Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[Fenris]

What are your thoughts on the best translation of the word in context? Slug1 offered 'exterminate' earlier in the thread.

I like "blot out" or even "erase". The same word occurs in Exodus 17:14 in a discussion about Amelek and the NLT translates it in this way- After the victory, the LORD instructed Moses, “Write this down on a scroll as a permanent reminder, and read it aloud to Joshua: I will erase the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

As far as the theological discussion goes, I have nothing to contribute as Jews don't see the afterlife in this way.

[Slug1]

What are your thoughts on the best translation of the word in context? Slug1 offered 'exterminate' earlier in the thread.

I like "blot out" or even "erase". The same word occurs in Exodus 17:14 in a discussion about Amelek and the NLT translates it in this way- After the victory, the LORD instructed Moses, “Write this down on a scroll as a permanent reminder, and read it aloud to Joshua: I will erase the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

As far as the theological discussion goes, I have nothing to contribute as Jews don't see the afterlife in this way.

Hey brother, our beliefs are very close in the following manner. As a Christian, per my posts throughout this thread, I believe God does separate those who don't believe in Him and this separation is eternal. I also believe "per" the many definitions i.e. exterminate, blot out, erase, etc... the element of God forgetting is actually, crucial.

Here is why, many say (believe) that a "loving" God will not torment unbelievers eternally. This "fails" to account for the fact that God does not "remember" them once they are separated from Him. God also wipes away "all" tears from those who are with Him eternally... they won't remember the unbelievers as well ( we are like-Christ).

[Fenris]

Hey brother,

Hiya! 

our beliefs are very close in the following manner. As a Christian, per my posts throughout this thread, I believe God does separate those who don't believe in Him and this separation is eternal. I also believe "per" the many definitions i.e. exterminate, blot out, erase, etc... the element of God forgetting is actually, crucial.

But belief in Judaism is less fundamental than one's actions. The bible has, by Jewish count, some 613 positive and negative commands. Belief would be only one of those. Obviously it's an important one. But if someone doesn't believe, or let's even say that they aren't sure, but otherwise lead a Godly life and does as God commands, this person isn't considered lacking.

This is different from Christianity, where the belief is considered more fundamental and obligatory.

Here is why, many say (believe) that a "loving" God will not torment unbelievers eternally.

I don't believe that God torments anybody eternally. No matter how bad a person is, they haven't committed an infinite amount of sin and therefore don't deserve an infinite amount of punishment. Forget about "loving", that wouldn't even be justice, in my perspective. Even Hitler in hell eventually is punished "enough", whereupon, I believe, his soul is destroyed.

[journeyman]

I know that you're making the comparison, and I'm asking where that comparison justified in Scripture? I don't know how to take what you've done here with 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as anything other than eisgetical. That's not what the verse is saying.

It says Christ destroys the wicked one by the spirit of his mouth,

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, Jn.6:63

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. Psa.18:8

It also says he destroys the beast by his brightness,

The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. Psa.97:5

Read 2Pet.3 concerning the coming of our Lord. He tells all evil will be set ablaze by Christ's coming. God is like a lake of fire to the unsaved.

Yes judgement, not punishment. You seem to be conflating the two.

Death is punishment for sin.

I'm pointing out that they are places, not people.

They're not places. They're states, or conditions of people.

Was Moses on the mountain toasty, or bright?

Moses was protected by God, like a Person who has the power to end someones life, but chooses not to.

[journeyman]

You just "piecemealed" severed "parts" of three verses. Doing such is literal twisting of scriptures.

Btw, here is a proper understanding of the use of "aion" in that verse:

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).

Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

Your piecemealing of scripture forms a "narrative" not aligned with the inspired intent of the Matthew scripture.

What I did is show how the term "forever" can refer a persons entire life. His past life.  It doesn't always mean living eternally like God lives forever or eternally.

Satan and the rest of the unsaved are tormented for the ages and ages in which their sins were committed. They don't go on eternally like God.

[Slug1]

What I did is show how the term "forever" can refer a persons entire life. His past life.  It doesn't always mean living eternally like God lives forever or eternally.

Specific to the torment after separation from God, it does mean evermore.

Satan and the rest of the unsaved are tormented for the ages and ages in which their sins were committed. They don't go on eternally like God.

For this statement to have validity, then that also must mean the "appointed day of judgement" has already occurred in the past.

[agnostic]

It says Christ destroys the wicked one by the spirit of his mouth,

"Breath" in this context, not "spirit".

It was common belief among apocalyptic groups that the messiah would defeat the ruling world power during the final war by using his words.

Called the "sword of his mouth" in Revelation 19. Called the "word of his mouth" in Psalms of Solomon 17. Called "a flaming breath" in 2 Esdras 13. Called a "conviction" in 2 Baruch 40.

In all cases, this is separate from, and precedes, the final judgment. Revelation 19-20 and 2 Esdras 7 each describe the punishment as a place of fire -- lake of fire and sulfur in Revelation, and Gehenna of fire in 2 Esdras -- that torments forever. 2 Baruch 51 doesn't mention fire, but says it will be torment.

[journeyman]

Specific to the torment after separation from God, it does mean evermore.

Interestingly, the unsaved are already separated from God, walking in darkness

For this statement to have validity, then that also must mean the "appointed day of judgement" has already occurred in the past.

No. It simply means the sins they committed in the past are brought to light on judgement day.

[journeyman]

"Breath" in this context, not "spirit".

As shown, it's the word Christ spoke to them.

It was common belief among apocalyptic groups that the messiah would defeat the ruling world power during the final war by using his words.

Called the "sword of his mouth" in Revelation 19. Called the "word of his mouth" in Psalms of Solomon 17. Called "a flaming breath" in 2 Esdras 13. Called a "conviction" in 2 Baruch 40.

In all cases, this is separate from, and precedes, the final judgment. Revelation 19-20 and 2 Esdras 7 each describe the punishment as a place of fire -- lake of fire and sulfur in Revelation, and Gehenna of fire in 2 Esdras -- that torments forever. 2 Baruch 51 doesn't mention fire, but says it will be torment.

Our Lord Jesus has already defeated the ruling world power by his resurrection,

 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph.1:21

He just hasn't destroyed them yet.

[Slug1]

No. It simply means the sins they committed in the past are brought to light on judgement day.

And the torment is experienced all before, or only during their judgement? I ask this because when I had no faith in Christ, I wasn't tormented by my sinful life. I also knew that all I knew who had not faith in Christ, were not tormented by their sinful life. Today, those I know who do not have faith in Christ, are not tormented by their sinful life.

[journeyman]

And the torment is experienced all before, or only during their judgement? I ask this because when I had no faith in Christ, I wasn't tormented by my sinful life. I also knew that all I knew who had not faith in Christ, were not tormented by their sinful life. Today, those I know who do not have faith in Christ, are not tormented by their sinful life.

Certainly during the judgement. Of course when we come to know our Lord we are ashamed of our sins. That's why people hide their sins.

But the unsaved do have some degree of torment now, because they have fear. They're afraid of other people. They're afraid of losing what they have. They don't have the peace of God that Jesus gives us.

[Slug1]

That's why people hide their sins.

I am part of a faith based recovery ministry, those "in" Christ... hide their sin and are thus, in torment. Those "not" in Christ, are not tormented.

But the unsaved do have some degree of torment now, because they have fear.

Care to provide example(s)?

They're afraid of other people.

If this is an example, I don't understand.

They're afraid of losing what they have.

What? Their worldliness? If I am correct, I would have to also disagree.

They don't have the peace of God that Jesus gives us.

Nor do many Christians until properly discipled and from discipleship, understand what "renewing" of the mind, means.

[journeyman]

I am part of a faith based recovery ministry, those "in" Christ... hide their sin and are thus, in torment. Those "not" in Christ, are not tormented.

When I was unsaved, I hid sin because I feared discovery.

Care to provide example(s)?

If this is an example, I don't understand.

Sure. John said,

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. 1Jn.4:18

And Isaiah says,

 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; Isa.51:12

Because people do fear what others can do to them.

What? Their worldliness? If I am correct, I would have to also disagree.

That's ok. Before coming to know the Lord, money was my life and during calamity, I worried about it. It's even worse if the person is wealthy.

Nor do many Christians until properly discipled and from discipleship, understand what "renewing" of the mind, means.

I agree. Christians need to think with the mind of Christ.

[journeyman]

A good example of what burns the unsaved is the two witnesses,

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Rev.11:5

It doesn't say their enemies are immediately killed. Jesus said,

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

It's the word of our Lord that burns up the unrepentant.

[agnostic]

That is an incredible stretch. You're inventing ambiguity where there isn't any.