The Battle For The Mind

[ProDeo]

In Church we were discussing a topic that until now had not much of my attention, it's about the level of influence the devil might have in our daily life.

In 1 Chronicles 21 we read -
1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.”

....

7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel.

So (as the text reads) the devil planted an (at first glance an innocent) thought in the mind of David, displeasing God and with big consequences if you read the whole chapter.

I am pretty sure if David would had known he was seduced by the devil he would rejected the thought.

So the devil himself can put lies even in Christian minds guarded by the Holy Spirit?

And secondly, the devil is a created being, not able to be at multiple places in the same time. Or we must believe there is some basic truth in the Screwtape Letters from CS Lewis billions of Wormwood's are trying to mess with our Christian minds.

[RabbiKnife]

Lewis is correct on that point

I think Satan and his ilk have milenia to learn how to influence humans

[IMINXTC]

In fact, armor is prescribed.

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.  Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.  Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.  Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph 6:10-18

[ProDeo]

So basically my musing in the last paragraph of this post (quoted below) could be true, because after all it was a lie.

One thought crossed my mind I am still not out, can the devil (the liar) break into your mind and put such a horrible thought (lie) into you? I doubt it because as we believe we have the Holy Spirit indwelling. But your mileage may vary.

[RabbiKnife]

If Satan could lie to Eve, he can lie to anyone.

Satan repeatedly lies to Jesus to tempt Him.

[Slug1]

So basically my musing in the last paragraph of this post (quoted below) could be true, because after all it was a lie.

One thought crossed my mind I am still not out, can the devil (the liar) break into your mind and put such a horrible thought (lie) into you? I doubt it because as we believe we have the Holy Spirit indwelling. But your mileage may vary.

I would look at this situation as satan putting a thought into Peter's mind and Jesus knew Peter's comment was not his own mind:

Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, [a]“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are  an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” (NKJV)

• a) Matthew 16:22 Lit. Merciful to You (May God be merciful)
• b) Matthew 16:23 a stumbling block

[tango]

A popular lie among some of the sillier charismatic groups out there goes along the lines of "we can trust God's power to protect us more than the devil's power to mislead us".

It sounds very promising but things don't work that way. I'm sure there's a good reason Jesus warned us of false christs and false prophets, Paul warned us to test all things, John warned us not to believe every spirit but to test spirits, and so on.

If we choose to ignore scriptural calls to test and simply follow anything and everything assuming God will somehow intervene to protect us from ourselves we're not going to end up anywhere good. It seems like a spiritual version of walking blindly towards a cliff edge assuming God will protect us from the effects of gravity.

Can the devil put thoughts in our minds? Probably. Temptation would seem to be the devil doing exactly that and if the devil was allowed to do that to Jesus there's no reason he won't be allowed to do it to us.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Is there a difference between lying to someone and insinuating a thought into someone's mind that isn't their own, but that they are unable to distinguish from their own? Do you mean that Satan can supernaturally place thoughts into a person's mind in a way that is fundamentally different than how a manipulative person might surreptitiously influence someone into coming to a false conclusion? On the one hand, there is a way in which injecting thoughts directly into someone's mind could be indistinguishable from Sci-Fi mind control, on the other hand there is a way in which this is no different than just being a persuasive liar. I really wonder which one you guys mean...or is do you mean something else entirely?


I think what bothers me most about this particular area of Christian worldbuilding is that it seems entirely unnecessary. At least according to some Christians, we are already wicked, fully capable of getting to any imaginable deception, self delusion, or motivated conclusion all on our own. In fact this is our natural bias and we tend toward the primrose path without any of Satan's maniacal inceptions. It is, at least to my mind, pretty strange then that in addition to our natural proclivities that draw us away from the moral ordinance that is inscribed on our deceitful hearts, that there should need to be a devil too to explain...what exactly? Perhaps it explains that feeling of having dark forces aligned against you, when it seems that your deceitful heart cannot explain the crushing notion that principalities are aligned against you. Even this though, doesn't really jibe well with me when deceitful heart in a Christian framework can only be meaningful in contrast to the will of God. Wouldn't then your deceitful heart working in contradiction of the most thoughtful and labyrinthine plan that can exist (God's Plan) give the appearance of concert and grand meditation if it is in every way in a contra point. A negative image contains exactly as much structure and detail as the original. If Satan didn't exist and our hearts were wicked nonetheless, shouldn't I expect that a Satan-like mirage would emerge from this fact alone.

 
Okay, perhaps I've missed some key factor, I'm an atheist after all. Just because I do not see the necessity of Satan doesn't mean that our nefarious adversary doesn't exist. Still, that isn't my only problem with this proposition. The idea that Satan can implant thoughts into our minds seems at odds with some notions about free will that I've come across in my Christian explorations. There is the idea that God will not engage in certain ways because he abhors the interfering with free will. To my admittedly untrained eye, directly implanting deceptive thoughts into the mind of a human teeters dangerously close to the edge of subverting free will. I suppose that it has been heavily implied that there are defenses against these dark arts, that if wielded correctly are 100% effective. Unfortunately the only human that ever has or ever will master this defense is Jesus who was also God. While technically a person could distinguish any and all thoughts originated from Old Scratch from those of more inert or beneficent sources, no one else ever actually will. Given that we are all susceptible and are incapable of actually using the armor of God perfectly, then how can it not be said that Satan can subvert the free will of people? 

[RabbiKnife]

James tells us clearly that when we sin, it is because we are led astray and driven by our own innate lusts.

Satan is also called the tempter, and the Gospel narratives make is clear that Satan tempted Jesus, personally, when Jesus was in a physically weakened state.

The story of the temptation of Eve in the Garden is clear.

As a counterfactual, we know that "greater is He that is in us that he that is in the world."  We know that "putting on the armor of God" is protection against Satan's temptations.    We know that we are commanded to "flee youthful lusts."

This goes right to the heart of the "freedom of the will" and its interaction with the "sovereignty of God" question.  Too many theologians and Christians over the years have tried to make that question binary, when the reality is that freedom of the will is perfectly compatible with a sovereign God that made us with a free will.

Very often, Christians want to blame Satan or say "the Devil made me do it" when the reality is that our sin is the result of our refusal to daily crucify our desires to the express will of God.

[Oscar_Kipling]

So, to be clear are you saying that the devil cannot make you do it? I mean I would tend to agree if external temptation is more or less the devil's only toolset, however when we get into the ideas of the devil implanting thoughts then I think its a tougher sell.

If the devil can inject thoughts into the minds of men, then to me it is at least conceivable that this level of deception can cause a person to act in a way that is contrary to how they would act under normal circumstances. If there is no limit to the amount or frequency of thoughts that he can inject, then what prevents the devil from simply overwhelming a mind? Is there some reason that Satan cannot create a wilderness of mirrors in a person's mind? Is the armor of God something that any man outside of Jesus has ever donned with perfect efficacy? If it is not then there is always a chink in this armor, one that God, Satan and man all know exist by our very nature. If you have donned the armor, do you have to constantly maintain it, or is it a one time deal? All I mean to get at is that the ideas that we're imperfect (even in our use of bound spirit armor) and that the devil can put stuff in your min...it is one thing to assert that there is some safegaurd in place that prevents this confluence of facts from playing out in a way that is perfectly logical and not expressly prohibited by the mechanics of operational facts. Are you just saying that god simply would intervene and not allow it to get to that point?

[RabbiKnife]

1.   I think we are close, and I think you are closer than many Christians.  No, Satan cannot MAKE anyone do anything.  Believer or non-believer, humans are (in my opinion) endowed by their Creator with free moral agency to make decisions, for good or for ill.  No human is a puppet or animatron.  If some external power can FORCE a human to do anything, then that is not freedom.

2.   As to “implanting” thoughts, then we get into the nebulous world of “what is a thought?”  Physiologically, a thought is nothing more than a particular electrical impulse (or set of electrical impulses) that originates in some part of the brain and travels to another portion of the brain, perhaps in myriad combinations, so I’m not aware of any purported power of Satan to manipulate electrons for his benefit.  That being said, Satan (and his minions) can and do lie to us.  That is clearly taught in Scripture.  He can, in some manner, communicate with humans.  I’m personally not convinced that such communication is except on rare occasions physical, unless of a particular physical manifestation like the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness.  The apostles tell us that Satan can come to us as “an angel of light,” in some sort of physical or metaphysical form in which he could speak.   I also believe, (and of course, cannot empirically prove), that there is a spiritual aspect of man-- call it metaphysical -- of which we know little but probably experience more than we would like to think or realize.  I believe that Satan can and does communicate or attempt to communicate with humans metaphysically, yet even his power there is limited. 

I am not certain – and I don’t think Scripture even addresses the issue – of how that metaphysical/physical connection occurs, but I personally am convinced that it is through the conscience of humans that the non-corporeal (metaphysical) and the corporeal (physical) interact.  Whether a “thought” originates with Satan in the metaphysical realm or not, at some point, my physical brain is responsible for processing information from whatever source or impetus and to determine what actions to take based on or in opposition to that impulse.  For the believer, that response or action is – of course – supposed to be controlled by the Holy Spirit and our submission to Him. 

3.   The entire point of a free will is the ability to refuse to respond to stimuli, whether that stimuli be cultural, internal, physical, or metaphysical.  Otherwise, it isn’t free moral agency if someone else can control it.

4.   As to the armor of God, I think that I should have you teach my Sunday School class!  You seem to understand the concept more than many that sit in church week after weak (spelling intentional).  The great lie related to Christianity is that is a once and done, purely transactional engagement, (trading my sin for Jesus sacrifice, which is a transaction) when the reality is that the transaction of faith and submitting to Jesus at the moment of conversion/new birth/ adoption is an actual transaction but only the first step in a lifelong relationship marked by growth and, in particular, by increase knowledge of and submission to the Holy Spirit.  The armor of God is neither a physical nor metaphysical “thing,” but a metaphor or illustration for the various ways in which we must submit to God in every aspect of our life, and to be dependent on the Holy Spirit to survive the destruction that Satan wants for the believer.  The picture is one of a soldier daily preparing for war and being ever vigilant against temptation and Satan’s attacks (Remember, when Paul wrote that, he was sitting in a Roman prison surrounded by Roman soldiers, so he had some pretty good source material to use).  The armor of God is not a ritual, or a magic formula or a talisman, although sadly many Christians act like it is.

5.   God doesn’t stop humans from sinning.  But, Scripture does teach that with EVERY temptation God makes sure there is a way of escape.  In other words, humans do not HAVE to succumb to temptation, but escape is sometimes difficult, painful, and requires effort.  Believers sin, sadly, because just like non-believers, we like the way it makes us feel.

Excellent question.

[IMINXTC]

And it's obvious Satan and his cohorts are finely tuned judges of human character, quite able to play on weaknesses. It's probable that David was at least vulnerable in one area and it only took a a sublimal nudge to enhance those thoughts.

Difficult to imagine that dark angels are not quite fluent in the mental suggestion, depending on how far they can influence any individual and I believe they are
constantly at work in the human mind.

[Fenris]

God doesn’t stop humans from sinning.  But, Scripture does teach that with EVERY temptation God makes sure there is a way of escape.  In other words, humans do not HAVE to succumb to temptation, but escape is sometimes difficult, painful, and requires effort.  Believers sin, sadly, because just like non-believers, we like the way it makes us feel.

Genesis 4:7 "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

[Oscar_Kipling]

Agency in response to stimuli is a very concise description of free will, though in my mind it does sort of sidestep the issue of delusions and deceptions. It is one thing to react to an implanted thought like "You can't trust God to help you out of this one because the thing you did is too disgusting for forgiveness" is for me a different proposition than "Your girlfriend has been replaced with a clone that is slowly poisoning you with tiny amounts barium acetate in your orange juice every morning". I'm not saying necessarily that one is easier to deal with than the other; however outside of it being a kind of quintessential arch devil move there is at least biblical precedence for refuting the first one. Getting blasted with permutations of this idea could be deleterious to your faith if you allowed it, but I do see the way out and therefore I can see how one can be held responsible.

On the other hand, undermining your trust in your social support system, intimate relationships, and reality itself seems to me a more difficult thing to defend against, if only because there are so many ways to distort the perception and interpretation of stimuli to the point where it can be argued that it is inappropriate to assert that a person is reacting to the stimuli itself at all. It should not be at all difficult to imagine (or recall) the vertiginous expirience of watching folks expirience the same stimuli and react completely differently because their interpretations of that stimuli are entirely divorced from your own. The way stimuli interact with our thoughts is at least a component of perception, and perception is a main influencer of action. Dissociating a person from reality by influencing or straight out implanting thoughts makes  the idea of responsibility and defense a much less cut and dried proposition.

It is reasonable to consider the limits and exact mechanics of the devil's ability to affect perceptions when speculating about the intersection of free will and devilry. That said even if we limited Beezlebub's powers to what a human could do, except that he's invisible and can pass through walls and stuff I would be hard pressed to always hold people responsible for what could essentially be described as a supernatural case of paranoid psychosis. In the same way that I'm hard pressed to hold everyone responsible for actions taken after having been abused and manipulated by regular old humans. Is that free will in any meaningful way? I do not see why there is not the possibility for a person to both be used as a tool for the devil acting in opposition to God's will and be completely free of responsibility for it...that is outside of some assertion that God would not allow such a thing to happen. Is it simply a matter of faith that God will always provide an escape hatch?

Idk, I guess I'm just ultimately unsatisfied with the idea that there is  supposed to be a system in place that overlays natural human foibles that provides an additional layer of persecution, but it is limited only by some minimum legibility of the solution...I don't think its obnoxious to ask, like for what though? Or to put it another way, what would be different if there was no Satan?

[ProDeo]

Idk, I guess I'm just ultimately unsatisfied with the idea that there is  supposed to be a system in place that overlays natural human foibles that provides an additional layer of persecution, but it is limited only by some minimum legibility of the solution...I don't think its obnoxious to ask, like for what though? Or to put it another way, what would be different if there was no Satan?

An atheist internet friend once said to me, I see not much evidence for God, however I do see plenty of evidence for the devil.