Excuses for fakes

[DavidGYoung]

When I was a Christian, this is the type of person I would have openly called a fake before any of the scandals had emerged:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67749215

Here are some of the responses I would have got, based on what London Bible College (now London School of Theology) students/staff and various British Evangelical/Charismatic churches/house-group members said about other fakes (e.g. John Wimber, the Kansas City Fellowship etc.):

Wait until you are older before saying anything about this.
Wait until you are married before saying anything about this.
You wouldn't understand because you haven't got the Holy Spirit in you.
The Devil must really like to see Christians argue like this.
Christian 28~A7_B has BEEEEEEEEEEN to Nigeria and you HAVEN'T! You wait until YOU have been to Nigeria before you say anything critical about this MAN OF GOD!
You shouldn't use your intellect. You should only use your heart. I'll pray for you.
You're just being liberal.
This is a sign that we are living in the end times because the Devil is persecuting the true PEOPLE OF GOD!
Let me thrust this Bible verse at you and run off. I'll pray for you.

What other excuses have you heard and would you have called out this man to begin with?

[RabbiKnife]

1.  I saw that article this morning and wasn't surprised.  That could be South Africa, Korea, Kansas City, Michigan, Texas, Florida, or any other podunk village or berg in the world.  Disgusting doesn't begin to describe it.  Demonic gets closer but doesn't express my full vitriol. 

2.  I've heard probably every one of those excuses, and all are equally vacuous.  I once heard a man tell a new widower -- at the funeral --  that his wife died of cancer because she didn't have enough faith.  I wanted to beat him silly, but he was already far beyond silly.  (Turns out in addition to being theological retarded, he was also a "sovereign citizen," which certainly made sense. 

3.  Like rectums, one excuse is as good as any other.   

[tango]

What's always fun is when people come up with some fancy spiritual sounding BS that means, well, usually more or less nothing and act as if it's an answer to a pressing question. It's the kind of thing that might dupe the person who isn't thinking too deeply, or the person who doesn't really understand but feels intimidated into not pushing for something more useful. So the person spouting the twaddle looks like they know what they are talking about and the person who is still learning gets fed ever more of it until they catch on that the emperor stands naked, at which point they walk away completely.

On another message board someone presented an argument to me to "support" their position. I use the word "support" loosely, because I simply used the exact same argument, word for word, and it supported my position just as effectively as it supported their position. If you can't answer a question, or support a position, without making vague references to "the anointing" or implications that you have an extra special dose of the Holy Spirit or similar, chances are you don't actually have a position. You can "testify of the anointing" all you want but if that's all you've got you shouldn't be surprised if people don't fall into line behind you unless you have a solid track record with them.

If people try and use arguments about unity to avoid being questioned, if they pull lines like "touch not the Lord's anointed" as a way to avoid accountability, and suggest that they and they alone are the keepers of some kind of divine boosters, run away and keep running.

The wolf in sheep's clothing is more dangerous than the wolf in wolf's clothing. Honestly, it's no exaggeration to say I would rather a young Christian guy watch a video from Pornhub than a video from the kooks and false teachers. I'd rather he watched neither, but if it had to be one or the other I'd say it's better to go with the garbage that doesn't present it's good.

[RabbiKnife]

Yes

[IMINXTC]

Yep. Cows come and go but the Bull never leaves.

Your post reminds me of some "bull" going on in Nigeria.

[Slug1]

The title of the article should read, "mega cult leader " instead of mega church leader.

Signs and wonders will follow the work of both God and the devil. Based on the fruit that followed this cult, it is safe to judge that God was not involved.

[DavidGYoung]

Signs and wonders are a mixture of run-of-the-mill conjuring tricks and ordinary natural phenomena. They are nothing else.

[ProDeo]

Signs and wonders are a mixture of run-of-the-mill conjuring tricks and ordinary natural phenomena. They are nothing else.

Except when you have experienced one, rationalized it with all your logic and knowledge and in the end were unable.

[tango]

Signs and wonders are a mixture of run-of-the-mill conjuring tricks and ordinary natural phenomena. They are nothing else.

In the kind of church that preaches a message that requires them, you're probably right that many of them probably are natural. It's interesting to note how many "healings" are of conditions that can't be objectively measured, or can't be verified as not being a well-placed stooge, or some other con trick. When the speaker in front of a huge audience receives a "word of wisdom" that someone present has back pain it's hard to take them seriously - that's a matter of probability rather than divine insight. And when the back pain mysteriously goes away, who knows whether it was a divine healing or simply the power of suggestion since it can't be measured. Does the back pain return in the morning? We never find out.

Even things that look miraculous may not be anything of the sort. We all know people in wheelchairs can't walk, so someone getting up out of their wheelchair must be a miracle. Except that most people who use wheelchairs can walk. Not very steadily, and not very far, but most can kinda sorta walk even if only for a few steps. So when the preacher tells the wheelchair user to get up and walk, and they take a few faltering steps before falling into the arms of waiting assistants, the crowd thinks they have witnessed a miracle when they haven't witnessed anything of the sort. But word spreads - the lame walked! Needless to say the poor wheelchair user still can't walk.

All that said there are times when something happens that can't be explained by rational means. One problem with some "church" bodies is that they expect things to be accepted as evidence far beyond any boundaries where things are useful as evidence and anything other than acceptance of their claims is seen as a lack of faith. I personally know a guy who is a paraplegic following an accident. If I ever saw him walking around without his wheelchair I'd know somthing very unusual had happened. If I hear a third hand story of a paraplegic walking again in some other location far away there's no way I can verify if it's true or not, just as nobody here knows my paraplegic friend and would be entirely justified in wondering whether he really was walking again, or whether he really was a paraplegic in the first place.

[Slug1]

Signs and wonders are a mixture of run-of-the-mill conjuring tricks and ordinary natural phenomena. They are nothing else.

If any sign/wonder's purpose is to "ramp/spin" up people into a higher level of emotion, and this emotion and any physical response to the emotion, dissipates after the lights go out following the service... I agree with you.

True signs and wonders "change" people. The change is lasting (but may not be permanent), no matter how one may believe or deny a true sign/wonder. It will affect the physical/emotional and spiritual level of those experiencing God's supernatural power. Don't misconstrue my "may not be permanent" comment. A person healed of an injury, can still be injured. Lazareth was raised from the dead, so were many others and they all died again.

We can never forget, there are three spirits at work in this world, the Holy Spirit (God), demonic spirits (satan) and our human spirit. Demonic spirits can affect the physical/emotional and spiritual levels as well and this will not be for any meaningful or beneficial purpose. However, when only the human spirit is involved, physical and spiritual levels cannot be affected in any meaningful/beneficial manner.

Can I conclude that your comment about signs/wonders, is based on experiencing human spirit(s) at work?

Remember, when it comes to dealing with this world and any element of "spiritual powers (signs and wonders)" is present/involved, deniers will deny and believers will discern. One (denial) always results in never finding God's involvement and the other (discernment) results in determining if and even how,  God is involved.

Q: If God (The Holy Spirit) is not involved, what is? A: Either demonic spirits or the human and/or a combination of both.

[tango]

I wonder how many people presenting the notion that signs and wonders are fakes have simply grown weary of the Bethel-style "miracles" of gold dust and feathers, and an ongoing insistence that anything less than unwavering belief that they are divine in origin represents a lack of faith.

[DavidGYoung]

Take anyone who works as a professional sleight-of-hand conjuror along to a 'signs and wonders' service and ask them if they see anything that defies rational explanation. The short answer you will get is 'No'.

[RabbiKnife]

Ok

We’ve trashed the fakes sufficiently

The question is do we believe in a savior that has the power to do anything, including to reach the lost, the skeptic, the hurt, the angry, the disappointed, the lonely with the love of God?

[DavidGYoung]

Oh, I forgot about that one. 'Let's change the subject to something else' is another response.

On a message board there is a 'New thread' option for other subjects.

[RabbiKnife]

You have something else to add to a discussion of fakes

We all agree with you

Now what?