I quoted from Colossians, you should walk "as you were taught," and recognize that the "Head" distributes ministry to and through through the whole body. Paul taught that just as the body has a number of different parts, so the ministry of the leadership of the Church assumes several different forms, and is essential to the proper functioning of the Body.
I 100% agree with you that we must have a personal relationship with God, and get our guidance from our own consciences. Revelation is spiritual, and we must be able to discern the word of God as God guides us in His love at all times. It is in detecting the revelation of God's word that we can properly receive help from other Christians, particularly from leaders equipped to do so. We simply have to judge all things with a critical eye so that we receive the good and ignore the bad.
What I don't see from you is any recognition that Paul taught the manifold ministry of the Church, which involves a leadership class teaching and instructing in proper understanding of the word of God. We see imperfectly, and our vision is even more blurred in our youth, as we are quick to make assumptions and are guided by unnecessary fears. Stability comes gradually in life, and pride can be a serious obstacle to proper growth. I have no idea what level of growth you're at in your Christianity. I just wish to warn you, from personal experience, that if you turn inward too much you can make some serious mistakes. Take care...
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I really am reluctant to confront your belief system and will only in future give snippets of bible verses.
I am a Christian and I thought about going back over my posts to see where I might have gave the idea that I was anti-Christian, but that is not necessary as I know what I am.
Your last mention of Paul's teachings are of interest to me and I will just mention one point that I believe is of dire importance.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
The point I want to make here is in verse 31. For 3 whole years Paul wept day and night, warning the flock what was about to happen to them.
The 3 years is very important because this was a prophecy and not just a mere sentiment or feeling shared by Paul.
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I really am reluctant to confront your belief system and will only in future give snippets of bible verses.
I am a Christian and I thought about going back over my posts to see where I might have gave the idea that I was anti-Christian, but that is not necessary as I know what I am.
Your last mention of Paul's teachings are of interest to me and I will just mention one point that I believe is of dire importance.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
The point I want to make here is in verse 31. For 3 whole years Paul wept day and night, warning the flock what was about to happen to them.
The 3 years is very important because this was a prophecy and not just a mere sentiment or feeling shared by Paul.
And why do you think you're not exactly the sort of person Paul had in mind? It seems like you're playing at 99% truth and 1% lie. Here are some things you've said:
We can deceive ourselves based on the teachings of our church.
Sure, and we can deceive ourselves based on our own notions of what Scripture says. This can be corrected among the community of believers, which for a great many people is the church. Paul's exhortation in Hebrews 10:25 is relevant, as is the example of the Bereans in Acts 17. The life of faith is not one meant to be travelled alone.
we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.
Again, sure, but who says that learning from the ECFs, or one's pastor, is plagiarism?
We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.
Is this taught anywhere in Scripture, or are you simply drawing from Paul's experience and suggesting it ought to be true of everyone? Was it Paul in the Aeropagus who was familiar with the Greek poets and philosophers? Or, how about Paul's Pharisaic training, which surely lent to him an understanding of Scripture? How about plain ole devotions? Commentaries? Do translations count?
Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.
Yet here you are, right? But you will say, won't you, that this is just your understanding, and we ought to decide for ourselves? Tricksy.
So here's the 99% truth: it's possible for a believer to be lazy, and to fall back on what they've read in a book, or on what their pastor has told them. They don't engage in the life of faith as they should, substituting what they ought to be doing with what they hear on the radio on a Sunday morning. Fair enough, that's a real possibility.
The 1% lie? That we, therefore, ought to abandon the historical assembly. That because there is the risk of laziness, we ought not to read or study others, and be sceptical of the church. That's quite the reaction. Where is the exhortation to a proper life in faith in light of those that came before, those who tell us of what God did for them?
You're not Paul, and if you were like Paul, you wouldn't be asking us to divorce ourselves from the faithful who came before.
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When I used the word plagiarism, I am using it to mean us plagiarizing.
If I believe in the principles of Calvinism because of what John Calvin wrote, because it appears to line up with the teachings of the bible, then I may have a problem.
The Serpent in the garden told 99% truth except when he said you will not truly die. He even stated correctly that you will become as God knowing both good and evil.
Both Adam and Eve died spiritually in the garden because of the Serpent who God described as the most cunning of all the beasts in the garden.
God even told us to be as wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove to show us how treacherous the pathway to life is. (Many there be who will search for it but be unable to find it.)
So if I accepted Calvinism based upon Calvin's teaching, I would be plagiarizing John Calvin's work as my own before God, even if John Calvin was right, I would still be wrong in adopting his teachings.
If Calvin made a mistake in his deductions, then he could go back and understand where his error is, because he was the one who created it. But it would almost be impossible for us find any errors after adopting it because we did not create it.
It is similar to software development, millions of code are often written and even the author sometimes could spend an eternity trying to find his own error. Much less someone unfamiliar with the program would be eternally lost in it's maze.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (This was the first statement out of Jesus's mouth when his disciples asked him about the signs of the end)
God planned his salvation that way, so that each time we come upon a truth, we will have a "wow" moment. No one can sneak in through the back door.
Daniel 12 states that the saved will truly understand.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
As far as bibles are concerned I use the king James version because of my experience with many others over the 3 years that I have been studying the bible and serving God. I use no commentaries and was hard pressed at first to keep my fingers off them, but my resolve paid off.
I am sorry I did not take your points one by one and answer the questions that you asked. I will review you comments again and re-post my answers to them using bible verses hopefully by tomorrow.
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When I used the word plagiarism, I am using it to mean us plagiarizing.
If I believe in the principles of Calvinism because of what John Calvin wrote, because it appears to line up with the teachings of the bible, then I may have a problem.
The people who are described or self-describe as Calvinists are, by the large, people who've studied Scripture and come to similar understandings of John Calvin. Calvin may have prompted their investigations, but they aren't people who follow Calvin instead of Jesus and more than you're a person who follows Paul instead of Jesus. 'Calvinism' is merely a convenient label for others. Is that person a Calvinist? Now I know broadly what they believe Scripture is teaching.
Paul's myriad warnings against false teachers (like 1 Timothy 6, Galatians 6, Acts 20, Roman 16s, etc.) pertain to those who say, 'follow me', 'believe me', and so forth. There is a world of difference between this kind of person, and a Calvin, or a Barth, or a Wright, and so on. You seem to be conflating the two.
The Serpent in the garden told 99% truth except when he said you will not truly die. He even stated correctly that you will become as God knowing both good and evil.
Both Adam and Eve died spiritually in the garden because of the Serpent who God described as the most cunning of all the beasts in the garden.
God even told us to be as wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove to show us how treacherous the pathway to life is. (Many there be who will search for it but be unable to find it.)
Yeah, I'm comparing what you're saying to the words of the serpent, or Satan, in Matthew 4. There's no need to retell the story to us.
So if I accepted Calvinism based upon Calvin's teaching, I would be plagiarizing John Calvin's work as my own before God, even if John Calvin was right, I would still be wrong in adopting his teachings.
It seems to me that you would be irresponsible, but this is an exhortation to take responsibility, not eschew Calvin entirely.
If Calvin made a mistake in his deductions, then he could go back and understand where his error is, because he was the one who created it. But it would almost be impossible for us find any errors after adopting it because we did not create it.
Well, that's just wrong. You seem to be assuming a caricature of a Christian who adopts without a second's thought towards examination, reflection, and so on. A Christian who has no understanding, intellectual ability, and the like.
It is similar to software development, millions of code are often written and even the author sometimes could spend an eternity trying to find his own error. Much less someone unfamiliar with the program would be eternally lost in it's maze.
That author should then clearly comment her code and ensure that it's readable. Calvin, though I am not a 'Calvinist', was not akin to a sloppy software engineer. The same for other theologians. Perhaps you might suggest that the code was obfuscated on purpose, and so too, the theology? Here we could equate ideas to open source. The language may be difficult (think of a Kierkegaard, for instance), but it's not so obtuse as to be indecipherable. Authors tend to explain themselves, like engineers who comment their code. Debugging tools exist.
Errors tend also to reveal their source, and at the end of the day, this is an analogy. Not everything translates 1:1.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (This was the first statement out of Jesus's mouth when his disciples asked him about the signs of the end)
God planned his salvation that way, so that each time we come upon a truth, we will have a "wow" moment. No one can sneak in through the back door.
Daniel 12 states that the saved will truly understand.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
As you can see, I am taking heed.
As far as bibles are concerned I use the king James version because of my experience with many others over the 3 years that I have been studying the bible and serving God. I use no commentaries and was hard pressed at first to keep my fingers off them, but my resolve paid off.
And thus you've come up with a wild understanding of Scripture. I read the King James, and the ESV, and the NIV, and the NASV, and an interlinear or two. If you're about to suggest KJVO or something akin to it then don't. We're not going to go there.
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I really am reluctant to confront your belief system and will only in future give snippets of bible verses.
I am a Christian and I thought about going back over my posts to see where I might have gave the idea that I was anti-Christian, but that is not necessary as I know what I am.
Sorry, I guess I was jumping way ahead in what I thought you were saying. I engage of lots of discussions about biblical prophecy. A common mantra is that Antichrist is coming as a "Man of Peace," which is what I thought you were suggesting my view is. Sorry I got you wrong.
I was only suggesting that your positioning me as X and you as Y was incorrect in my thinking. You said:
I will end with just one thought that just occurred to me and that is, I believe your perspective conforms to Jesus coming as the man of peace to save the world while my perspective conforms more to him coming as a judge to bring tribulation on the world.
So I thought you were suggesting that I viewed Jesus as coming in peace, which is a setup for Antichrist, who many think will come deceptively as a "Man of Peace." But I don't think Jesus is coming in peace at all, except that following judgment he will set up his Millennial Reign. I'm a Postribulationist and a Premillennialist.
Your last mention of Paul's teachings are of interest to me and I will just mention one point that I believe is of dire importance.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
The point I want to make here is in verse 31. For 3 whole years Paul wept day and night, warning the flock what was about to happen to them.
The 3 years is very important because this was a prophecy and not just a mere sentiment or feeling shared by Paul.
Yes, for 3 literal years Paul was warning people because he saw deceivers coming in to deceive Christians, or newborn converts. There's a real Devil with millions of cohorts, and there are multitudes of Christians who are testifying to the truth. Sometimes, Christians get deceived and Paul is worried about that. You're right about that, and I agree with that.
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Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.
I should have written in my reply yesterday, that the books, commentaries, devotions, etc., written by other believers (alive or dead) is in fact the passing along of the fruits of their relationship with God to others, including their understanding, perspective, and so on. To entirely silo the 'truths of God's word' to revelation alone is an incredibly dangerous doctrine. Scripture isn't taught like mathematics, but that doesn't mean its truths can't be taught.
Paul can say as many times as he wants that he was taught directly by Jesus, but the rest of the Christian community, even in the first century? Not so much.
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The foundation of my beliefs are strictly based on the bible, without which, we have nothing. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in bringing us to a proper and truthful understanding of the word of God, the bible.
To believe that Augustine or any of the other church fathers have a better connection to God than myself is not biblical and I am sure that many of us will be surprised when we do arrive in the kingdom of God, as to who is there and who is not.
I will not debate this point as I realize that I have a somewhat different foundation from most in Christendom and I know that historical customs and traditions would run contrary to what I have learned.
By the way again I must impress that I am not trying to teach anything here or influence anyone one here and am only expressing my own understanding of the bible.
But I will just give 2 biblical examples of how and where one can go wrong. I really do not debate the bible as the bible prohibits it but I will just give bible verses.
Israel was totally rejected by God except for a remnant in the Old Testament for their traditions.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Job a perfect man before God, did not succumb to the highly astute and knowledgeable men around him and thus saved himself from sinning against God.
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Paul spoke to Timothy about the last days and whenever Paul speaks about the power, he is talking about the power of the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
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The foundation of my beliefs are strictly based on the bible, without which, we have nothing. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in bringing us to a proper and truthful understanding of the word of God, the bible.
To believe that Augustine or any of the other church fathers have a better connection to God than myself is not biblical and I am sure that many of us will be surprised when we do arrive in the kingdom of God, as to who is there and who is not.
None of the authors of the Bible nor any of the apostles were better connected to God either! They were chosen because of their vicinity to the time that Jesus was here on earth. That way they could better know what Jesus said and did, and could verify that things really happened.
Again, saying Scripture and the Holy Spirit are the only sources of your teaching falls way short of biblical teaching itself. That is, you claim Scripture is your authority, and you don't even live by it!
The Scriptures say that teachers are placed in the church to help us learn the path of the Spirit. We need to mature, and we need help, just as any child needs help from his or her parents.
I'm not surprised you don't want to argue this. What you believe and state can't hold up with what you claim is your authority. So we don't have to repeat our arguments unless you care to answer your critics?
I will not debate this point as I realize that I have a somewhat different foundation from most in Christendom and I know that historical customs and traditions would run contrary to what I have learned.
You don't get to bunch up all of the churches and all of the denominations in history into a single characterization that it is false tradition and errant interpretation. As opposed to only your view? Everybody else is wrong unless they agree with you? As our other brother said, why should we listen to you any more than to the very authorities you reject?
By the way again I must impress that I am not trying to teach anything here or influence anyone one here and am only expressing my own understanding of the bible.
To be consistent, you should keep quiet, lest we fall under the sway of your "opinions?" You said that anything other than the Bible is worthless and dangerous. And so, we should consider your teaching dangerous? Or, we should just accept it as non-influential because you claim it to be so? Obviously, if you're sharing, you run the risk of influencing someone, and to you that is wrong!
But I will just give 2 biblical examples of how and where one can go wrong. I really do not debate the bible as the bible prohibits it but I will just give bible verses.
The Bible does not prohibit debating, arguing or discussing. We are to try to convince those in error to repent of their ways, according to James--James 5.20. Though it does say that *senseless, vain argumentation* is bad, reasonable, serious discussion is noble.
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The foundation of my beliefs are strictly based on the bible, without which, we have nothing. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in bringing us to a proper and truthful understanding of the word of God, the bible.
The foundation of your beliefs, as with anyone's, is predicated on your understanding of the bible. What you say of the Holy Spirit is true, but this does not mean that what you believe is correct de facto. The fact that New Testament itself exists should be evidence to the fact that views like the ones below ought to be corrected:
"We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth."
"Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit."
Paul's letters to the various churches? Timothy's ministry work (you know Timothy, who learned from Paul)? The evangelism of the apostles and disciples?
To believe that Augustine or any of the other church fathers have a better connection to God than myself is not biblical and I am sure that many of us will be surprised when we do arrive in the kingdom of God, as to who is there and who is not.
No one here has claimed that 'Augustine or any of the other church fathers' have a better connection to God than the rest of us (well, he who was a lookout is no more). But it yet still may be the case that this-or-that person may have a better or stronger relationship with God. There is every possibility of a qualitative difference in relationship.
I will not debate this point as I realize that I have a somewhat different foundation from most in Christendom and I know that historical customs and traditions would run contrary to what I have learned.
I don't think you'll need to worry about debating this particular point.
By the way again I must impress that I am not trying to teach anything here or influence anyone one here and am only expressing my own understanding of the bible.
Yes, as I said.
But I will just give 2 biblical examples of how and where one can go wrong. I really do not debate the bible as the bible prohibits it but I will just give bible verses.
The Bereans of Acts 17 would beg to differ, and there's the related Acts 15, and the whole of Paul's ministry.
Israel was totally rejected by God except for a remnant in the Old Testament for their traditions.
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Job a perfect man before God, did not succumb to the highly astute and knowledgeable men around him and thus saved himself from sinning against God.
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Paul spoke to Timothy about the last days and whenever Paul speaks about the power, he is talking about the power of the Holy Spirit.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Did you want to give these another try?
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The people who wrote the bible like the Apostles and Prophets did not write their own words or views. These are the inspired words of God and are inerrant and infallible.
Therefore to suggest that I called into question the bible authors makes no sense.
I think you should go back over my posts and read them carefully.
In fact I said that the bible is the only book that should be studied and not the books or works of other men.
Now concerning the days of Jesus the disciples were told to wait in the upper room for power from God before they could even attempt to evangelize the world.
Read very carefully Acts 1 vs 2 and you will learn how the Holy Ghost empowered the Apostles giving them supernatural powers. Phillip actually moved to and from the Ethiopian Eunuch supernaturally. Paul and Peter raised people from the dead. These are a few verses of the supernatural power given to the Apostles.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[John 20:23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The disciples (Apostles) were given power to accomplish God's will. Paul laid his hands upon Timothy to empower him.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
Remember that Jesus told his disciples that they would do greater works than he had done.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (This command was given to the disciples who would later become Apostles to carry the gospel into all the world. (The then known world at that time)
There are no apostles living today, and those churches that claim that they are Apostles are false witnesses.
The bible is the most complex book in the universe and the few simple verses that I have quoted does not touch on the vast complexity of the entire bible which you will need to know in order to know God. And the holy Spirit is the key as the natural man, whether Einstein or the greatest of scientists will not have a clue as to the meaning of it's contents.
The bible is also a trap and stumbling block to those who navigate the word of God with laxity and complacency or with laziness, that is, allowing other men to navigate it for them.
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The people who wrote the bible like the Apostles and Prophets did not write their own words or views. These are the inspired words of God and are inerrant and infallible.
Do you mean inspired, or dictated? You're describing dictation, not inspiration, but you're talking about it as if you mean inspiration, not dictation.
Of course, God inspired the authors of the Bible (the translators too? editors? and so forth?). But they did use their own words. They had their own writing style. They even had their own views:
2 Corinthians 8:10
10 And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter.
Apparently, God inspired Paul to write his own view on the matter at hand.
Therefore to suggest that I called into question the bible authors makes no sense.
That's some strange logic, don't you think?
P1. The Bible is in the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God
P2. The Apostles and Prophets did not write their own words or views
C. Therefore, it makes no sense to suggest that I - Pablo - called into question the Biblical authors
The conclusion sure does come out of left field, doesn't it?
But I didn't say that you 'called into question the bible authors'. I said that you misunderstood what you're reading. Those are two very different things.
I think you should go back over my posts and read them carefully.
In fact I said that the bible is the only book that should be studied and not the books or works of other men.
Here's a fun tidbit: when I reply to someone, assuming their posts aren't massive, I re-read the post history before replying.
I know what you said, and to your point, my reply stands. The notion that "the bible is the only book that should be studied and not the books or works of other men" is dangerous, because as I mentioned, it requires that we forgo the passed-down knowledge of the believers who came before us. It requires that we start from scratch, as it were. There's no Scriptural justification for such a view, and appealing to Paul doesn't do the trick.
Now concerning the days of Jesus the disciples were told to wait in the upper room for power from God before they could even attempt to evangelize the world.
Read very carefully Acts 1 vs 2 and you will learn how the Holy Ghost empowered the Apostles giving them supernatural powers. Phillip actually moved to and from the Ethiopian Eunuch supernaturally. Paul and Peter raised people from the dead. These are a few verses of the supernatural power given to the Apostles.
What's your point? (Philip didn't move himself of his own power, for clarity.)
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
[John 20:23] Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
The disciples (Apostles) were given power to accomplish God's will. Paul laid his hands upon Timothy to empower him.
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
Remember that Jesus told his disciples that they would do greater works than he had done.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (This command was given to the disciples who would later become Apostles to carry the gospel into all the world. (The then known world at that time)
There are no apostles living today, and those churches that claim that they are Apostles are false witnesses.
Again, what's your point? Where are you going with this?
The bible is the most complex book in the universe and the few simple verses that I have quoted does not touch on the vast complexity of the entire bible which you will need to know in order to know God. And the holy Spirit is the key as the natural man, whether Einstein or the greatest of scientists will not have a clue as to the meaning of it's contents.
The bible is also a trap and stumbling block to those who navigate the word of God with laxity and complacency or with laziness, that is, allowing other men to navigate it for them.
A community of believers would have done you real good.
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The people who wrote the bible like the Apostles and Prophets did not write their own words or views. These are the inspired words of God and are inerrant and infallible.
You may have a wrong view of "divine inspiration." If your sense of "biblical inerrancy" relies upon the idea that the biblical authors never voiced their own thoughts, then you don't have it right.
All I wish to point out, at this point, is that as reliable as Paul is in conveying divine doctrines, I can't say that he didn't restrain himself from speaking his own opinions, at times. So you are wrong about that.
1 Cor 7.25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
There are no apostles living today, and those churches that claim that they are Apostles are false witnesses.
Being led by the Spirit is not an interrupter of human thought. It is intended to lead us to think pure thoughts, to think along the lines of divine wisdom, of doing the things that befit the love of Christ, etc.
You seem to think that being straight-jacketed by the Spirit is something you can use as a shield to claim your own thoughts are spiritual without anybody else being able to criticize or question you? But as I said before, this in itself is entirely unbiblical.
The Bible, which you claim is the authority, says we are to submit ourselves to one another, and even learn from anointed teachers. But you claim the "anointing" forbids this. Somebody is wrong, and I don't think it's the Bible!
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As I said before the bible is so complex it's words of truth are inexhaustible and no man should be filled with pride where he thinks he knows it all.
The Apostle Paul always and again I say always spoke the word of God and whenever he added his own thoughts he always and again I say always told his audience or listeners that they were his own words.
And God himself allowed Paul to add his own words for our further enlightenment.
The bible cannot be generalized in anyway, and each word is just as important as the others for our perfection.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
God is not the author of confusion and cannot lie and cannot lead us in the wrong direction.
Because my words are only incidental to my disseminating the bible I will give bible verses for your consideration.
Gal_2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
(Barnabas followed Peter into sin, by showing allegiance to a man, Peter. But Peter after confrontation by Paul and additional consideration corrected himself and went in the right way. How many people or leaders have the humility of Peter to correct their wrong thinking and actions)
God uses the bible as a picture book, showing us what to do and also what not to do using the lives of those in the Book. Peter was not perfect but was told directly by Jesus to feed his sheep 3 times. (The Jews, the Gentiles and the world)
Peter's mistakes are an example for us to learn to avoid pitfalls. Barnabas is a prime example of what I have been trying to illustrate in the past few days that I have been on this site.
Do not blindly follow others in leadership positions especially in these last days where Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John paints a picture of gloom and doom to all those who would do so.
(The Antichrist and false prophets started in the days after Jesus ascended into heaven and the entire message of these apostles, is to not become entangled with them.)
Just for your consideration I will leave you with a few bible verses.
[Colossians 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[Ephesians 4:14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[1 Corinthians 7:23] Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
[1 Corinthians 2:5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[Mark 7:7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The bible does tell us that there will be a famine of the word of God in the last days and that evil shall be called good and good called evil. We are living in those days right now at this moment.
I cannot speak for God because God speaks for himself (I am only an instrument) and the entire world is in wickedness and darkness (of course, John said the same thing in 1st John 5) now after 2000 years the world is at the point of destruction by God because of the wickedness of man continually as expressed in Genesis 6 in Noah's days.
May God be with you all.
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As I said before the bible is so complex it's words of truth are inexhaustible and no man should be filled with pride where he thinks he knows it all.
The Apostle Paul always and again I say always spoke the word of God and whenever he added his own thoughts he always and again I say always told his audience or listeners that they were his own words.
And God himself allowed Paul to add his own words for our further enlightenment.
The bible cannot be generalized in anyway, and each word is just as important as the others for our perfection.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Don't you realize the noticeable absence of the word "only," as in "Scripture-only?" Nowhere in Scriptures do you find it claiming it to be the *only* source of truth for the Christian. It's purpose was to establish doctrine so as to avoid corruptions from without. It was never intended to be our *only* guide to truth in the Christian life.
As I said before, Scripture itself commends extra-biblical sources of truth, resident in Christian leaders, pastors, teachers, prophets, etc. who themselves know the Scriptures and have matured in the life of Christ. We are to learn from them, and not just from reading the Scriptures themselves!
Out of interest let me just tell you I was in a Christian cult for a short time. They did weird things like pray-read the Bible, suggesting that we open our minds, not focus on knowledge at all, but just pray-read each verse, repeating it each time with a different word being emphasized. It was so that the truth would immerse us like a spirit. All it really did was get us to focus on a false pseudo-Christian spirit, in my opinion.
Because my words are only incidental to my disseminating the bible I will give bible verses for your consideration.
Gal_2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
(Barnabas followed Peter into sin, by showing allegiance to a man, Peter. But Peter after confrontation by Paul and additional consideration corrected himself and went in the right way. How many people or leaders have the humility of Peter to correct their wrong thinking and actions)
Yes, this is a good example of how not to discuss and debate the Bible! I would agree--it's bad to argue with a wrong spirit, not wishing to edify, not wishing to learn, not wishing to be corrected.
Peter's mistakes are an example for us to learn to avoid pitfalls. Barnabas is a prime example of what I have been trying to illustrate in the past few days that I have been on this site.
I'm happy to see you on this forum. There seems to be an acceptable margin for expressing different opinions. This is an opportunity to learn how others think. Perhaps if they're wrong, you can help them see better. I just don't see how focusing Christians away from discussion helps?
We should learn from Peter and Barnabas that we're all flawed, and God loves us the same. Should give us confidence to try without fear of getting shut down.
[Colossians 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[Ephesians 4:14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[1 Corinthians 7:23] Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
[1 Corinthians 2:5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[Mark 7:7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
All good and relevant verses. Thank you.
The bible does tell us that there will be a famine of the word of God in the last days and that evil shall be called good and good called evil. We are living in those days right now at this moment.
As former Christian countries fall away from their faith, God does remove His blessing, just as He did to Israel when they fell away from the Law. But God never abandons those who are faithful to Him even in times like these. There's always something we can be doing for God, to testify to His love and truth.
I think we have enough in common to talk about these things. I hope you feel the same way?
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"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2Tm 4:2
The Apostolic admonition to a young pastor rests squarely on the scripture and includes all manner of leadership and authority. Nowhere in the NT do we find church leaders instructed to rely upon personal insight for the revelation of God's will for believers or unbelievers. Surely, personal insight is inevitable and often useful, but can never be the basis for revelation of God or His will.
As previously cited, the NT places the believer into the church, wherein he/she is called to play a role in manifesting the truth of the Gospel to the world.
My time on Earth, as a believer, is centered on allegiance to the Body of Christ.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2Tm 3:16
It is clearly a troubling sign of these times that believers are increasingly encouraged to hold the assembly at a distance, or to distrust churches in lieu of personal insights or theological interpretations. This is also a trend pushed consistently on social media.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" 2Tm 4:3
EDIT: Perhaps this post might serve as example of one expressing his view but only on the basis of inerrant, contextual scriptural instruction.
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I agree. Declaring biblical truth is the same thing Paul did as an apostle. He relied on his understanding of previous revelation, contained in the Jewish Scriptures, and coupled that together with personal insight. He had no problem declaring certain fundamental truths glaringly apparent from previous revelation.
It may only be our opinion about what the Scripture is saying, but when it is very, very apparent we can with confidence declare something *is* the biblical truth! We shouldn't shy away from declaring something is true if indeed that's what is objectively stated in the Scriptures, opinion or not.
For that reason it is important to "submit ourselves to one another," recognizing that we all have different strengths from which we can benefit. To ignore all the tools God has given us from brothers and sisters is a sure recipe for disaster. We'll end up digging a hole for ourselves, with nobody else around to pull us out!
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Be careful.
Paul clearly declared that his revelation of the Gospel was directly from Jesus himself and not the result of any consultation or reliance on any man. It was not "personal insight," or as Paul said, "cunningly crafted arguments of men." Paul did, indeed, turn the Old Testament scriptures and the contemporary interpretation of the Law and the Prophets on their heads at times in defining and declaring the revelation he had received.
John likewise received direct revelation in the form of a vision and related that information, a much as he was allowed, to us in the form of the Apocalypse.
That being said, isolated hermit in the grove Christianity is about as far removed from the NT model as one can get.
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Indeed! To be clear, again: The Apostles were inspired and their decrees were commissioned by direct revelation unless stated otherwise.
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I understand your post and I believe that you would make a perfect minister in the local church of God.
I cannot refute anything that you have said, and will not contest any of it.
Galations 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
I do not make pronouncements for others to follow. God never called me to preach or even to teach. I have been called to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and anything I say at anytime is my own personal testimony of Jesus Christ in my life.
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I am not trying to cause an uproar here but God speaks to me constantly each day through his Spirit and I have no recourse but to motivate others to live a life consistent with what the bible requires of them. Not doing what I say because that is my own testimony but doing what the bible tells them that they ought to do.
No one can be me. Likewise I cannot be anyone else. God may not be speaking to others and that is OK. But each person has to examine themselves and be convinced of what it is that God requires of them, and then do it. To do otherwise would be hypocrisy.
1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The end result of all things spiritual is righteousness. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The bible states that everything results in godly love, the hallmark of a true Christian.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Love)
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It's good to be humble and have a handle on our own little role in this very large universe! I share your sentiments. We can only do so much. But whatever we do, what makes it powerful is God's word, when we live in harmony with it. Thanks.
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God does not expect us to be perfect. But He does expect us to have a perfect standard, upon which to rely. Christ is that perfect standard, who has given us his Spirit. And if we live a life relying on that Spirit, it proves that we have accepted him as the right standard of righteousness.
The Law of Moses was given to Israel to establish a relationship with God, but could not provide a perfect standard for righteousness, because it was administered through imperfect priests. Because of their human flaws, they showed that their own works were flawed, and that human death remained a hindrance to unbroken relationship with God.
Christ came to fulfill Israel's hope in an eternal relationship with God. His own flawless life was not threatened by sin and death, and he could offer us his Spirit as the basis for obtaining this eternal relationship with God.
Now that Christ has come, we have an example of righteousness that is free of the curse of sin and death. We cannot attain perfection on our own, but we've been given the opportunity to live in dependence upon Christ's perfect Spirit to show our preference for God's perfect standard of righteousness.
In accepting Christ we accept God's basis for an eternal relationship with Himself. And it requires not just that we accept how Christ has lived, but that we recognize that he gave us his Spirit so that we may live a life dependent on his Spirit.
1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
I agree that God does not expect us to be perfect. And that it is Christ our righteousness that we depend on.
But I do believe that the Law of Moses was and is a perfect standard of righteousness. That man was and is imperfect, and could not keep it, doesn't matter. The problem lies in that the law is a perfect standard for imperfect man. Thus finding man always guilty.
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