Lemme see if I have this right

[Fenris]

Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Okay to pray ?

Many Christians have this funny habit of taking a verse out of context and using it to try and prove something. Why not quote the entire Psalm?

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
    when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
    we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
    our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
    they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

How can we sing the songs of the Lord
    while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
    may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
    if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
    my highest joy.

Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
    on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
    “tear it down to its foundations!”
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.

This isn't even a cry for vengeance. It's the cry of the dispossessed, the exiled, who saw the temple destroyed and their people subject to exile and murder. Are they allowed to express sad thoughts?

[ProDeo]

Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.

And does not God promise vengeance?


Deuteronomy 32: "...It is Mine to avenge; I will repay. "...The Lord will vindicate his people...

Romans 12:19 "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord."

I just read an article by a Jewish man in Israel whose wife and daughters were murdered in a terrorist attack. The terrorists walked up to the car they were in and riddled it with bullets. Inside the car was found a book of Psalms. Shattered glass held the book open to Psalm 109. What do you think? Is he allowed to ask God for vengeance for his murdered family?

Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us

[ProDeo]

Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Okay to pray ?

Many Christians have this funny habit of taking a verse out of context and using it to try and prove something. Why not quote the entire Psalm?

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
    when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
    we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
    our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
    they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

How can we sing the songs of the Lord
    while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
    may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
    if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
    my highest joy.

Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
    on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
    “tear it down to its foundations!”
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.

This isn't even a cry for vengeance. It's the cry of the dispossessed, the exiled, who saw the temple destroyed and their people subject to exile and murder. Are they allowed to express sad thoughts?

The bold remains what it is, revenge, not our cup of tea.

[Fenris]

Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us

So it's not OK to ask?

[Fenris]

The bold remains what it is, revenge, not our cup of tea.

Again ignoring the rest of the Psalm.

It's not revenge.

[ProDeo]

Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us

So it's not OK to ask?

Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.

Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5

38  “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,  let him have your cloak as well.
41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42  Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43  “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

[Fenris]

Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.

Yes. We aren't supposed to take vengeance. I don't have a problem with asking God to do it.

Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5

Yes yes this is all very interesting. "Turn the other cheek" isn't a Jesus invention, it's in the book of Lamentations. But I still don't have a problem with someone asking God to take vengeance. The guy whose wife and daughters were murdered by terrorists should not be expected to forgive and pray for those terrorists. That is a moral abomination.

[RabbiKnife]

So it's not OK to ask?

Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.

Yes. We aren't supposed to take vengeance. I don't have a problem with asking God to do it.

Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5

Yes yes this is all very interesting. "Turn the other cheek" isn't a Jesus invention, it's in the book of Lamentations. But I still don't have a problem with someone asking God to take vengeance. The guy whose wife and daughters were murdered by terrorists should not be expected to forgive and pray for those terrorists. That is a moral abomination.
[/quote]

Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.

That's grace.  It is the entire New Testament in a word.

And no, it is not comprehensible from a human perspective, only from the perspective of the divine and the price paid to satisfy the wrath of God.

[Fenris]

Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.

That's grace. 

I will reiterate my comment. This is a moral abomination.

[RabbiKnife]

Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.

That's grace. 

I will reiterate my comment. This is a moral abomination.

I understand your perspective.

It just isnt the ethic of the Gospel.  And is completely separate from the role of civil government.

[Fenris]

I understand your perspective.

Thanks.

It just isnt the ethic of the Gospel.  And is completely separate from the role of civil government.

This is separate from the role of civil government.

My grandmother passed away in 1974. I remember her as being a very sad person. Why was she sad? Because the Nazis murdered her entire family. She had 10 siblings, with spouses and children. One brother survived. Just one.

Should she have forgiven? Turn the other cheek? Pray for the murderers of her entire family?

The following prayer is said at Jewish services on Saturdays:

May the All Merciful Father who dwells in the supernal heights, in His profound compassion, remember with mercy the pious, the upright and the perfect ones – the holy communities who gave their lives for the sanctification of the Divine Name. They were beloved and pleasant in their lives, and even in their death were not parted from Him; they were swifter than eagles and stronger than lions to carry out the will of their Maker and the desire of their Creator. May our God remember them with favor together with the other righteous of the world, and avenge the spilled blood of His servants, as is written in the Torah of Moses, the man of God: “O nations, sing the praises of His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, bring retribution upon His foes, and placate His land – His people. " And by Your servants the Prophets it is written as follows: “I will cleanse the nations of their wrongdoings, but for the shedding of Jewish blood I will not cleanse them; the Lord dwells in Zion.” And in the Holy Writings it is said: “Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?’’ Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, the retribution of the spilled blood of Your servants. And it is said: “For the Avenger of bloodshed is mindful of them; he does not forget the cry of the downtrodden.” Further it is said: “He will render judgment upon the nations, and they will be filled with corpses. He will crush heads over a vast area, He will drink from the stream on the way; therefore Israel will hold its head high.”

[RabbiKnife]

I understand.

hence the great divide between Judaism and the Gospel.