A beastly notion

[Oscar_Kipling]

As Athanasius already explained, you denigrate as fantasy any idea that doesn’t support the self-fulfillling prophesy of your own presuppositions

You believe yourself to be the ultimate arbiter of truth

You promulgate your own rules for how God must behave

I pity you

Well, let's all speak for ourselves why don't we. You, I guess still take the fact that I do not believe there is a God,and I do believe there is not a God to be tantamount to asserting that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God. I do not think that is the case, I do not believe that there is a minotaur hanging out in a maze on minos and I do not believe that the moon is made of cheese, but you know anything may be possible. I don't like that I have to go around making all these caveats about epistemological nuance, when all I mean is that I don't believe it not that I am the arbiter of ultimate knowledge...that's just too much. You  could play that game with anything, I believe dandelions bloom in the spring and they do not bloom on mars is not a statement of ultimate truth arbitrage or not necessarily. So unless you are going to continue to refuse to take me at my word because it works better for you paint by numbers evangelical mechanics then you can find some other reason why i'm pitiful...i'm up for it sunshine.

[RabbiKnife]

So what you are really saying is that your faith for you is superior to anyone else’s faith?

Do you believe that anything is objectively good?

[Oscar_Kipling]

So what you are really saying is that your faith for you is superior to anyone else’s faith?

Do you believe that anything is objectively good?

I don't even really understand your first statement, could you put it a different way?

I don't know if anything is good outside of any context, but I don't think there is ever no context in any way that matters. The universe appears to work in certain ways, people and other organisms are more or less a certain way, The planet earth is a certain way, so insofar as I can believe there is objective good, it would be functioning within the confines of how all these things work and work together, but that does not spit us out a nice neat set of rules and I wouldn't be too salty if you called me out on that not being objective...but it is more or less what I believe on the matter.

[RabbiKnife]

Fair enough

I take that to mean you believe every human action is good based only on its context.

So what is the arbiter of whether an act is good or not?

Who decides?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Fair enough

I take that to mean you believe every human action is good based only on its context.

So what is the arbiter of whether an act is good or not?

Who decides?

well anyone can deem a thing good or bad if they like, but the way in which it is separate from their opinion would be how it interacts in the universe, the planet, in the community, in the individual. Burn down a forest for fun and you can call it whatever you like, but the effects that it has don't care about your personal opinion, it probably did some messed up junk.

[RabbiKnife]

Didn’t really address the question except indirectly…. If I understand your answer, it is “good is determined by the observer”

Which I guess gets back to the original question of whether there is such a thing as objective good, and if so, by what standard is that determined.

Slavery is subjectively good for the owner, but not so much by the owned.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Didn’t really address the question except indirectly…. If I understand your answer, it is “good is determined by the observer”

Which I guess gets back to the original question of whether there is such a thing as objective good, and if so, by what standard is that determined.

Slavery is subjectively good for the owner, but not so much by the owned.

I do not know what to tell you, In my view there is no great arbiter. What you do affects stuff, Your opinion about it does not change the effects that it has, in this way it is not based on your notions of its goodness or badness. Slavery is not simply what happens to the slave owner, I do not know why the goodness of it should just be based on the effect it has on just the slave owner, it affects the slave, the society, the economy and so on and so forth. I happen to think that we live in systems upon systems, they interact and influence each other. What actually happens when we do something is not contained in the bubble of what we personally want from a particular act and it is not limited to what we are willing to consider or care about.

[ProDeo]

I do not believe because I am not overwhelmed by the evidence, and I suspect because the clouds never parted and an Ipad pro (hey God can deffo afford the pro) didn't shoot down into my hands on a moonbeam or whatever.

You sound as if would make a difference.

Would it?

[Oscar_Kipling]

I do not believe because I am not overwhelmed by the evidence, and I suspect because the clouds never parted and an Ipad pro (hey God can deffo afford the pro) didn't shoot down into my hands on a moonbeam or whatever.

You sound as if would make a difference.

Would it?

honestly, if that exact thing happened after I made that jokey statement, I'd almost certainly try exploring the God angle some more. I won't lie and say that I'd suddenly don itchy brown robes a give up all my worldly possessions, but I think that deserves a prayer, like "Woah, was that you god? first of all hilarious, the moon beam was chefs kiss, second i've got a ton of questions.". I've always contended that i'm not above an amazing personally tailored miracle happening before my eyes or whatever, but the arguments and evidences range from truly silly or misguided or ignorant to really interesting to think about. None of them is remotely as convincing as the maxwell-heaviside equations, and I wouldn't believe those either if they didn't more or less work consistently.   

[ProDeo]

I do not believe because I am not overwhelmed by the evidence, and I suspect because the clouds never parted and an Ipad pro (hey God can deffo afford the pro) didn't shoot down into my hands on a moonbeam or whatever.

You sound as if would make a difference.

Would it?

honestly, if that exact thing happened after I made that jokey statement, I'd almost certainly try exploring the God angle some more. I won't lie and say that I'd suddenly don itchy brown robes a give up all my worldly possessions, but I think that deserves a prayer, like "Woah, was that you god? first of all hilarious, the moon beam was chefs kiss, second i've got a ton of questions.". I've always contended that i'm not above an amazing personally tailored miracle happening before my eyes or whatever, but the arguments and evidences range from truly silly or misguided or ignorant to really interesting to think about. None of them is remotely as convincing as the maxwell-heaviside equations, and I wouldn't believe those either if they didn't more or less work consistently.

That sounds hopeful.

You don't have to wait for the new Ipad falling from the sky on your lap, God wants everyone to be saved and Jesus IMO said it best how - Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

You only have to ask, seek, knock.

I did in 1974 by a simple prayer - God if you exist help me.

And the door went open, I found, I received.

Why not spend a month seriously seeking God and test the promise to be true. You don't have to give up all your worldly possessions, that was for the ears of the rich man and what is one month in the light of eternity?

[Oscar_Kipling]

I do not believe because I am not overwhelmed by the evidence, and I suspect because the clouds never parted and an Ipad pro (hey God can deffo afford the pro) didn't shoot down into my hands on a moonbeam or whatever.

You sound as if would make a difference.

Would it?

honestly, if that exact thing happened after I made that jokey statement, I'd almost certainly try exploring the God angle some more. I won't lie and say that I'd suddenly don itchy brown robes a give up all my worldly possessions, but I think that deserves a prayer, like "Woah, was that you god? first of all hilarious, the moon beam was chefs kiss, second i've got a ton of questions.". I've always contended that i'm not above an amazing personally tailored miracle happening before my eyes or whatever, but the arguments and evidences range from truly silly or misguided or ignorant to really interesting to think about. None of them is remotely as convincing as the maxwell-heaviside equations, and I wouldn't believe those either if they didn't more or less work consistently.

That sounds hopeful.

You don't have to wait for the new Ipad falling from the sky on your lap, God wants everyone to be saved and Jesus IMO said it best how - Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

You only have to ask, seek, knock.

I did in 1974 by a simple prayer - God if you exist help me.

And the door went open, I found, I received.

Why not spend a month seriously seeking God and test the promise to be true. You don't have to give up all your worldly possessions, that was for the ears of the rich man and what is one month in the light of eternity?

I already did that, years ago, I did not have the expirience that you did.