Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[journeyman]

It doesn't seem to me that any human is immortal unless made immortal by God (clearly we weren't created immortal), but why wouldn't this make sense? In what sense would the unrepentant be in the presence of, say, 'the redeemed', given the two wouldn't be in proximity (the redeemed being located on the new earth and the unrepentant located...)? Unless you think they would be? If so, where and how?

The saved and unsaved will be before the judgement seat of Christ, where the sins of the unsaved will be made known. This is where the torment occurs.

Mind you, the implication that Slug1 - or anyone else, for that matter - isn't listening to the 'Spirit of Christ in [them]', and should perhaps forget about commentary (which by further implication is also contrary to the 'Spirit of Christ'?), is asinine.

False teaching can permeate any congregation. Is it your belief that over hundreds of years, teaching things about God that aren't true could never happen?

[journeyman]

Mind you, the implication that Slug1 - or anyone else, for that matter - isn't listening to the 'Spirit of Christ in [them]', and should perhaps forget about commentary (which by further implication is also contrary to the 'Spirit of Christ'?), is asinine.

Thus why I didn't address/respond to an emotional statement that is all about accusation.

I included myself in fallibility. I once believed in unending torment. I prayed about it.

[Slug1]

I cannot find any scripture that teaches obliteration in an annihilation meaning.

People in the flood were annihilated.

Negative, they were killed.

I know you didn't raise the point of the unsaved being tormented in Christ's presemce. I did. The location of torment is the presence of Christ and the unsaved won't exist there for eternity.

The scriptures say "after" their sins are made known and they are judged, they are then separated for all eternity apart for God. While I will agree that the facts torment them, scripture reveals the torment is eternal.

The meaning of vs.7 is that the unrepentant were annihilated. Anyone reading the story about the flood should have no trouble understanding that.

In the Hebrew the term is "wiped out" and in English, blotted out is translated. Has nothing to do with "annihilation." Blotted out in used for English so we can understand that they are permanently removed from the Book of Life... not about annihilation.

Do you have ANYTHING that can be read in support of this annihilation theology?

[Athanasius]

The saved and unsaved will be before the judgement seat of Christ, where the sins of the unsaved will be made known. This is where the torment occurs.

Is your argument that because no one will be before the judgment seat for eternity, it's annihilation ultimately rather than ECT (I myself am not a believer in active torment for what it's worth, but torment vis-a-vis the full - rather than partial, as now - withdrawing of God's presence)? Or is your argument that it makes sense for the unrepentant to be tormented for a time 'in the presence of our Lord, the holy angels and no doub the redeemed for eternity'? [sic] But not for eternity? But then why should we think that torment occurs before the judgment seat of Christ? That would make it more than the judgment seat would it not?

False teaching can permeate any congregation. Is it your belief that over hundreds of years, teaching things about God that aren't true could never happen?

Of course not. What's asinine is the suggestion that Slug1 has been duped into false belief as a consequence of his ignoring the 'Spirit of Christ' within him, and so too with these commentaries that don't agree with your position, which coincidentally just happens to be the position of the 'Spirit of Christ' within you. That is, what you've done is discounted the possibility of genuine theological disagreement and instead simplified to an either/or: either your position is the one we agree with or else we're rejecting the 'Spirit of Christ'. Or at least, not listening to the 'Spirit of Christ'.

Negative, they were killed.

That's the wrong approach, imo. What you have is the mass killing of humanity save one family and a collection of animals. What would you call the mass killing of humanity in any other circumstance? Extermination? Wiping out? Genocide? Annihilation? Armageddon? Those people were killed, but it was such a great killing that we could justifiably say that God annihilated all but one family of the human off the face of the earth in Genesis 7. Further, it's more annihilation than killing because those peoples societies, cultures, etc., were lost except in the form of whatever Noah and his family continued in our postdiluvian world. If the flood were to happen today I doubt anyone would say that God merely killed 7 billion+ people. That's apocalyptic.

But to argue from Genesis 6 to annihilation seems a stretch regardless.

[Slug1]

That's the wrong approach, imo. What you have is the mass killing of humanity save one family and a collection of animals. What would you call the mass killing of humanity in any other circumstance? Extermination? Wiping out? Genocide? Annihilation? Armageddon? Those people were killed, but it was such a great killing that we could justifiably say that God annihilated all but one family of the human off the face of the earth in Genesis 7. Further, it's more annihilation than killing because those peoples societies, cultures, etc., were lost except in the form of whatever Noah and his family continued in our postdiluvian world. If the flood were to happen today I doubt anyone would say that God merely killed 7 billion+ people. That's apocalyptic.

But to argue from Genesis 6 to annihilation seems a stretch regardless.

I personally "try" to keep as simplified as possible. Per the use of the Hebrew term in relation to v7, the best word in English is "exterminate."

[Jimbo]

I have a difficult time grasping why a God of love would torment someone in an inferno for eternity for living a short life span that's considered a 'vapor'.  That in my view just doesn't fit the likes of a just and loving God.  Especially when the word 'hell' isn't found in the earliest manuscripts.  It seems that the word 'hell' was added by the translators.

[Athanasius]

I have a difficult time grasping why a God of love...

A loving God also wouldn't force someone to be in a relationship they didn't want to be in. It's interesting how the relationship between God and God's people is so frequently expressed in terms of marriage. It's as if the divine being demands a response from the other. What would existence look like if God allowed someone to continue to exist while fully rejecting Him? Do you suppose that a loving and just God ought to impose Himself on those who want nothing to do with Him?

But anyway, you wouldn't be up for God-as-abusive-partner, or ECT or annihilation either presumably (because again that's an eternal consequence for a 'vapor' despite our lives having supreme eschatological significance), so your position is universal salvation, or something similar, or is it actually annihilation?

[Athanasius]

That's the wrong approach, imo. What you have is the mass killing of humanity save one family and a collection of animals. What would you call the mass killing of humanity in any other circumstance? Extermination? Wiping out? Genocide? Annihilation? Armageddon? Those people were killed, but it was such a great killing that we could justifiably say that God annihilated all but one family of the human off the face of the earth in Genesis 7. Further, it's more annihilation than killing because those peoples societies, cultures, etc., were lost except in the form of whatever Noah and his family continued in our postdiluvian world. If the flood were to happen today I doubt anyone would say that God merely killed 7 billion+ people. That's apocalyptic.

But to argue from Genesis 6 to annihilation seems a stretch regardless.

I personally "try" to keep as simplified as possible. Per the use of the Hebrew term in relation to v7, the best word in English is "exterminate."

And not a Dalek to be seen.

[Slug1]

And not a Dalek to be seen.

Well, this went over my head... please elaborate.

[journeyman]

Negative, they were killed.

Killed, exterminated, etc. are terms that can mean annihilated. The people that died during the flood were completely wiped out. Same with S&G,

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. Gen.19:24-25

That's annihilation.

The scriptures say "after" their sins are made known and they are judged, they are then separated for all eternity apart for God. While I will agree that the facts torment them, scripture reveals the torment is eternal.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the term "forever" can refer to a persons entire life before death. "Forever" doesn't necessarily mean eternally. And there really is no place where anyone can exist without God's notice,

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psa.139:7-8

The only place someone can go out of God's presence is not to exist anymore.

In the Hebrew the term is "wiped out" and in English, blotted out is translated. Has nothing to do with "annihilation." Blotted out in used for English so we can understand that they are permanently removed from the Book of Life... not about annihilation.

Do you have ANYTHING that can be read in support of this annihilation theology?

Being removed from the Book of life shows that there is no more hope of life. Death is "cast into the lake of fire, that is, the presence of Christ because it doesn't exist anymore.

[journeyman]

Is your argument that because no one will be before the judgment seat for eternity, it's annihilation ultimately rather than ECT (I myself am not a believer in active torment for what it's worth, but torment vis-a-vis the full - rather than partial, as now - withdrawing of God's presence)? Or is your argument that it makes sense for the unrepentant to be tormented for a time 'in the presence of our Lord, the holy angels and no doub the redeemed for eternity'? [sic] But not for eternity? But then why should we think that torment occurs before the judgment seat of Christ? That would make it more than the judgment seat would it not?

I believe that when we examine all scripture concerning the final state of the unsaved, the presence of God is like an annihilating lake of fire to them. Of course there will be torment at Christ's judgement seat, because unrepentant people fear having their sins exposed, but at that time there will be no place to hide.

Of course not. What's asinine is the suggestion that Slug1 has been duped into false belief as a consequence of his ignoring the 'Spirit of Christ' within him, and so too with these commentaries that don't agree with your position, which coincidentally just happens to be the position of the 'Spirit of Christ' within you. That is, what you've done is discounted the possibility of genuine theological disagreement and instead simplified to an either/or: either your position is the one we agree with or else we're rejecting the 'Spirit of Christ'. Or at least, not listening to the 'Spirit of Christ'.

Same thing could be said anyone, because either God allows never ending torment, or he doesn't. How far do you want to go with that?

[Athanasius]

And not a Dalek to be seen.

Well, this went over my head... please elaborate.

Doctor Who. The Daleks are known for their utterances of 'exterminate'.

If you'd like to tie this back to Genesis 6 - 7, then there's more of a connection between the Hebrew word for 'destroy' and the Dalek's use of the word 'exterminate' than there is in using Genesis 6 - 7 as an example of what will ultimately happen post judgement. If you'll accept such extreme cheek, that is.

[Athanasius]

I believe that when we examine all scripture concerning the final state of the unsaved, the presence of God is like an annihilating lake of fire to them. Of course there will be torment at Christ's judgement seat, because unrepentant people fear having their sins exposed, but at that time there will be no place to hide.

Interesting. What scripture equates God's presence with the lake of fire, and how does that work in light of, say, Revelation 20?

Same thing could be said anyone, because either God allows never ending torment, or he doesn't. How far do you want to go with that?

The point is to avoid making the claim entirely.

[Slug1]

And not a Dalek to be seen.

Well, this went over my head... please elaborate.

Doctor Who. The Daleks are known for their utterances of 'exterminate'.

If you'd like to tie this back to Genesis 6 - 7, then there's more of a connection between the Hebrew word for 'destroy' and the Dalek's use of the word 'exterminate' than there is in using Genesis 6 - 7 as an example of what will ultimately happen post judgement. If you'll accept such extreme cheek, that is.

I was sticking to how the Holy Spirit inspired Moses in writing and the Hebrew term given to Moses to describe the results of the flood upon mankind and animals.

[Athanasius]

And not a Dalek to be seen.

Well, this went over my head... please elaborate.

Doctor Who. The Daleks are known for their utterances of 'exterminate'.

If you'd like to tie this back to Genesis 6 - 7, then there's more of a connection between the Hebrew word for 'destroy' and the Dalek's use of the word 'exterminate' than there is in using Genesis 6 - 7 as an example of what will ultimately happen post judgement. If you'll accept such extreme cheek, that is.

I was sticking to how the Holy Spirit inspired Moses in writing and the Hebrew term given to Moses to describe the results of the flood upon mankind and animals.

Yes, and the word used is not translated as 'annihilation'. That's a word we'd impose in reading the text. Or something like that is what I'd imagine you're getting at?