Prayer for the IDF

[journeyman]

But I'm a Jewish people. Why aren't you interested in what I say? Obviously because it doesn't conform to what you believe.

What you believe doesn't conform to what the Jews who wrote the Bible said.

But Jesus is the god of the Christians. Jews don't believe in him.

Don't be silly. If Jews didn't believe in Jesus, I would never have heard of him.

It isn't what the text says.

It is when the blinders come off.

Right. But you're a pacifist.

No. A pacifist is someone who doesn't believe in war. I see the war all around me and am a soldier of the Messiah in it.

Right, so you only believe Jews when it conforms to your belief. So it doesn't matter that they're Jews at all, actually...

I'm conforming to their belief. I didn't write the book. Hello?

So we can discuss mowing my lawn without Jesus coming up? Good to know, good to know.

Sure we can, unless you want to run your neighbor down with the mower. Then we'll have to have a chat about the Messiah.

[journeyman]

Fenris,
Did you ever consider how the Messiah suffered at the hands of sinners, yet continued to perfectly show the love and longsuffering of his Father toward those who mistreated him? Some people think there is a wide divide between how God is portrayed in the OT compared with the NT, but God is the same throughout.

Now we know how an ethnic group (the Jewish people I mean) that has been persecuted more than any other should show forth the love of their God and we have his Messiah to thank for it.

[Fenris]

Fenris,
Did you ever consider how the Messiah suffered at the hands of sinners, yet continued to perfectly show the love and longsuffering of his Father toward those who mistreated him?

Allow me to share some stories from Jewish history.

The leader of the Jewish revolt against Rome, Elazar ben Yair, gave a very stirring speech shortly before the Romans were to breach the walls of the Masada fortress, and they committed mass suicide rather than fall to the enemy-

“Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom.” (story cited by Jewish historian Josephus).

No bitterness, no hate, no regret. Just thanking God for what He granted them. 

A generation later, we have Rabbi Akiva. The Romans forbade teaching Judaism under penalty of death. And yet Rabbi Akiva kept teaching. The Romans arrested him and sentenced him to death in a most painful manner- by having his flesh torn from his body by iron combs. His students were present at the execution and asked him how he could be praying at that moment. He answered as follows: "All my life I was worried about the verse, 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength,' [Deuteronomy 6:5] (and the sages expounded this to signify), even if He takes away your soul. And I said to myself, when will I ever be able to fulfil this command? And now that I am finally able to fulfil it, I should not?" Then he said the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one"), he extended the final word Echad ("One") until his life expired with that word. A heavenly voice went out and announced: "Blessed are you, Rabbi Akiva, that your life expired with "Echad" (Story from the Talmud).

Rabbi Akiva wasn't angry at God for allowing him to be executed for the "crime" of teaching the bible. He was pleased that he had the opportunity to fulfill a precept of God- to love Him even unto death.

Closer to our own times, we have the following event-

The Jews of Kelme, Lithuania, were already standing beside the pits which they have been forced to dig for themselves- standing ready to be slain for the sanctification of God's name. Their spiritual leader, Rabbi Daniel, asked the German leader in command of the operation to allow him to say some parting words to his flock, and the latter agreed but ordered Rabbi Daniel to be brief. Speaking serenely, slowly, as though he were delivering one of his regular Sabbath sermons in the synagogue, Rabbi Daniel used his last minutes on earth to encourage his flock to perform the sanctification in a proper manner. Suddenly the German officer cut in and shouted at the rabbi to finish so he could get on with the shooting. Still speaking calmly, the rabbi concluded as follows:  "My dear Jews! The moment has come to preform the precept of sanctifying God's name of which we have spoken, to perform it in fact! I beg one thing of you: don't get excited and confused, accept this judgement calmly and in a worthy manner!" Then he turned to the German officer and said, "I have finished. You may begin".

(Story cited in Emil Fackenheim's book, "The Holocaust and the state of Israel: Their relation", page 213)

No bitterness, no regret, instead we have a community accepting that they're about to die, sanctifying God's name.

These stories are not unusual or unique. Jewish history is full of such events. To be a Jew is to be willing to make self sacrifice, up to and including the ultimate sacrifice- life itself. In this context, Jesus isn't unique at all.

Now we know how an ethnic group (the Jewish people I mean) that has been persecuted more than any other should show forth the love of their God

As a gentile I think it would be more productive if you spent your energy making sure that less Jews were persecuted. We've got lots of practice dying at the hands of those who hate us, and your instruction telling us to just accept it and not to pray for God's assistance is disgusting.

[journeyman]

As a gentile I think it would be more productive if you spent your energy making sure that less Jews were persecuted. We've got lots of practice dying at the hands of those who hate us, and your instruction telling us to just accept it and not to pray for God's assistance is disgusting.

I pray for God to make me more like Jesus and I find yoir contempt for his sacrifice disgusting.

[Fenris]

I pray for God to make me more like Jesus

Yes? You could start by feeling compassion for human suffering, as Jesus did. A long suffering people live under the cloud of attack from their enemies every day. Enemies who wish to murder every last one of them. And your attitude is, eh, Jesus died for mankind's sins, so it's all good. Read your bible.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. ( Colossians 3)

I find yoir contempt for his sacrifice disgusting.

No place did I express contempt. I simply pointed out that Jesus accepting his fate to die a martyr's death is not unique among Jesus's people, the Jews.

[journeyman]

Yes? You could start by feeling compassion for human suffering, as Jesus did. A long suffering people live under the cloud of attack from their enemies every day. Enemies who wish to murder every last one of them. And your attitude is, eh, Jesus died for mankind's sins, so it's all good. Read your bible.

I don't think you properly understand what "Jesus died for mankind's sins" means.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. ( Colossians 3)

Yes and the Messiah said to clothe ourselves with these things not only toward those who love us,

For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? .....And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?.....But love ye your enemies .....and ye shall be the children of the Highest.....Lk.6

No place did I express contempt. I simply pointed out that Jesus accepting his fate to die a martyr's death is not unique among Jesus's people, the Jews.

Our Lord only died the way he did to fulfill his word. If not for that, he could have destroyed his enemies anytime he wanted.

Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Mt.26:53

So, to have the power to destroy your enemy and not use it is disgusting to you. I don't think you truly understand the gospel or the God you claim to love. You do claim to love God, right?

[Fenris]

I don't think you properly understand what "Jesus died for mankind's sins" means.

I've had thousands of discussions with Christians on the topic. I understand what it means very well. And it has nothing to do with Christians living a Christ-like life. Jesus cared for human suffering, and instructed his followers to do likewise. Your comments about human suffering being irrelevant as a result means you may have read the bible, but you don't appear to have understood it's message.

Yes and the Messiah said to clothe ourselves with these things not only toward those who love us,

For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? .....And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?.....But love ye your enemies .....and ye shall be the children of the Highest.....Lk.6

Exactly. So when Jews pray to God for help against people trying to murder them, you should be supportive. Not rebuking.

So, to have the power to destroy your enemy and not use it is disgusting to you. I don't think you truly understand the gospel or the God you claim to love. You do claim to love God, right?

Again you put words in my mouth that I did not say. This is not a very Christian thing to do.

What I did say is that Jesus accepting the suffering that God placed upon him is not unusual in Judaism. And I provided examples that this is so.

[journeyman]

I've had thousands of discussions with Christians on the topic. I understand what it means very well.

Then you should have no problem explaining it. Please, explain it.

And it has nothing to do with Christians living a Christ-like life. Jesus cared for human suffering, and instructed his followers to do likewise. Your comments about human suffering being irrelevant as a result means you may have read the bible, but you don't appear to have understood it's message.

I never said human suffering was irrelevant. The Messiah not only cared for those suffering, but for those causing it.

Exactly. So when Jews pray to God for help against people trying to murder them, you should be supportive. Not rebuking.

The Messiah didnt pray for his Father to kill his enemies. If he did, we'd all be dead.

Again you put words in my mouth that I did not say. This is not a very Christian thing to do.

What I did say is that Jesus accepting the suffering that God placed upon him is not unusual in Judaism. And I provided examples that this is so.

No. What you did was compare the sacrifice of the Messiah to other people and I'm sure your claim that they had no bitterness or hate toward their abusers isn't true.

[Fenris]

Then you should have no problem explaining it. Please, explain it.

I'm not here to be tested by you.

I never said human suffering was irrelevant.

Yes, you did. Not in those words, but you most certainly did. You found it irrelevant that Jews pray for God's help in overpowering those who seek to murder them. Instead you chose to issue a rebuke for their doing this.

The Messiah didnt pray for his Father to kill his enemies.

And here's another rebuke. No place are Jews praying for anyone's death. I'll post it again, so you can read it.

He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan river valley, on the land, in the air, and on the sea.

May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers’ sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you.

And let us say, Amen.

No. What you did was compare the sacrifice of the Messiah to other people

I said it wasn't unusual in Judaism, and provided other examples. Why you chose to take offense at this I have no idea.

and I'm sure your claim that they had no bitterness or hate toward their abusers isn't true.

I have no idea what they felt towards their murderers. But they felt no bitterness towards God, which is the far more important point.

[journeyman]

]I'm not here to be tested by you.

I'm sure you don't understand the gospel.

Yes, you did. Not in those words, but you most certainly did. You found it irrelevant that Jews pray for God's help in overpowering those who seek to murder them. Instead you chose to issue a rebuke for their doing this.

I pointed you toward the Messiah, who overpowered those who sought to murder him.

And here's another rebuke. No place are Jews praying for anyone's death. I'll post it again, so you can read it.

.....may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces.....May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them.....

In other words, pray for the death of your enemies. Please, stop the double talk.

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers’ sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you.

Salvation is by faith in the Messiah, who defeated all his enemies and who goes with us to battle God's enemies the same way.

I said it wasn't unusual in Judaism, and provided other examples. Why you chose to take offense at this I have no idea.

Your examples are nowhere near the example shown by the King of the Jews.

I have no idea what they felt towards their murderers. But they felt no bitterness towards God, which is the far more important point.

Point is, the Messiah suffered injustice as God does every day and the Messiah loved his enemies as God does every day. I'm confident you don't understand the gospel.

[Fenris]

I'm sure you don't understand the gospel.

It's really irrelevant to this discussion.

I pointed you toward the Messiah, who overpowered those who sought to murder him.

Jesus was killed by those who sough to murder him. As I said, not a unique fate for a Jewish person, and I provided several examples. But when you take it on yourself to rebuke Jews who ask for God's help it shows that you are uninterested in human suffering, and it's difficult to reconcile this with leading a Godly life as the bible commands.

In other words, pray for the death of your enemies. Please, stop the double talk.

You have to show me where the prayer says that. More, you have to explain why it's wrong to ask God for help. You're very causal about this. Some ostensibly religious people are, and it's a horrible trait. A rabbi in the Warsaw ghetto asked a Catholic priest he was on friendly terms with to help save the lives of Jewish children from being murdered by the Nazis. The priest responded, "Today is Sunday, a holy day, and I will not concern myself with profane matters". Saving lives! Profane matters!

Beware the company you keep.

Salvation is by faith in the Messiah, who defeated all his enemies and who goes with us to battle God's enemies the same way.

In other words, human suffering and death are irrelevant. Yes, I understand you very well.

Your examples are nowhere near the example shown by the King of the Jews.

In what way were they falling short? Because you didn't like them?

Point is, the Messiah suffered injustice as God does every day and the Messiah loved his enemies as God does every day. I'm confident you don't understand the gospel.

And Jesus told his followers to try be compassionate and kind and relieve human suffering, which is completely unimportant to you. I'm confident you don't understand the gospel.

[journeyman]

It's really irrelevant to this discussion.

The gospel is relevant to every aspect of our lives.

Jesus was killed by those who sough to murder him. As I said, not a unique fate for a Jewish person, and I provided several examples. But when you take it on yourself to rebuke Jews who ask for God's help it shows that you are uninterested in human suffering, and it's difficult to reconcile this with leading a Godly life as the bible commands.

A Godly life is one which emulates the Messiah, who loves his enemies. You would know this if you loved the Father as our Lord Jesus taught.

You have to show me where the prayer says that. More, you have to explain why it's wrong to ask God for help. You're very causal about this. Some ostensibly religious people are, and it's a horrible trait. A rabbi in the Warsaw ghetto asked a Catholic priest he was on friendly terms with to help save the lives of Jewish children from being murdered by the Nazis. The priest responded, "Today is Sunday, a holy day, and I will not concern myself with profane matters". Saving lives! Profane matters!
Beware the company you keep.

I already showed where the prayer said it and explained why it's wrong to ask for God's help to kill our enemies. Your story about the Priest in Warsaw reminded me of the Messiahs teashing to do good on a holy day, which may include hiding people harm.

In other words, human suffering and death are irrelevant. Yes, I understand you very well.

You are incapable of understanding what the Messiah taught and to avoid having you continue to bear false witness, I'll end my conversation in this thread.

[Fenris]

The gospel is relevant to every aspect of our lives.

So again, does it apply when I'm mowing my lawn?

A Godly life is one which emulates the Messiah, who loves his enemies.

You make it sound as if this is the only thing of importance that Jesus did. As I have demonstrated, he also cared for the less fortunate and counseled his followers to do likewise. You treat this as irrelevant for some reason.

I already showed where the prayer said it and explained why it's wrong to ask for God's help to kill our enemies.

No, you have not. What's more, the prayer specifically quotes Deuteronomy 20:3, as commanded by God- When you are about to go into battle, the priest is to come forward and address the army “Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle with your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be alarmed or terrified because of them. For the LORD your God goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.”

You'll have to explain to me exactly at what point this went from being a command of God to sinful behavior.

You are incapable of understanding what the Messiah taught and to avoid having you continue to bear false witness, I'll end my conversation in this thread.

I'm bearing "false witness" by quoting the bible? OK.

[journeyman]

You make it sound as if this is the only thing of importance that Jesus did. As I have demonstrated, he also cared for the less fortunate and counseled his followers to do likewise. You treat this as irrelevant for some reason.

According to the Messiah, our enemies are the less fortunate.

No, you have not. What's more, the prayer specifically quotes Deuteronomy 20:3, as commanded by God- When you are about to go into battle, the priest is to come forward and address the army “Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle with your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be alarmed or terrified because of them. For the LORD your God goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.”

You'll have to explain to me exactly at what point this went from being a command of God to sinful behavior.

At the point when the Messiah gave us the correct interpretation of the passage you cited.

I'm bearing "false witness" by quoting the bible? OK.

By thinking I don't care about the less fortunate.

[Fenris]

According to the Messiah, our enemies are the less fortunate.

The less fortunate are the less fortunate. Someone might not be your enemy, they might even be your friend, and need help.

At the point when the Messiah gave us the correct interpretation of the passage you cited.

You know, the bible means what it says.  When you are about to go into battle, the priest is to come forward and address the army “Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle with your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be alarmed or terrified because of them. For the LORD your God goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.”

By thinking I don't care about the less fortunate.

Telling people that they are wrong for praying to God for help against people who are trying to kill them is not showing any concern for their well being.