Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?

[Fenris]

If you mean things like the dietary rules from Leviticus we believe they were superseded. Not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of it, and all that.

Which is exactly the opposite of what it says in Leviticus, for example "You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you." But whatever.

If you want to get into a more detailed discussion of which rules should stay and which should go, that's a lovely can of worms to play with.

But in the end it really doesn't matter. Jesus sacrifice covers everything.

[Sojourner]

But in the end it really doesn't matter. Jesus sacrifice covers everything.

Amen, brother. 

[Fenris]

Amen, brother.

Which kind of goes against everything you've been saying.

[Sojourner]

Amen, brother.

Which kind of goes against everything you've been saying.

How so? I seek forgiveness for my sins and acceptance before God based on the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus, who fulfilled the law and the prophets. For me, that equates to obedience to God's commandments. How is that any different than what I've said all along?

[Fenris]

How so? I seek forgiveness for my sins and acceptance before God based on the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus, who fulfilled the law and the prophets. For me, that equates to obedience to God's commandments. How is that any different than what I've said all along?

You've been saying how you follow God's commandments. But that boils down to accepting Jesus's sacrifice. You just said so yourself. "For me, that equates to obedience to God's commandments".

[Sojourner]

Fenris, I believe that trusting in Jesus as messiah justifies me before God. Moreover, keeping God's commandments is fulfilled by virtue of loving and serving God with all my heart and mind, and loving others as myself--just as Jesus declared. I'm free to live that out in faith with a clear conscience, just as you're free to keep the law your way. I believe God ended animal sacrifice because His ultimate sacrifice died on a cross at Calvary. This was evinced when the earthquake that occasioned the crucifixion split the veil before the holy of holies. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[IMINXTC]

The day I was saved, at 14 yrs, was the greatest day of my
entire life thus far and I'm old.

Upon hearing the 3rd  chapter of John, I immediately knew that God was intimately concerned with my sin, which was very awful, and earnestly desired that I allow Him to take my guilt and place it on the cross of Christ, which I  did, and my condemnation was forever and completely lifted.

Nothing I have done, since that time, has caused me to be more saved or has made my salvation less secure in anyway.

The reality of my new life compels me to live in a way that is pleasing to Him, which is to obey Him in all things.

My initial act of obediance, which saved me forever, was to believe on Him whom God has sent. I have been His, without
variance, since that time.

[ProDeo]

Amen, brother.

Which kind of goes against everything you've been saying.

I think you still have a wrong perspective of Christianity. Based on what you have said several times earlier, freely translated as, the fall of man in God's garden was a sort of blessing or something close, Christians believe what Scripture states, it was a curse [3:17] with big consequences.

God created mankind with the intention to live with Him in the Garden forever, no death, sickness etc. One sin changed all that, we were kicked out that heavenly place away from the presence of God and here we are, live a little while, suffer and then die. One sin.

Ask yourself the question, why did God not forgive A&E, we both believe God is merciful. Why this drastic measure and harsh punishment because of one sin?

The trouble started with sin and in Christianity sin is the main topic and how God in his wisdom decided how to deal with sin. As John the Baptist (Elijah) said when he met Jesus - The next day he (Elijah) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29

While Elijah never died and went straight into heaven God even send Elijah back from heaven to the womb of a woman for the second time to announce the coming of Jesus. John the Baptist (Elijah) knew Jesus from heaven and knew Jesus mission - the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Mal 4:5 - “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,2
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

I wish, hope and pray that one day you might see why we are here and not live in the presence of God as initial intended.

[Fenris]

Fenris, I believe that trusting in Jesus as messiah justifies me before God.

Yes, I understand this as standard Christian dogma.

Moreover, keeping God's commandments is fulfilled by virtue of loving and serving God with all my heart and mind, and loving others as myself

Which is not the same as keeping God's commandments in the bible.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Yep.

[Fenris]

I think you still have a wrong perspective of Christianity. Based on what you have said several times earlier, freely translated as, the fall of man in God's garden was a sort of blessing or something close, Christians believe what Scripture states, it was a curse [3:17] with big consequences.

God created mankind with the intention to live with Him in the Garden forever, no death, sickness etc. One sin changed all that, we were kicked out that heavenly place away from the presence of God and here we are, live a little while, suffer and then die. One sin.

Ask yourself the question, why did God not forgive A&E, we both believe God is merciful. Why this drastic measure and harsh punishment because of one sin?

Who says that God didn't forgive them? God could have killed them outright for their disobedience.. Instead they lived long lives. Further, perhaps the introduction of the "knowledge of good and evil" was a benefit, as it gave our lives meaning.

The trouble started with sin and in Christianity sin is the main topic and how God in his wisdom decided how to deal with sin.

Yes. Interestingly enough, it's not the main topic in Judaism. I've observed this before. Judaism is about sanctification; of the individual, of the people, of the world. Christianity is about salvation. Not the same topic at all.

While Elijah never died and went straight into heaven God even send Elijah back from heaven to the womb of a woman for the second time to announce the coming of Jesus. John the Baptist (Elijah) knew Jesus from heaven and knew Jesus mission

John himself denies that he is Elijah.

John 1: They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

Mal 4:5 - “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

Yep. We are still waiting for this to happen.

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,2
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Have I denied God's existence? I have not.

I wish, hope and pray that one day you might see why we are here and not live in the presence of God as initial intended.

I already do. And it's not for the same reason that you do.

[tango]

If you mean things like the dietary rules from Leviticus we believe they were superseded. Not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of it, and all that.

Which is exactly the opposite of what it says in Leviticus, for example "You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you." But whatever.

Sure, but it doesn't seem like a huge leap of faith to say there was a set of rules for one situation and several thousand years later that set of rules wasn't needed any more.

At a very basic level it's probably best to avoid eating things like pork and shellfish if you live in the desert and have no access to refrigeration technology. Back in Jesus' day they didn't have mains electricity and chest freezers but the lack of a prohibition isn't the same as a mandate, so if people felt they could process shellfish and pork without poisoning themselves they could make the choice. Now we know about food-borne pathogens and have lots of health and safety guidelines so there's less to worry about. But even today there's nothing to say you must eat pork.

If you want to get into a more detailed discussion of which rules should stay and which should go, that's a lovely can of worms to play with.

But in the end it really doesn't matter. Jesus sacrifice covers everything.

Somewhat cynical admittedly, but up to a point. We just get to play endless games over which rules to keep and which ones to regard as being cultural. And people have their own opinions, which naturally vary from person to person.

[Fenris]

Sure, but it doesn't seem like a huge leap of faith to say there was a set of rules for one situation and several thousand years later that set of rules wasn't needed any more.

This is the word of God that we're talking about here. These aren't friendly suggestions, they're orders from the Creator of the universe. Furthermore, there's no internal hints that point to any if these laws being temporary.

Let's look at Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. What does the bible say about that? Leviticus 23.

"You shall not perform any work on that very day, for it is a day of atonement, for you to gain atonement before the Lord, your God. For any person who will not be afflicted on that very day, shall be cut off from its people. And any person who performs any work on that very day I will destroy that person from amidst its people. "

Sounds very serious. And how long will these rules remain in effect? Let's look at verse 31.

"This is an eternal statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places."

Eternal statute. Throughout your generations. In any place that you live.

That doesn't sound temporary to me.

At a very basic level it's probably best to avoid eating things like pork and shellfish if you live in the desert and have no access to refrigeration technology.

The bible doesn't talk about safety in this instance. It talks about being defiled. Lev 11-

"For I am the Lord your God, and you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, because I am holy, and you shall not defile yourselves through any creeping creature that crawls on the ground. For I am the Lord Who has brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your God. Thus, you shall be holy, because I am holy."

Why are you putting words in the bible that aren't there? Why are you ascribing motives to God that He Himself has not stated?

[RabbiKnife]

We believe the law was fulfilled

You don’t

It is a question of faith

[tango]

Fenris, if I'm correct Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore don't believe Jesus was God, and don't accept the New Testament as being inspired by God. If I'm wrong on that please correct me because I'd rather address what you believe than what I think you believe, if they are different.

As I'm sure you know Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus was and is God. So coming from the perspective that Jesus was and is God it follows that Jesus has the right to change the rules laid down by God, because they were his rules to change.

So when God laid down rules for the Jews they took effect from the point they were given until such time they were changed or revoked. As the good Rabbi said, we believe that Jesus fulfilled the law - he had every right to change the rules.

Furthermore if you believe the divine inspiration of the New Testament then the message given by God through Paul is every bit as valid as the message given by God through Moses. If they are different we would be wise to verify that Paul was actually speaking with divine authority but, if that is accepted, is there any reason why God doesn't get to change the rules that God laid down thousands of years earlier?

[Fenris]

We believe the law was fulfilled

You don’t

It is a question of faith

It's not a question of faith. I have faith too. It's a question of whether one believes that the NT is holy writ, or not.