The Standard of Righteousness

[RandyPNW]

God does not expect us to be perfect. But He does expect us to have a perfect standard, upon which to rely. Christ is that perfect standard, who has given us his Spirit. And if we live a life relying on that Spirit, it proves that we have accepted him as the right standard of righteousness.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel to establish a relationship with God, but could not provide a perfect standard for righteousness, because it was administered through imperfect priests. Because of their human flaws, they showed that their own works were flawed, and that human death remained a hindrance to unbroken relationship with God.

Christ came to fulfill Israel's hope in an eternal relationship with God. His own flawless life was not threatened by sin and death, and he could offer us his Spirit as the basis for obtaining this eternal relationship with God.

Now that Christ has come, we have an example of righteousness that is free of the curse of sin and death. We cannot attain perfection on our own, but we've been given the opportunity to live in dependence upon Christ's perfect Spirit to show our preference for God's perfect standard of righteousness.

In accepting Christ we accept God's basis for an eternal relationship with Himself. And it requires not just that we accept how Christ has lived, but that we recognize that he gave us his Spirit so that we may live a life dependent on his Spirit.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

[Pablo]

I hope I see you in the kingdom of God.
I tend to differ slightly with your presentation of this topic.

Throughout the entire bible it calls for us to be perfect.
If you start off with the premise that it is humanly impossible to be perfect, you might just fall somewhat short, even though you will probably know it during the process.

But sometimes we can deceive ourselves based on the teachings of our church.

Of course it is only God who knows when our hearts are considered perfect as He does not look on the outer man but on the heart.

Now we should aim for perfection at all times as it is God, through His Holy Spirit that empowers us to be perfect and not we ourselves.

The Holy Spirit is underrated in this world and for the most part ignored and that is a very big mistake. God or Jesus Christ do not mince their words or exaggerate or pretty up things to sound nice.

What they say they mean and human reasoning plays no role in this endeavor. We are truly living in total darkness on this earth and many are going to be blind to that truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

[RandyPNW]

I hope I see you in the kingdom of God.
I tend to differ slightly with your presentation of this topic.

Throughout the entire bible it calls for us to be perfect.
If you start off with the premise that it is humanly impossible to be perfect, you might just fall somewhat short, even though you will probably know it during the process.

But sometimes we can deceive ourselves based on the teachings of our church.

Of course it is only God who knows when our hearts are considered perfect as He does not look on the outer man but on the heart.

Now we should aim for perfection at all times as it is God, through His Holy Spirit that empowers us to be perfect and not we ourselves.

The Holy Spirit is underrated in this world and for the most part ignored and that is a very big mistake. God or Jesus Christ do not mince their words or exaggerate or pretty up things to sound nice.

What they say they mean and human reasoning plays no role in this endeavor. We are truly living in total darkness on this earth and many are going to be blind to that truth because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Most likely we will meet up in Heaven, Pablo. All it requires is that we convert our selfish life to the nature of Christ's life, which is given in service to God, and not strictly to our own choices. All our earthly decisions should be informed by Heaven--not dictated but regulated.

By that I mean that God counsels us at every turn when we make Him lord. He shows us the way of love, and though we have many choices to freely make, we must ensure that it always accords with God's love.

Thinking we can be "perfect" in this is absurd. The Scriptures never assume we can be perfect--they only claim that we must adhere to a perfect standard, which is none other than the life of Christ. We can't be saved by adhering to partly good and partly bad standards--we require a perfect standard.

There is never any thought that we can be perfect in the sense of becoming "sinless." No, the word "perfect" has at least 2 or 3 different applications, which must be applied in context.

The way we are told to be "perfect" is not the 1st definition of "perfect" as a "sinless"  perfection. We could never do that.

Rather, we are told to adhere to a perfect standard, which is Christ. It isn't just about rule-keeping, but more, about adjusting our sights on Christ himself, through whom we receive the Holy Spirit. Apart from divine spirituality our rule-keeping is meaningless!

[Pablo]

I might still see you in heaven. But only God knows. Plus I do not know you well enough to know your state.

Our hope is our salvation. And the same argument, I suppose that you talked about as pertaining to perfection applies to Hope.

Hope is something that we can stake our lives on and not the hope that wishes for something.

I was a bit confused by you explanation of the word "perfection" as used by the bible.

I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own.

Jesus said something very important to Peter when Peter was inquiring about Jesus's plan for John. (John 21:22)

Jesus told Peter to mind his own business and also directed him to follow him (Jesus), that is to keep his eyes straight ahead not looking to the right or to the left.

Jesus also told John a similar thing (Luke 9:49), not quite so blunt, when John complained about another group casting out spirits, who were not with Jesus's group. Jesus told John to leave them alone.

Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.

The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.

[RabbiKnife]

So then preaching and teaching the Bible must clearly be against God’s plan?

[RandyPNW]

I might still see you in heaven. But only God knows. Plus I do not know you well enough to know your state.

Our hope is our salvation. And the same argument, I suppose that you talked about as pertaining to perfection applies to Hope.

Hope is something that we can stake our lives on and not the hope that wishes for something.

It's similar in the sense that the word "hope" has more than one definition just as the word "perfect" has more than one definition. I would agree with you that the biblical "hope" is not just a "wish." It is something certain that we expect to happen.

But "perfect" has nothing to do with wishing to be sinless. It has to do with proper alignment with God's cause--not perfect alignment as in sinless perfection, but "proper" alignment with the perfect Christ.

When God gave Israel the Law, He gave them a perfect standard to live by. But He knew Israel couldn't be sinless and perfect, and so He provided them through His Law means of adjusting for their imperfections.

They could apply the means of redemption, which is attention to the regulations of the Law, the sabbaths, the sacrifices, the temple worship, etc. This is the biblical means of being "perfect," meaning to not follow a false standard. Following a false standard of righteousness is not following the path of perfection.

I was a bit confused by you explanation of the word "perfection" as used by the bible.

There is massive evidence in the Bible that we all have sin, not the least of which is in 1 John 1. If we say we don't have sin, we make God a liar.

So if we claim we're called to be "perfect" in the sense of becoming "sinless," we should know we're off the beaten path.

"But the word 'perfect' itself means what it says," you say? Well yes, "perfect" applies to the standard to which we apply ourselves, and not to ourselves as having reached the state of perfection. We become "perfect" when we apply ourselves to a proper law. We are "imperfect" when we apply ourselves to a "fake law."

When Israel applied themselves to the perfect Law, they observed it to be "perfect"--not sinless, but compliant with the right standard.

The same thing applies in the NT. When we apply ourselves to the standard of the perfect Christ, we become "perfect" in the sense of conforming to the right standard. It has no sense whatsoever in terms of suggesting we've become sinless.

We just can say we're conforming to the right standard, to "perfection." We are on the path of perfection, but we ourselves are not yet perfect in the sense of sinlessness.

I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own.

Jesus said something very important to Peter when Peter was inquiring about Jesus's plan for John. (John 21:22)

Jesus told Peter to mind his own business and also directed him to follow him (Jesus), that is to keep his eyes straight ahead not looking to the right or to the left.

Jesus also told John a similar thing (Luke 9:49), not quite so blunt, when John complained about another group casting out spirits, who were not with Jesus's group. Jesus told John to leave them alone.

Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.

I agree that we each have our own path to walk. But plagiarizing the Church Fathers? Where do you get that?

It's wise to judge everything by our own experience with God. But to suggest others have their own experience with God but can't have any ministry to others is unscriptural.

We're called to edify one another. If you become an "island," and only consult your own thoughts, and ignore the warnings of others, you're going to be convicted by God as self-oriented, and not in submission to God or to anybody else. Dangerous.

The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.

Where in the Bible are we told that the work of Christian ministers is to be ignored except Scriptures themselves? The new-born Church didn't even have the New Testament! They had to go to the OT Scriptures for guidance, as well as to Jesus and his Disciples.

Really, I suffered a lot as a young Christian because I didn't have many spiritual mentors around me. Raising yourself can be an arduous task!

I had to look to books by spiritual authors. They were tremendous help at a time when I could've used a lot more. And truly, we need help even understanding the Scriptures properly. But yes, you are on your own little island. I suggest you expand your horizons a bit more?

[Athanasius]

Apparently the conclusion is that we each have to get our own truths from God directly and cannot plagiarize some Church Father's stuff or even our own Pastor's as our own because we will all stand before God alone on that fateful day.

The deceived are just as culpable as the deceiver and the reason why I am saying these things is because of the massive amount of quoting of other men's books and quotes that I have encountered on the so-called Christian forums. I really believe that this is ungodly. We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth.

And if two truths contradict each other? Where exactly are you getting this, starting to rub up against 2 Peter, view of revelation and Scripture?

Here I got a song for ya:

[RabbiKnife]

One’s subjective experience  is a lousy standard of judgment

[Athanasius]

One’s subjective experience  is a lousy standard of judgment

It's unfortunate the confusion between one's subjectivity and subjectiveness. The subjectivity of my experience with God is my own, but this in no way suggests that God has revealed to me truths about Scripture that wouldn't be true for others. The subjectivity is in the relation between God and myself, but that's as far as it extends. There is nothing subjective about any truth God reveals if what's meant by this is a kind of relativism.

Things like:

"I have my own understanding, and since it is God who gives us these truths I will not burden you with mine since you have already got your own."

Are a call to examine the Scriptures to determine a proper meaning of the idea of 'perfection'. It's not a call to retreat into insular relativism. The idea that, "We should never study any other man's work as the bible is sufficient and is the truth." is utterly destructive. It's postmodern, and self-refuting as such.

Hang on, I know what I'll do...

[Athanasius]

Ah, the land of theology. Arguments from Scripture required going forward.

[Pablo]

Where in the Bible are we told that the work of Christian ministers is to be ignored except Scriptures themselves? The new-born Church didn't even have the New Testament! They had to go to the OT Scriptures for guidance, as well as to Jesus and his Disciples.

Really, I suffered a lot as a young Christian because I didn't have many spiritual mentors around me. Raising yourself can be an arduous task!

I had to look to books by spiritual authors. They were tremendous help at a time when I could've used a lot more. And truly, we need help even understanding the Scriptures properly. But yes, you are on your own little island. I suggest you expand your horizons a bit more?

Hi Randy

It is strange that I believe that I was fortunate to not have been inducted into a church as a member because if I was, then I believe that I would now be parroting the many belief creeds that some one man or even a group of men concocted as being the truth.

Yes, I am living on a Island and it's the most beautiful thing ever in my life and I also know that even though I am alone, it is good, as Jesus himself endured much and was obedient to the very end.
 
Yes all good/bad things in this world must come to an end as this world is not our salvation, so to speak.

Paul himself was the prime example of getting everything godly from God and not from others, not even the other disciples (and he said so himself to make sure that it was known)

Now to be sure the Jews had the word (oracles) of God, but the Gentiles did not, and it was incumbent on Paul who got the truth, the new covenant, to pass this on to them directly. (The New Testament was not yet written) and thus they had to meet to receive this new teaching, a very complex thing as we can see from Paul's teachings.

In fact Peter warns us that many could lose their way by misunderstanding Paul's teachings which he characterized as very difficult to understand. (Of course with the Holy Spirit that is impossible if the true Christian does not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit)

I believe that the church today does not have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot be party to traditions and the like. Everyone say that they have the Holy Spirit only because the bible says so, but they don't because they are pushing Him out with the traditions and teachings of men.

I am not bringing another religion here, but am only stating my personal experience with God and his Holy Spirit.

Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.

Lastly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but merely expressing my experiences with God as it is God who does everything in the area of giving grace to those who would receive it (not in vain) and thus come to experience the mind-blowing truths that sets a man free.

I am submitting these 5 verses in regards to my post (The Standard of Righteousness) and there are scores more but these will suffice for now.

1John 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1John 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1John 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1John 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Paul’s reception of the Word of God

Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy

It is strange that I believe that I was fortunate to not have been inducted into a church as a member because if I was, then I believe that I would now be parroting the many belief creeds that some one man or even a group of men concocted as being the truth.

There's a lot of truth in that. We do tend to pick up the quirks and errors of even the best of our teachers. Those who have influenced me, though, may not be able to discern it, because I remain cautious, and stubbornly resistant to propaganda.

I prefer the inevitable embrace of peripheral errors, learning some important truths, than not getting important truths for many, many years on my own! That's what teachers are for--to reduce the time that would be spent learning on our own! We can always learn critical thinking, and gradually get rid of the flaws along the way.

Some people have called me "stubborn." We should be stubborn, and not overly pliable, holding onto something that seems right until proven wrong. I wish the Catholic Church had done that with Galileo!

Yes, I am living on a Island and it's the most beautiful thing ever in my life and I also know that even though I am alone, it is good, as Jesus himself endured much and was obedient to the very end.

God can keep you wherever you choose to live. I do like the serenity of spending time alone. I'm not particularly social, as you can probably tell if you read some of my posts.

 

Yes all good/bad things in this world must come to an end as this world is not our salvation, so to speak.

Now you're just stating the obvious and preaching to the choir!

Paul himself was the prime example of getting everything godly from God and not from others, not even the other disciples (and he said so himself to make sure that it was known)

Well, you have a point there! We must be sure that tradition doesn't get a hold of our ear before we learn to hear God Himself. Revelation first, and then we can tackle centuries of Christian theology. But the theology must not be neglected--it is a window into the world, which we must evangelize. They speak the language of a long history of traditions. And we must learn from the past.

Keep in mind that Paul had to go out to the desert as a young Christian to learn to hear God's voice for just a short time. Then he went immediately to those more experienced and learned in Christianity than he was. He went to those who had been close to Jesus and knew exactly what he said. Paul didn't expect Jesus to mystically explain everything he had said during his earthly ministry. And Paul certainly wanted to know that!

Now to be sure the Jews had the word (oracles) of God, but the Gentiles did not, and it was incumbent on Paul who got the truth, the new covenant, to pass this on to them directly. (The New Testament was not yet written) and thus they had to meet to receive this new teaching, a very complex thing as we can see from Paul's teachings.

Now I think you're reaching. You're trying to vindicate your "island's" point of view. You're trying to justify placing yourself in solitary confinement. You can open up those prison doors...if you want to. It's a dangerous world, but it's more dangerous being a spiritual hermit.

In fact Peter warns us that many could lose their way by misunderstanding Paul's teachings which he characterized as very difficult to understand. (Of course with the Holy Spirit that is impossible if the true Christian does not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit)

The warning Peter intended to give is to watch out for those who would twist Christian teaching to mean something corrupt. The lesson is to "study to show yourself approved of God," as Paul exhorted. He did not say just to study him/Paul, nor to just study personal revelation. Those things are truth, but the focus is on a personal relationship with God coupled with studying the word of God, along with benefiting from the instruction and exhortation of others gifted to teach.

Why do you ignore that part? I think it's very healthy to avoid an unhealthy "self-esteem" by submitting to others, and by learning to accept the flaws of others.

I believe that the church today does not have the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit cannot be party to traditions and the like. Everyone say that they have the Holy Spirit only because the bible says so, but they don't because they are pushing Him out with the traditions and teachings of men.

Now that's downright judgmentalism! Are you saying you've personally visited all of these millions of Christians you say are phonies? My own experience is 180 degrees the opposite of your view! I do see a lot of flawed Christians, who hold to traditional doctrines that I disagree with. But I also see them filled with the Holy Spirit, notwithstanding their imperfections and flaws.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come on perfect people--just obedient people. And we have not attained to full stature yet. The Holy Spirit comes to us to to help us attain to full stature, and doesn't wait until we've already arrived there!

Besides, traditions aren't always wrong. Paul spoke of Christian traditions that are reasonable. And these would include what some call "the sacraments" of baptism, communion, meeting together once a week, etc. There is nothing wrong with having holidays that remember Jesus' death and birth.

I am not bringing another religion here, but am only stating my personal experience with God and his Holy Spirit.

OK

Really the truths of God's word cannot be passed from one man's head to another but can only be revealed to each individual man by the Holy Spirit.

We each have our own subjective experience with God. But truth is objective and can, in fact, be passed from one head to another. The Bible says we each have a name that nobody else knows--that is our own personal relationship with God. But we also have a collective consciousness of God. If you've ever been to a large faithful church, you will notice in the worship time that everybody is conscious of God's presence in their midst?

Lastly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but merely expressing my experiences with God as it is God who does everything in the area of giving grace to those who would receive it (not in vain) and thus come to experience the mind-blowing truths that sets a man free.

I am submitting these 5 verses in regards to my post (The Standard of Righteousness) and there are scores more but these will suffice for now.

1John 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1John 2:26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1John 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1John 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Paul’s reception of the Word of God

Gal 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I memorized 1 John back in around 1972. It's one of my favorite epistles. And I agree with every word you posted from that book. However, you are slanting the meaning of John's focus on revelation to something very inward and private. We need to watch out for that kind of thing, as indicated here:

Col 2.6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness....
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

This is another book of the Bible that I memorized a long time ago. I  think God was trying to protect me from excessive focus on myself to the neglect of others. Thanks for sharing.

[Pablo]

I will make this short and only make one or 2 points.

Jesus never attributed Peter's understanding to himself but told Peter - God was the one who revealed it to you. Jesus brought the message from God but it was God who worked in Peter's heart for him to know.

I will not rehash what we have touched on and I should say that our interaction although coming from different perspectives and with quite a few differences was quite peaceful and acceptable.

I will end with just one thought that just occurred to me and that is, I believe your perspective conforms to Jesus coming as the man of peace to save the world while my perspective conforms more to him coming as a judge to bring tribulation on the world.

Matthew 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

[RandyPNW]

I will make this short and only make one or 2 points.

Jesus never attributed Peter's understanding to himself but told Peter - God was the one who revealed it to you. Jesus brought the message from God but it was God who worked in Peter's heart for him to know.

I will not rehash what we have touched on and I should say that our interaction although coming from different perspectives and with quite a few differences was quite peaceful and acceptable.

I will end with just one thought that just occurred to me and that is, I believe your perspective conforms to Jesus coming as the man of peace to save the world while my perspective conforms more to him coming as a judge to bring tribulation on the world.

Matthew 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Well, I certainly am not set up to be vulnerable to Antichristian revelation! Furthermore, I don't even believe that Antichrist will come as a "Man of Peace." That's a regular talking point for those whose theology is largely "Dispensational." They often interpret the 70th Week of Daniel in Dan 9 as referring to a 7 year Antichristian Covenant. That certainly isn't my interpretation!

I see the 70th Week as fulfilled with the 3.5 years of Christ's earthly ministry, when he was "cut off." That completely fulfilled the 70 Weeks.

So there really is no other basis for seeing Christ's Coming as a "Man of Peace." The book of Revelation clearly sees Christ's Coming as a time of enormous judgment for the world. So I just don't get your characterization of our differences?

My whole recommendation to you was that you not look strictly inward in your spiritual development. As I quoted from Colossians, you should walk "as you were taught," and recognize that the "Head" distributes ministry to and through through the whole body. Paul taught that just as the body has a number of different parts, so the ministry of the leadership of the Church assumes several different forms, and is essential to the proper functioning of the Body.

I 100% agree with you that we must have a personal relationship with God, and get our guidance from our own consciences. Revelation is spiritual, and we must be able to discern the word of God as God guides us in His love at all times. It is in detecting the revelation of God's word that we can properly receive help from other Christians, particularly from leaders equipped to do so. We simply have to judge all things with a critical eye so that we receive the good and ignore the bad.

What I don't see from you is any recognition that Paul taught the manifold ministry of the Church, which involves a leadership class teaching and instructing in proper understanding of the word of God. We see imperfectly, and our vision is even more blurred in our youth, as we are quick to make assumptions and are guided by unnecessary fears. Stability comes gradually in life, and pride can be a serious obstacle to proper growth. I have no idea what level of growth you're at in your Christianity. I just wish to warn you, from personal experience, that if you turn inward too much you can make some serious mistakes. Take care...

[Pablo]

I really am reluctant to confront your belief system and will only in future give snippets of bible verses.

I am a Christian and I thought about going back over my posts to see where I might have gave the idea that I was anti-Christian, but that is not necessary as I know what I am.

Your last mention of Paul's teachings are of interest to me and I will just mention one point that I believe is of dire importance.

Act 20:29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 
Act 20:30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
 
Act 20:31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 

The point I want to make here is in verse 31. For 3 whole years Paul wept day and night, warning the flock what was about to happen to them.

The 3 years is very important because this was a prophecy and not just a mere sentiment or feeling shared by Paul.