The Battle For The Mind

[ProDeo]

Fair enough on the on the question of the existence of evil prior to any creations. Do you have any thoughts on anything from the bible that may prohibit such a possibility?

That would be speculation. I don't like to do that.

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. [Genesis 1:31]

We were even created very good, but even very good is not perfect.

Ha, yes, of course. I think perhaps I didn't word my question very well. My assumption was that you hold to the idea God has free will, could choose evil in principle, however his nature is such that he will not choose evil, though I realize now that you may not. I suppose the question that I should have asked is whether in your understanding of God, his [intrinsic?] goodness and the degrees of freedom he possesses as far as his will [free will?], God has the ability to choose evil, but will not due to some factor? If this is the case do you have any notions on what this factor is? Along that line, what prevents God from creating beings similarly with both free will    and this factor that would see them never actually choose it in practice even though they could in principle?

So your actual question is, why did God not create us perfect, like Him ?

[Oscar_Kipling]

That would be speculation. I don't like to do that.

Fair enough. 

So your actual question is, why did God not create us perfect, like Him ?

If you believe that God's perfection is what is required to have free will and to not choose evil, then yes, I suppose so. It may seem obvious to you that this is the case, but it is not obvious to me. In my mind it is not clear that being able to dance the finest possible jig, bake the maximally delicious apple pie, and sing the sweetest and most soporific lullaby possible are not features of God's perfection, nor is it clear that moral perfection is impossible without every other perfect attribute of God. That is to say I don't know that moral perfection isn't it's own distinct subcategory of perfection that is not contingent on perfection in every other way an entity might be perfect. Along that same vein, I don't even know what all perfection entails in your view, for instance I cannot tell if perfection in your mind is contingent upon all of the "omni" powers of God. It may seem to you that whatever your idea of perfection is and its implications are the default way that a given person will think of it, but I assure you that we are unlikely to be thinking the same way on this; or at least I do not believe that I can distinguish your view from the many others that I've encountered or imagined without more information. So, given that, would you mind elaborating on what you mean?

[ProDeo]

So your actual question is, why did God not create us perfect, like Him ?

If you believe that God's perfection is what is required to have free will and to not choose evil, then yes, I suppose so.

That's a good question then.

It may seem obvious to you that this is the case, but it is not obvious to me.

It's not obvious to me either, never gave it a thought.

In my mind it is not clear that being able to dance the finest possible jig, bake the maximally delicious apple pie, and sing the sweetest and most soporific lullaby possible are not features of God's perfection, nor is it clear that moral perfection is impossible without every other perfect attribute of God. That is to say I don't know that moral perfection isn't it's own distinct subcategory of perfection that is not contingent on perfection in every other way an entity might be perfect. Along that same vein, I don't even know what all perfection entails in your view, for instance I cannot tell if perfection in your mind is contingent upon all of the "omni" powers of God. It may seem to you that whatever your idea of perfection is and its implications are the default way that a given person will think of it, but I assure you that we are unlikely to be thinking the same way on this; or at least I do not believe that I can distinguish your view from the many others that I've encountered or imagined without more information. So, given that, would you mind elaborating on what you mean?

1 Cor chapter 2 comes to mind -

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Meaning, I can't go there. God is un-created, eternal, always existed. We are just the created, the loved created. So, I can't answer your question.

[Oscar_Kipling]

1 Cor chapter 2 comes to mind -

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Meaning, I can't go there. God is un-created, eternal, always existed. We are just the created, the loved created. So, I can't answer your question.

I do not see how your conclusions follow the verses you posted, but okay, thank you for your time.

[IMINXTC]

All speculation and guesswork - information unavailable to mortal man, who will often strive to somehow make the Creator culpable for what free-will creatures did and continue to do.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

[Oscar_Kipling]

All speculation and guesswork - information unavailable to mortal man, who will often strive to somehow make the Creator culpable for what free-will creatures did and continue to do.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

Have you personally receivethed things of the spirit that actually answered any of the sorts of questions I've asked here? Alternatively have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that you are incapable of understanding the answers to these question? Or have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that asking or attempting to answer these questions are of no value or are even deleterious to you?

Perhaps that series of questions itself are only answerable through some spiritual mechanism that I do not have access to? To your understanding is a Christian to avoid or suppress any wondering or speculation that they might do internally? To your understanding is a Christian to stifle or redirect any wondering or speculation that others might be doing for whatever reason? I guess I wonder what the margins are here, is there any distinction between curiosity and pathology and where is that line? or is it a personal conviction or conscience thing? is there any Christian precedent or tradition of anything of personal or community value coming from this sort of mental exercise?

[IMINXTC]

All speculation and guesswork - information unavailable to mortal man, who will often strive to somehow make the Creator culpable for what free-will creatures did and continue to do.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

Have you personally receivethed things of the spirit that actually answered any of the sorts of questions I've asked here? Alternatively have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that you are incapable of understanding the answers to these question? Or have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that asking or attempting to answer these questions are of no value or are even deleterious to you?

Perhaps that series of questions itself are only answerable through some spiritual mechanism that I do not have access to? To your understanding is a Christian to avoid or suppress any wondering or speculation that they might do internally? To your understanding is a Christian to stifle or redirect any wondering or speculation that others might be doing for whatever reason? I guess I wonder what the margins are here, is there any distinction between curiosity and pathology and where is that line? or is it a personal conviction or conscience thing? is there any Christian precedent or tradition of anything of personal or community value coming from this sort of mental exercise?

As previously stated, the attributes of God i.e. "God is Love," as clearly stated  in Scripture are eternal, and through Spiritual conviction the believer accepts them as true and needs no human rationalism to justify what he knows as truth. The Scriture is sufficient and declares God unassailable, blameless and loving

The Gospel is  an appeal to the conscience and without the reconciliation of the cross one will never be able to comprehend God.

It's a matter of the heart and intellectual reasoning, outside of revealed truth, will fall short.

[Oscar_Kipling]

All speculation and guesswork - information unavailable to mortal man, who will often strive to somehow make the Creator culpable for what free-will creatures did and continue to do.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 2:14

Have you personally receivethed things of the spirit that actually answered any of the sorts of questions I've asked here? Alternatively have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that you are incapable of understanding the answers to these question? Or have you receivethed things of the spirit that convinced you that asking or attempting to answer these questions are of no value or are even deleterious to you?

Perhaps that series of questions itself are only answerable through some spiritual mechanism that I do not have access to? To your understanding is a Christian to avoid or suppress any wondering or speculation that they might do internally? To your understanding is a Christian to stifle or redirect any wondering or speculation that others might be doing for whatever reason? I guess I wonder what the margins are here, is there any distinction between curiosity and pathology and where is that line? or is it a personal conviction or conscience thing? is there any Christian precedent or tradition of anything of personal or community value coming from this sort of mental exercise?

As previously stated, the attributes of God i.e. "God is Love," as clearly stated  in Scripture are eternal, and through Spiritual conviction the believer accepts them as true and needs no human rationalism to justify what he knows as truth. The Scriture is sufficient and declares God unassailable, blameless and loving

The Gospel is  an appeal to the conscience and without the reconciliation of the cross one will never be able to comprehend God.

It's a matter of the heart and intellectual reasoning, outside of revealed truth, will fall short.

Alright, I get that you believe things like the statement "God is love", and I get that you believe that you have some understanding of what such statements mean, and that this understanding transcends intellect. I get that this may cause you to feel no desire to question whether or not God is love or his existence or any number of things. Does that mean that you don't ever find yourself wondering about how any of it works as opposed to whether it works? Or is all of that covered because you believe , or as you    might say that you know that these questions are unanswerable so your mind doesn't even absently muse over such things because your spirit is so affected by this deep understanding faith and knowledge? 

[IMINXTC]

Oscar, from the moment I believed I have had peace with God and where I might not be able to articulate all the mechanics of His unseen purposes and actions I am incapable of questioning what has been revealed concerning
His afore - mention attributes.

I weigh everything  against what He has sufficiently declared, ultimately through the Cross of Christ.

If I remained in my unbelief I would be lost and in darkness now, regardless all the introspection and searching I knew.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, from the moment I believed have had peace with God and where I might not be able to articulate all the mechanics of His unseen purposes and actions I am incapable of questioning what has been revealed concerning
His afore - mention attributes.

I weigh everything  against what He has sufficiently declared, ultimately through the Cross of Christ.

If I remained in my unbelief I would be lost and in darkness now, regardless all the introspection and searching I knew.

I can't tell if you think i'm challenging the fidelity or some other aspect of your faith, or if you don't understand what I'm asking you.
Well, I'm not questioning your faith or how it has improved your life, I'm happy to take that for granted for the sake of conversation. I am asking if in the areas where things are not sufficiently declared you ever wonder how things work? While I can see how a question might conflict with your trust in God it is not readily apparent to me that any preponderance in this area is antithetical to your faith. For instance, Is wondering which birds God made first or if he made them all simultaneously inherently problematic? if so why, or is that in itself an unanswerable question? At this point I don't really expect that you will give me a straight answer, but I thought it was worth trying to explain what I'm asking once again. If this seems pointless or not worth your while I understand and have a good evening, I'm honestly getting pretty tired of this grind too.

[RabbiKnife]

I think there is an ii finite number of questions.

As I get older, and as I have spent vast quantities of time questioning the questions, I find myself inevitable drawn back to the same truth that Solomon reached in the final chapter of Ecclesiastes….

[IMINXTC]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I think there is an ii finite number of questions.

As I get older, and as I have spent vast quantities of time questioning the questions, I find myself inevitable drawn back to the same truth that Solomon reached in the final chapter of Ecclesiastes….

Well, don't just leave me hanging, what did Solomon discover in the final chapter of Ecclesiastes??!?!!? Did he find out that the evil emperor's enforcer was actually his father all along?


don't be mad its just a silly star wars joke.

[RabbiKnife]

I’m old enough to remember seeing that in the theatres opening weekend!

Read the end of Ecclesiastes.  The wisest richest man in history explores every human endeavor in detail and sparing no expense and his conclusion is….

The last chapter of Ecclesiastes.  Read it!!!  He sure had a handle on aging!

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

haha okay, my question was less about the specific example or if you knew the answer to it so much as I was illustrating the sort of trivial thing that you might feel okay admitting to ever wondering about... and it appears you either still don't understand what I was asking, or for whatever reason you just don't want to say. See you around.