The Messiah

[journeyman]

He was prophesied to defeat the enemies of Gods people and teach everyone about God. This is what our great Lord Jesus did and continues to do.

[agnostic]

He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?

[journeyman]

By his grace stemming from his love, which he demonstrayed and continues to show to the world,

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled Col.1:21

[journeyman]

He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?

I think it's likely you never understood the gospel. I sat in church for many years and didn't understand the true meaning of it.

Instead of condemning sinners, he turned the other cheek. That's the grace of God. You got a problem with that?

[agnostic]

I think it's likely you never understood the gospel.

It's been six days, and you decided it was a good time to come back and just... tell a lie about me.

Because I asked a question.

Which you didn't actually answer.

[journeyman]

It's been six days, and you decided it was a good time to come back and just... tell a lie about me.

Because I asked a question.

Which you didn't actually answer.

Actually, I answered your question the same day, about an hour and a half after you asked it, but you never responded.

[The Parson]

Easy folks. Play nice...

[RandyPNW]

He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?

God is still judging the world. He does so in many ways, whether by letting man's deeds come back on him, or by letting bad things happen to them, to correct them, or if necessary to protect others, to remove them.

God is, however, engaged in a process in which we get to decide, under duress, which way we will go, whether we will listen to our conscience or just pursue our own selfish interests with brute force.

Of course, the best way to go is to completely commit to Christ. But short of that, it is best to at least listen to our conscience, and make good decisions.

Jesus is not absent. As Deity he is everywhere. As man, he remains in heaven until the process is completed. He stands as a symbol before God his Father that he has redeemed us, if we commit completely to his ways.

Do you know of any nation or any individual who has not been humbled by the circumstances of life? The longest reigning Kingdom since Christ was, I think, a Christian Empire--the Byzantine Empire.

Great Britain dominated a fourth of the world--also a Christian kingdom. The U.S. began as a Christian country--the current superpower on earth.

As the U.S. loses its Christian majority, we see a decline in U.S. wealth and power. These things are not accidents.

[journeyman]

The Messiah patiently endured the violation of the law that was being committed
against him. Just as hos Father does.

[agnostic]

I hope I can respond with criticism of your answer, without anyone interpreting me as being offensive. I just really don't find this answer satisfying.

God is still judging the world. He does so in many ways, whether by letting man's deeds come back on him, or by letting bad things happen to them, to correct them, or if necessary to protect others, to remove them.

God is, however, engaged in a process in which we get to decide, under duress, which way we will go, whether we will listen to our conscience or just pursue our own selfish interests with brute force.

He is "judging" us by "letting" us do whatever it is we're already doing. His "process" is us deciding things. Your definition of his activity is indistinguishable from complete inactivity or complete absence. What you've said just talks about what we do.


What is he doing? Is he making decisions? Is he moving pieces into position? Is he doing paperwork? Is he controlling our thoughts and actions?

Jesus is not absent.

I know. I said he is "physically absent, but active in heaven". But all you've described is not his activity, it is our activity (your words: man's deeds, we decide, we listen, we pursue) or natural events (bad things happen). I am asking what his activity is. What is he doing?

Do you know of any nation or any individual who has not been humbled by the circumstances of life? The longest reigning Kingdom since Christ was, I think, a Christian Empire--the Byzantine Empire.

This is incorrect: Imperial Japan was the longest-reigning kingdom/empire in history, with most of its reign taking place after Jesus' time. The Byzantine comes in second, and I think that's if we make certain qualifications not every historian agrees on.

But... let's assume what you're saying is all theologically correct: the U.S. for example became powerful and rich because they were a Christian nation, and are now undergoing a "decline" because the Christian majority is shrinking. Where specifically is God active in this process? At what point in U.S. history did Jesus himself do something, and what was it he did? The whole argument hinges on the material wealth and power of the Christian nation, and we can easily point to the cause-and-effect actions of human beings throughout history that led to the U.S. being formed. But... what actions were God or Jesus undertaking in that chain of events, and -- crucially -- how do we know?

[agnostic]

The Messiah patiently endured the violation of the law that was being committed
against him. Just as hos Father does.

Does his "enduring" consist entirely of him waiting, watching, and not intervening in anyway? If this, then how is that indistinguishable from him being completely inactive, or even completely absent? If not this, then what active, direct, demonstrable actions has he done in the last two thousand years, and -- crucially -- how do you know?

[journeyman]

Does his "enduring" consist entirely of him waiting, watching, and not intervening in anyway?

No. It consists of Christ enduring the sins being committed against him, both then and now and continuing to show love to sinners. Of course, me personally, if I was the Creator and you spit on me??....you better kiss your rear end goodbye. I think our Lord did and is doing enough.

If this, then how is that indistinguishable from him being completely inactive, or even completely absent? If not this, then what active, direct, demonstrable actions has he done in the last two thousand years, and -- crucially -- how do you know?

I know because of his Spirit in me. Please correct me if Im wrong about this, but didn't you say somwhere that you used to be a Christian?

[agnostic]

No. It consists of Christ enduring the sins being committed against him, both then and now and continuing to show love to sinners.

Okay, but:

What does him "enduring" look like?

What is the manner by which he "shows love to sinners"?

What is he doing? How is his activity seen to anyone?

I know because of his Spirit in me.

This doesn't demonstrate anything. This is only convincing to people who are already convinced. It's subjective and unfalsifiable. It's a circular argument.

Please correct me if Im wrong about this, but didn't you say somwhere that you used to be a Christian?

Yes. It should display under my username that I am an ex-Christian.

[journeyman]

Okay, but:

What does him "enduring" look like?

It looks like this,

they began to accuse him Lk.23:2

That right there would be enough and if there's any integrity in you, you'll admit under those circumstances, you wouldn't put us with it either.

What is the manner by which he "shows love to sinners"?

Ive told you, he forgave them and does us also. And as I said, personally I wouldn't have. Now please acknowledge you wouldn't have either.

What is he doing? How is his activity seen to anyone?

I told you already, by his Spirit.

This doesn't demonstrate anything. This is only convincing to people who are already convinced. It's subjective and unfalsifiable. It's a circular argument.

Before I came to know the Lord, I wasn't already convinced.

Yes. It should display under my username that I am an ex-Christian.

Oh, that's where I saw it! Lol
[/quote]

[agnostic]

It looks like this,

they began to accuse him Lk.23:2

That right there would be enough

You're describing a specific occasion that happened while he was on earth nearly two thousand years ago. According to the gospel, he was standing in a room, surrounded by men, audibly responding to certain questions, and being slapped in the face.

I'm not asking what he did in 30 AD. This entire thread, I am asking what his activity in heaven has consisted of between 30 AD and now. Is he sitting on a throne? Is he writing in a book? Is he sending angels places? Is he talking to pastors, prophets, and saints? What is he doing? What action is he undertaking?

Ive told you, he forgave them and does us also.

Is he writing it down? Is he conversing with someone? I'm asking for something more specific than an abstract concept like "forgiveness". What hands-on activity is he doing?

What is he doing? How is his activity seen to anyone?

I told you already, by his Spirit.

This spirit is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and only known through subjective internal experiences, so this does not answer my question of what his activity is, nor does it answer how his activity is seen.