The Messiah

[Fenris]

And kooky perspectives of God's word too.

Every person who sees the bible differently than you do isn't on drugs.

I cited that verse to show there is no possibility of Confucius or Buddah or another gentile of being the Messiah.

And I cited the verse to show you that many people in history have been the subject of the nations of the world seeking them. And it didn't make them the messiah either.

Those verses speak of peace for those in God's holy mountain

"On", not "in".

And no, it talk about the wolf dwelling with the lamb. World peace. Not "inside" people.

because of knowledge that is spread worldwide and that has happened because of the Messiah.

Not what it says. "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." That means universal knowledge.

The Bible never says unbelievers will have his peace,
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: Mt.10:34

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27

This is not from my bible.

Jews and gentiles have always lived together.

Gentiles were never "exiled". You don't get to just hand wave away the numerous numerous times that God speaks of redeeming the exiles. This chapter:

He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah

Jeremiah 31 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

Ezekiel 37: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.

Amos 9: "...I will bring my people Israel back from exile.

“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
    They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
    they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
 I will plant Israel in their own land,
    never again to be uprooted
    from the land I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

Jeremiah 32: I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.

Deuteronomy 30: He will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you.

Jeremiah 16: Yet behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of Egypt.' Instead they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and all the other lands to which He had banished them.' For I will return them to their land that I gave to their forefathers.

Jereniah 23: Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands to which I have banished them, and I will return them to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and multiply

This obviously isn't talking about the nations of the world. It's talking about Israel. And it hasn't happened- yet.

And it does no damage to Christianity to admit these things. Again, CUFI and tens of millions of Christians in this country see these verses the same way that I do.



 

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.Isa.2:2-3

That you can cite this verse and ignore the rest of the chapter is so typical.

They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.

Has not happened.

Mind you, "all nations" (gentiles) doesn't mean every gentile, but believing gentiles from every nation.

When "all" doesn't mean "all".

It is occuring.

If you mean the modern day state of Israel, I agree!

[journeyman]

Every person who sees the bible differently than you do isn't on drugs.

And I cited the verse to show you that many people in history have been the subject of the nations of the world seeking them. And it didn't make them the messiah either.

And your belief that there's the slightest possibility of the people you mentioned beng the Messiah is ridiculous, as is your belief that Islam etc. could be right.
 

"On", not "in".

And no, it talk about the wolf dwelling with the lamb. World peace. Not "inside" people.

Gods holy mountain is the qualifier, not the world.

Not what it says. "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." That means universal knowledge.

The earth is already filled with the knowledge of God because of Jesus. Knowledge is only useful is people apply it.

This is not from my bible.

Sure it is,

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa119:165

Gentiles were never "exiled". You don't get to just hand wave away the numerous numerous times that God speaks of redeeming the exiles. This chapter:

He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah

Israel is the Prince who prevailed with God. That's the Lord Jesus and those who follow him.

That you can cite this verse and ignore the rest of the chapter is so typical.

They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.

Has not happened.

It has for those who believe the Messiah.

When "all" doesn't mean "all".

Right, not every individual on earth, but all who come to faith in Jesus.

If you mean the modern day state of Israel, I agree!

Oh no, they don't trust the Messiah.

[Fenris]

And your belief that there's the slightest possibility of the people you mentioned beng the Messiah is ridiculous, as is your belief that Islam etc. could be right.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "ridiculous". That's just a lazy way of debating. "It's ridiculous, I won't discuss it anymore". Ok...
 

Gods holy mountain is the qualifier, not the world.

I really don't know what this means. I'm looking for visible prophetic fulfillment and you're telling me it's irrelevant. If the prophecy hasn't been visibly fulfilled I'm not doing anything wrong by rejecting your assertion that it has already happened. 

The earth is already filled with the knowledge of God because of Jesus.

It's not though. Lees than half the world believes as you do, and even amongst yourselves you can't agree, even on fundamental topics.

This is not from my bible.

Sure it is,

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa119:165

This is a Jewish proof text, mate. Who loves the law more, Christians who think it's irrelevant or Jews who pore over it day and night? That's also a terrible translation, the word "מִכְשֽׁוֹל" means something like "to stumble" (see Lev 19:14, same exact word, verse reads "Do not place a stumbling block before the blind").

Israel is the Prince who prevailed with God. That's the Lord Jesus and those who follow him.

Again. The gentiles were never exiled. The Jews were. Now you're ignoring plain text. Again.

It has for those who believe the Messiah.

No, it hasn't. Nations still learn war. There's never been a nation that hasn't. Now you're denying reality.

Oh no, they don't trust the Messiah.

They trust in God. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you.

[journeyman]

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "ridiculous".

It's not a matter of my likes. What's ridiculous is your position there's the slightest possibility the Messiah is Chinese, or Islam is correct. That's what's silly.
 

I really don't know what this means.

It means you can be in the world, but not of it.

I'm looking for visible prophetic fulfillment and you're telling me it's irrelevant.

I'm saying the Messiah visibly defeated all his enemies and all of the enemies of those who trust him, both Jew and gentile.

If the prophecy hasn't been visibly fulfilled I'm not doing anything wrong by rejecting your assertion that it has already happened.

You're free not to believe the great Lord Jesus conquered death.

It's not though. Lees than half the world believes as you do, and even amongst yourselves you can't agree, even on fundamental topics.

That heresy would enter is no secret.  Your belief everyone on earth will follow God when the Messiah comes is also heretical.

This is a Jewish proof text, mate. Who loves the law more, Christians who think it's irrelevant or Jews who pore over it day and night?

The law isn't irrelevant and many of the Jews who studied didn't recognize the Messiah when he appeared. They still don't, because their theology is wrong.

That's also a terrible translation, the word "מִכְשֽׁוֹל" means something like "to stumble" (see Lev 19:14, same exact word, verse reads "Do not place a stumbling block before the blind")

I have no problem with this, because there is no stumbling to people who love God's law.

Again. The gentiles were never exiled. The Jews were. Now you're ignoring plain text. Again.

Gentiles living in Israel werent left behind at the time of exile, but we now know "the promised land" is the new heaven and earth, which all are exiled from apart from our Lord.

No, it hasn't. Nations still learn war. There's never been a nation that hasn't. Now you're denying reality.

The word translated "nations" also means "gentiles". I'm not learning war anymore. Neither are millions who trust the Messiah.

They trust in God. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you.

To trust God, but reject God's greatest Teacher isn't possible.

[Fenris]

It's not a matter of my likes. What's ridiculous is your position there's the slightest possibility the Messiah is Chinese, or Islam is correct. That's what's silly.

I just have a better imagination than you do, I guess.
 

It means you can be in the world, but not of it.

I don't know what that means, either.

I'm saying the Messiah visibly defeated all his enemies and all of the enemies of those who trust him, both Jew and gentile.

Jesus didn't visibly defeat anybody.

You're free not to believe the great Lord Jesus conquered death.

I don't think he conquered anything.

That heresy would enter is no secret.  Your belief everyone on earth will follow God when the Messiah comes is also heretical.

How is that heretical? "...the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

The law isn't irrelevant and many of the Jews who studied didn't recognize the Messiah when he appeared. They still don't, because their theology is wrong.

That has nothing to do with theology. The messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.

I have no problem with this, because there is no stumbling to people who love God's law.

I agree! And who loves God's law more than the Jews, who practice it every day?

Gentiles living in Israel werent left behind at the time of exile, but we now know "the promised land" is the new heaven and earth, which all are exiled from apart from our Lord

This makes no sense. When the Jews were exiled, literally, you point to the bible and say it's a punishment. Fine. But now that you want this good prophecy to apply to someone who isn't Jewish, the "exile" is metaphorical. This is playing games with the bible's words.

“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)

The word translated "nations" also means "gentiles".

No, it means "nations". In Exodus 19 God tells the Jews they will be a "holy nation" not a "holy gentile". In the modern Jewish vernacular it means "non-Jews", but that's not what it means in biblical Hebrew.

To trust God, but reject God's greatest Teacher isn't possible.

You say Jesus was God's greatest teacher. Obviously I have other ideas.

[Redeemed]

There are these things called faith and belief. I have faith because I believe that the gospel I heard was true. That faith wasn't beaten into me or argued into me. I heard, I read the word and I believed.

Just as Jews and gentiles did when Jesus and later His apostles spread the gospel of the New Covenant.

What did the apostles and early church do after they were born again? Did they rail at the Jews who didn't believe yet still congregated with them? No.
They spoke with love, sometimes forcefully I admit, but never condemnation and they never judged them as apostate or whatever.
Someone not believing that the gospel ( Good News ) found in New Testament Scripture is true doesn't diminish our faith and belief. Or at least it shouldn't.
If it makes anyone nervous, upset or even mad then I suggest they would be far better off spending some serious time reading the Bible and praying then arguing on a forum.

Just my 2 cents.     

[Fenris]

There are these things called faith and belief. I have faith because I believe that the gospel I heard was true.

No argument. You have faith that the NT is true. That is why you are a Christian.

[journeyman]

I just have a better imagination than you do, I guess.[/quote]Your belief Jesus isn't the Messiah is your imagination.

I don't know what that means, either.

It means God calls his people from the world of idolatry.

Jesus didn't visibly defeat anybody.

Thar's what people who said his disciples stole his body imagined. The Bible says otherwise,

I divide him a portion with the great.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death Isa.53:12

I don't think he conquered anything.

You imagine Isa.53:12 is about yourself.

How is that heretical? "...the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

The earth is filled with the knowledge of God because of Jews who knew Jesus.

That has nothing to do with theology. The messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.

Your misunderstanding is your theology.

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation,
A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
Whoever believes will not act hastily. Isa.28:16

There is no greater foundation than the one who conquered death.

I agree! And who loves God's law more than the Jews, who practice it every day?

You have it backwards. It's people who realize they've broken God's law every day and realize their need for his mercy every day that love his law,

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. Deut.27:26

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the sou Psa.19:7

There is only one Jew who practiced God's law every day and you don't know him.

This makes no sense. When the Jews were exiled, literally, you point to the bible and say it's a punishment. Fine. But now that you want this good prophecy to apply to someone who isn't Jewish, the "exile" is metaphorical. This is playing games with the bible's words.

There's no difference between Jews and gentiles. I understand the difference between correction and condemnation. Even the Messiah submitted himself to correction and he didn't need it.

“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)

And that's what he's been doing through the the Messiah.

No, it means "nations". In Exodus 19 God tells the Jews they will be a "holy nation" not a "holy gentile". In the modern Jewish vernacular it means "non-Jews", but that's not what it means in biblical Hebrew.

God also said,

I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11

His rest being the promised land. Therefore his holy nation cannot mean all Jews.

You say Jesus was God's greatest teacher. Obviously I have other ideas.

Well Fenris, he certainly has taught more people about God than any teacher you know.

[Fenris]

Your belief Jesus isn't the Messiah is your imagination.

"Anyone who believes differently than I do is imagining things" OK friend.

It means God calls his people from the world of idolatry.

I don't know what this means either. Deut 30 says that we have to make that choice, not God.

Thar's what people who said his disciples stole his body imagined.

To accept this means to already accept that the NT is holy writ. If I don't believe that the NT is holy writ, I don't believe this happened. The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to crate other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source. 

I divide him a portion with the great.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death Isa.53:12

And Jews believe that this chapter is about national Israel. Not the messiah and also not Jesus.

You imagine Isa.53:12 is about yourself.

Not me. All the Jews.

The earth is filled with the knowledge of God because of Jews who knew Jesus.

But it's not. A majority of the world doesn't believe as you do, so its hard to claim that "the earth is filled with the knowledge of God as the water covers the sea".

Your misunderstanding is your theology.

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23.

He made some pretty big promises that have yet to be fulfilled. And God doesn't lie. So we're still waiting.

There is no greater foundation than the one who conquered death.

Again, you believe that Jesus conquered death, because you accept the NT as holy writ. And that's fine. But for someone who doesn't accept the NT, there's no proof for your claim whatsoever.

You have it backwards. It's people who realize they've broken God's law every day and realize their need for his mercy every day that love his law,

Again is the glass half empty or half full? If I have done even one single good deed during the course of the day, I have created a world that is infinitely better than the world was before that good deed.

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. Deut.27:26

Let's look at some other verses from that chapter.

And Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Observe all of the commandment that I command you this day....

Moses and the Levitic priests spoke to all Israel, saying, "Pay attention and listen, O Israel! This day, you have become a people to the Lord, your God. You shall therefore obey the Lord, your God, and fulfill His commandments and His statutes, which I command you this day."

God is commanding us to follow the laws, not say that they're impossible, or some kind of a curse.

And on to the rest of the chapter-

The Levites shall recite to all the people of Israel in a loud voice:

 “Cursed is anyone who makes an idol—a thing detestable to the Lord, the work of skilled hands—and sets it up in secret.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who dishonors their father or mother.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who moves their neighbor’s boundary stone.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who leads the blind astray on the road.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his father’s wife, for he dishonors his father’s bed.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who has sexual relations with any animal.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his mother-in-law.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who kills their neighbor secretly.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

 “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this teaching by carrying them out.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

In Hebrew, it doesn't say "the law" but "this teaching" הַתּוֹרָֽה־הַזֹּ֖את.

It's not talking about the whole bible, it's talking about these specific sins that have been enumerated in this chapter.

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the sou Psa.19:7

Then we should follow it, not throw it aside. Psalm 119 is one giant love letter for the law. I suggest that you read it sometime.

Praiseworthy are those who keep His testimonies; who seek Him wholeheartedly.

Not only have they committed no injustice, they walked in His ways.

You commanded Your precepts, to keep diligently.

My prayers are that my ways should be established, to keep Your statutes.

I shall keep Your statutes; do not forsake me utterly.

Blessed are You, O Lord; teach me Your statutes.

In the way of Your commandments I shall run, for You will broaden my understanding.

Enable me to understand and I shall keep Your Torah, and I shall keep it wholeheartedly.

And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.

And I shall lift up my palms to Your commandments, which I love, and I shall converse about Your statutes.



etc etc etc.

Doesn't sound like a curse.

There is only one Jew who practiced God's law every day and you don't know him.

Again, this is only true if one already accepts the NT.

There's no difference between Jews and gentiles.

Yeah, there is. The Jews have a covenant with God, and one of the conditions of that covenant is that when the Jews fell short, they would be exiled. But God also promises that He will gather the exiles back to the land. You can't pretend that this isn't true, and it does no harm to your faith to admit it. CUFI is a big fan of this. “Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)

And that's what he's been doing through the the Messiah.

So is God gathering the Jews or not? Above you said it's not true.

God also said,

I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11

Has nothing to do with the verse in Exodus 19. You keep changing the subject, throwing things at the wall to see if anything sticks.

His rest being the promised land. Therefore his holy nation cannot mean all Jews.

That's talking about the generation that died in the desert. Yes, they never entered the land. But their children did, and remained there for what, 600 years? And then after a 70 year exile, another 500 years? And they're back in the land today.

Well Fenris, he certainly has taught more people about God than any teacher you know.

Well, he taught many people something. Whether it's true or not depends on what one believes.

[Redeemed]

Fenris - "The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to create other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source. "

The same be said for all of Scripture couldn't it? I believe every word of the Tanakh and every word of the NT of course. We all believe what we believe because of our faith and our conviction.

[Fenris]

The same be said for all of Scripture couldn't it? I believe every word of the Tanakh and every word of the NT of course. We all believe what we believe because of our faith and our conviction.

Yes. I agree 100%.

[journeyman]

Anyone who believes differently than I do is imagining things" OK friend.

Actually, it's anyone who believes differently than the Jews who proclaimed Jesus as Messiah is wrong.

I don't know what this means either.

It means God called Abraham from the idolatrous society he lived in.

The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to crate other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source.

Bias tends toward unreasonable judgement, but the NT authors had good reasons for what they wrote, the same way the Moses and the other prophets were unbiased.

And Jews believe that this chapter is about national Israel. Not the messiah and also not Jesus.

Not the Jews who wrote the NT.

Not me. All the Jews.

All the Jews didn't pour their lives out to death.

But it's not. A majority of the world doesn't believe as you do, so its hard to claim that "the earth is filled with the knowledge of God as the water covers the sea".

The earth is filled with all kinds of knowledge that doesn't help people who disbelieve it.

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23.

He made some pretty big promises that have yet to be fulfilled. And God doesn't lie. So we're still waiting.

His promises are fulfilled in Jesus.

Again, you believe that Jesus conquered death, because you accept the NT as holy writ. And that's fine. But for someone who doesn't accept the NT, there's no proof for your claim whatsoever.

People worldwide believing in God because of the Messiah is meaningless to you.

Again is the glass half empty or half full? If I have done even one single good deed during the course of the day, I have created a world that is infinitely better than the world was before that good deed.

People who know God have no desire to be judged by the standard of his law.

Let's look at some other verses from that chapter.

And Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Observe all of the commandment that I command you this day....

Moses and the Levitic priests spoke to all Israel, saying, "Pay attention and listen, O Israel! This day, you have become a people to the Lord, your God. You shall therefore obey the Lord, your God, and fulfill His commandments and His statutes, which I command you this day."

God is commanding us to follow the laws, not say that they're impossible, or some kind of a curse.

Jesus commanded us to follow the law, but that's not why any of us are right with God.

And on to the rest of the chapter-



 “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this teaching by carrying them out.”

Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”[/i]

In Hebrew, it doesn't say "the law" but "this teaching" הַתּוֹרָֽה־הַזֹּ֖את.

It's not talking about the whole bible, it's talking about these specific sins that have been enumerated in this chapter.

Concerning vs.27,

who does not uphold [the words of this Torah]: Here [in this curse,] Moses included the entire Torah, and they accepted it upon themselves with a curse and an oath. — [see Shevuoth 36a] (Rashi's commentary).

But you knew this already, didn't you Fenris?
 

Then we should follow it, not throw it aside. Psalm 119 is one giant love letter for the law. I suggest that you read it sometime.

Praiseworthy are those who keep His testimonies; who seek Him wholeheartedly.

Not only have they committed no injustice, they walked in His ways.

You commanded Your precepts, to keep diligently.

My prayers are that my ways should be established, to keep Your statutes.

I shall keep Your statutes; do not forsake me utterly.

Blessed are You, O Lord; teach me Your statutes.

In the way of Your commandments I shall run, for You will broaden my understanding.

Enable me to understand and I shall keep Your Torah, and I shall keep it wholeheartedly.

And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.

And I shall lift up my palms to Your commandments, which I love, and I shall converse about Your statutes.

etc etc etc.

Doesn't sound like a curse.

I've read it many times and it isn't a curse if understood the way the psalmist intended.

Again, this is only true if one already accepts the NT.

It's true regardless.

Yeah, there is. The Jews have a covenant with God, and one of the conditions of that covenant is that when the Jews fell short, they would be exiled. But God also promises that He will gather the exiles back to the land. You can't pretend that this isn't true, and it does no harm to your faith to admit it. CUFI is a big fan of this. “Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)

I'm not pretending anything. You're just not listening. And CUFI isn't pro Israel.

So is God gathering the Jews or not? Above you said it's not true.

Oh God is gathering Israel for sure. Just not how you imagine.

Has nothing to do with the verse in Exodus 19. You keep changing the subject, throwing things at the wall to see if anything sticks.

You're ignoring the subject. I showed how God's promises don't apply to unbelieving Jews.

That's talking about the generation that died in the desert. Yes, they never entered the land. But their children did.....

It doesn't matter. The story shows the truth of unbelievers being kept from the promised land.

Well, he taught many people something. Whether it's true or not depends on what one believes.

Gods truth isn't dependent on what any man believes.

[Fenris]

Actually, it's anyone who believes differently than the Jews who proclaimed Jesus as Messiah is wrong.

Which amounts to the same thing as saying "Anyone who disagrees with me..."

Bias tends toward unreasonable judgement, but the NT authors had good reasons for what they wrote, the same way the Moses and the other prophets were unbiased.

I don't think that any holy book is unbiased. Yes that includes books that I consider holy.

Not the Jews who wrote the NT.

Again, Jews wrote many books including "Das Kapital" and that doesn't mean that those books are correct.

All the Jews didn't pour their lives out to death.

I think you could use a few lessons in Jewish history. Millions of martyrs through history, many murdered by people claiming to be Christian. 

The earth is filled with all kinds of knowledge that doesn't help people who disbelieve it.

If it can be "believed" or "disbelieved" then it isn't knowledge, it's faith, which is something else entirely.

His promises are fulfilled in Jesus.

Well, I mean not yet, because even you guys are waiting on a "second coming" for them all to be fulfilled. So why is it wrong that I too am waiting?

People worldwide believing in God because of the Messiah is meaningless to you.

No, I didn't say that. Clearly Christianity has done a wonderful job in civilizing the world and bringing the idea of ethical monotheism to pagan barbarians. Everything and everyone furthers God's plans for the world. That doesn't mean that Christianity is correct however.   

People who know God have no desire to be judged by the standard of his law.

I know God. And I would rather do my best follow His laws, and ask for mercy when I fall short, then just throw everything He asked me to do aside and rely on His mercy.

Jesus commanded us to follow the law, but that's not why any of us are right with God.

Who said anything about being "right with God"? We follow the law because our Beloved asked us to. Shouldn't that be a good enough reason?

(Rashi's commentary).

Yeah. About that. You don't get to quote Rashi or any other Jewish scholar unless you agree with everything that they say. And you don't. You just found the one Rashi commentary that you like. And guess what? I don't have to agree with everything that Rashi says either.

I've read it many times and it isn't a curse if understood the way the psalmist intended.

Great! So we can agree that the law isn't a curse! This is progress.

It's true regardless.

It's faith, not truth.

I'm not pretending anything. You're just not listening. And CUFI isn't pro Israel.

The group "Christians United For Israel" isn't pro-Israel? Right.

Oh God is gathering Israel for sure. Just not how you imagine.

We need a laughing emoji.

You're ignoring the subject. I showed how God's promises don't apply to unbelieving Jews.

God's promises apply to Israel. The good promises and the bad promises. Or did He lie?

It doesn't matter. The story shows the truth of unbelievers being kept from the promised land.

Obviously they "believed". They heard God at Sinai.

Gods truth isn't dependent on what any man believes.

That's true. But that doesn't mean that you're right and I'm not.

[journeyman]

Which amounts to the same thing as saying "Anyone who disagrees with me..."

They cited the scriptures as taught to them by the Messiah. So you're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with God.

I don't think that any holy book is unbiased. Yes that includes books that I consider holy.

What a slap in the faith to those Jews who meticulously copied the scriptures.

Again, Jews wrote many books including "Das Kapital" and that doesn't mean that those books are correct.

Marx wasn't writing, 'Thus says the Lord." 

I think you could use a few lessons in Jewish history. Millions of martyrs through history, many murdered by people claiming to be Christian.

I'm aware of how God's people are murdered. You need a lesson in why the Messiah was.

If it can be "believed" or "disbelieved" then it isn't knowledge, it's faith, which is something else entirely.

Your view is what the world teaches, but the Bible says,

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: Pro.1:7

Well, I mean not yet, because even you guys are waiting on a "second coming" for them all to be fulfilled. So why is it wrong that I too am waiting?

Because the 2nd coming is the end of the Messiahs ministry, not the beginning of it.
 

No, I didn't say that. Clearly Christianity has done a wonderful job in civilizing the world and bringing the idea of ethical monotheism to pagan barbarians. Everything and everyone furthers God's plans for the world. That doesn't mean that Christianity is correct however.

Some have displayed the Messiahs teachings correctly some have done much harm.

I know God. And I would rather do my best follow His laws, and ask for mercy when I fall short, then just throw everything He asked me to do aside and rely on His mercy.

Who said anything about being "right with God"? We follow the law because our Beloved asked us to. Shouldn't that be a good enough reason?

I'm don't think people should throw the law aside. I think we should recognize it for what it really is.

Yeah. About that. You don't get to quote Rashi or any other Jewish scholar unless you agree with everything that they say. And you don't. You just found the one Rashi commentary that you like. And guess what? I don't have to agree with everything that Rashi says either.

My likes have nothing to do with coting Rashi. My point was your contention of what Jews believe. Personally, I believe Rashi didn't see the truth of Jesus as the Messiah because those who wrongfully proclaimed him by force. And I'll cite who I want thank you.

Great! So we can agree that the law isn't a curse! This is progress.

I agree that,

in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

The group "Christians United For Israel" isn't pro-Israel? Right.

Right. They're anti Israel as the Messiah taught.

We need a laughing emoji.

Well, when the Messiahs reign ends, only his followers will be laughing.

God's promises apply to Israel. The good promises and the bad promises. Or did He lie?

I simply pointed out promising the land to all, but then barring some from it is a paradox for you. It's no puzzle to me.

Obviously they "believed". They heard God at Sinai.

Of course they heard him. First you hear, then you believe,
 
Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Deut.1:32

That's true. But that doesn't mean that you're right and I'm not.

Take a good hard look at what Jesus said.

[Fenris]

They cited the scriptures as taught to them by the Messiah. So you're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with God.

No. I'm disagreeing with your opinion on who God is and what He expects from us. That's not the same thing at all.

What a slap in the faith to those Jews who meticulously copied the scriptures.

I'll say it again. I don't think any holy book is unbiased. Period. That includes my bible, your bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tripitaka, etc etc. Each is "true" to the people who believe in it, and less true for everyone else.

Marx wasn't writing, 'Thus says the Lord." 

So what? The point is that Jews can be just as wrong as anyone else.

I'm aware of how God's people are murdered. You need a lesson in why the Messiah was.

If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind. Of course, to a non-believer like me, he was just one of millions of Jews killed by the Romans in the first century.

Your view is what the world teaches, but the Bible says,

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: Pro.1:7

That's in my bible, and I happen to agree with it. That has nothing to do with what you're saying however.

Because the 2nd coming is the end of the Messiahs ministry, not the beginning of it.

ok, and so?

Some have displayed the Messiahs teachings correctly some have done much harm.

Fine, but again, that doesn't prove Christianity correct or incorrect.

I'm don't think people should throw the law aside. I think we should recognize it for what it really is.

The bible says what it is. Over and over and over again. It's what God expects us to do. Period. And I'm not going to cast it aside because a person, any person, tells me to.

And I'll cite who I want thank you.

And I'm free to ignore it.

I agree that,

in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

Yeah, So first of all, Psalms is poetry. I'm not deriving my theology from a poem. Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.

Right. They're anti Israel as the Messiah taught.

Unless I missed something, "Christians United For Israel" isn't mentioned in Jesu's teachings.

Well, when the Messiahs reign ends, only his followers will be laughing.

I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

I simply pointed out promising the land to all

The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!

Of course they heard him. First you hear, then you believe,
 
Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Deut.1:32

Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today,  born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.

Take a good hard look at what Jesus said.

I have, and remain unconvinced. So where does that leave us? Agree to disagree?