Lemme see if I have this right

[ProDeo]

Yesterday in Church in a Bible group, 2 subjects I disagreed on, but I kept my big mouth, I want to be sure first. IOW, I can use some advice.

Topic - negative emotions and what to do about it. Excellent topic. We are using the book and videos of "Freedom in Christ". But I did not like the Bible passages they used for the conclusions.

Subject one - Psalm 109:6-15 - King David about his enemies :

 6 Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand.
 7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin!
 8 May his days be few; may another take his office!
 9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow!
 10 May his children wander about and beg,  seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
 11 May the creditor seize all that he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
 12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any to pity his fatherless children!
 13 May his posterity be cut off; may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
 14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
 15  Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!

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And the book stated, be honest to God, if you feel this way then just say it. If David could pray in this way and it became Scripture then so you can pray.

I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?

[Athanasius]

What do you do with your negative emotions if you're always censoring them?

[ProDeo]

Negative and forceful
        Anger
        Annoyance
        Contempt
        Disgust
        Irritation
    Negative and not in control
        Anxiety
        Embarrassment
        Fear
        Helplessness
        Powerlessness
        Worry
    Negative thoughts
        Doubt
        Envy
        Frustration
        Guilt
        Shame
    Negative and passive
        Boredom
        Despair
        Disappointment
        Hurt
        Sadness
    Agitation
        Stress
        Shock
        Tension

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Found these elsewhere.

I don't censor mine but (I try to) express myself as Christ has told us. The Sermon on the Mount is a good starting point.

[Slug1]

I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?

In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.

[IMINXTC]

Personal enemies vs enemies of the Kingdom.

[RabbiKnife]

As long as every prayer includes the Jesus caveat…. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done…

[tango]

I don't censor mine but (I try to) express myself as Christ has told us. The Sermon on the Mount is a good starting point.

There are good and less good ways of expressing things. Honestly I think prayer is a good way to express whatever you're thinking at the time.

I've heard it said the OT prayers often gave the impression the person praying wondered if God knew what was going on, whereas these days we tend to pray as if God knows what is going on but doesn't know what to do about it. And we get caught up in using the right words and not expressing our own doubts and fears and worries, not expressing our disappointments and even our anger at things that are happening.

I can't speak for others but for myself there have certainly been times when my prayers have been little more than "God, what the (bleep) are you doing right now?" when nothing made any sense at all. And in time some of it made sense, and some of it still makes no sense.

[ProDeo]

I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?

In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.

It's complicated, is it in compliance with ? -

1. The Lord's prayer -  and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

2. Rom 12:19 - Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Also -

3. And about David's prayer - revenge on innocent kids ?

4. Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Okay to pray ?

[Slug1]

I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?

In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.

It's complicated, is it in compliance with ? -

1. The Lord's prayer -  and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

2. Rom 12:19 - Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Also -

3. And about David's prayer - revenge on innocent kids ?

4. Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Okay to pray ?

I can say a single word and that word is, in English... "Justice"

Justice takes many forms and since justice is in opposition of the actions of evil doers, such prayers by the martyrs in heaven and David is a call out to God for justice. Vengeance is only "a" form of justice, "judgement" is another and as we find in the context of Romans 12 and 13, "punishment" being another form of justice, usually means putting evil doers to death.

Many evil doers have gone unpunished and many want to see justice happen... even Christians.

As for the Ps 137:9 verse, Isaiah prophesied about Babylon (... edit, which the Psalm verse references... end edit). Evil doers, captured the Jews, enslaved them, destroyed Jerusalem, and it is foretold they (Babylon) will be captured and as detailed in the prophecy, even their infants are not spared.

Well, from the "justice" perspective, evil is dealt with and punishment happens. Those overcoming Babylon, being used by God to free the Jews, are blessed in the eyes of the Jews.

[ProDeo]

I don't read justice in Ps 109 and 137, I read revenge. Justice is without high peaking emotions, like we do in our courts. Revenge is all about negative emotions. But that's just me.

Anyway, thank you all for your feedback, I will give this issue a rest and not start a discussion in Church next week, which was the plan.

Whatever the truth on this matter I am not going to pray like this. OTOH, I never have been in a situation of hatred, who knows, maybe my mind explodes when someone hurts my loved ones.

[Fenris]

wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant.

This verse requires context.

Lev 24: Then the Lord said to Moses: “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

“‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner:  fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.  Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.’”


It's not an open order to go around taking revenge. It's an order for the courts. And not just that, the Talmud picks apart the concept. "What if someone with one eye poked out another person's eye? If you poke out that guy's eye he is blind, whereas his victim still has one eye." So it was understood to mean just compensation, not vengeance...

[ProDeo]

Thank you Fenris.

How would you judge David's prayer in Psalm 109 (see the OP), as vengeance / revenge or as compensation? I mean, he includes innocent children.

BTW, I heard this old Dutch classic of the 80's on my radio today, with a part of Psalm 19.

[Fenris]

How would you judge David's prayer in Psalm 109 (see the OP), as vengeance / revenge or as compensation? I mean, he includes innocent children.

He's not saying that he's going to do it, or that any earthly court is going to do it. He's leaving it to God.

Mind you, he also hasn't named anyone specifically. So it could be viewed as a warning. "If you're wicked you will die early. And if that doesn't bother you, think of your children, left fatherless and wandering to beg for food..."

[ProDeo]

Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.

18 - You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. [Lev 19:18]

It's unclear who the enemies were, his own people or foreign countries.

[Fenris]

Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.

And does not God promise vengeance?


Deuteronomy 32: "...It is Mine to avenge; I will repay. "...The Lord will vindicate his people...

Romans 12:19 "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord."

I just read an article by a Jewish man in Israel whose wife and daughters were murdered in a terrorist attack. The terrorists walked up to the car they were in and riddled it with bullets. Inside the car was found a book of Psalms. Shattered glass held the book open to Psalm 109. What do you think? Is he allowed to ask God for vengeance for his murdered family?