coexistent modalism as the true Trinity

[Watchman of Naphtali]

I would contend first of all that God is in essence a Spirit; and that the Father is the essence of who God is (John 4:23-24).

This very essence descended into time to take on an added nature of human flesh.

Jesus is, in essence, the Father come in human flesh;

While the Father is an Omnipresent and eternal Spirit inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15).

Because God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4);

And Jesus, being God, is that Spirit, albeit come in flesh.

Therefore, since that Spirit is in essence God the Father (John 4:23-24),

Jesus is also in essence the Father (Isaiah 9:6-7, John 14:7-11).

While He is distinct from the Father in that He is come in flesh.

My view is in agreement with everything in the creeds except where the creeds depart from scripture.

The creeds state that Jesus is uncreated.

The Bible says that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3).

The creeds later affirm this when they affirm the incarnation.

But I would go a step further and state that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

Therefore, how is He eternally existent with the Father (John 1:1)?

The reality is that when Jesus rose again, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

There are ten dimensions in reality according to the Bible codes in Genesis 1.

time is only the fourth of these.

Therefore, when Jesus ascended, He ascended into the tenth dimension; and therefore He exists as the risen Christ, outside of time (still in the flesh).

Since He exists outside of time, His existence goes into eternity past.

Therefore,

Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and,

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

I say again that God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore, if Jesus is not the same Spirit as the Father, He isn't God.

I will say also that the Spirit in Jesus is the Father (John 14:7-11, John 4:23-24).

And that He released His Spirit to the Father (dwelling in eternity) at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

For the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to take on an added nature of human flesh.

Because by nature, someone who inhabits eternity, dwells in eternity for ever.

So, Jesus released His Spirit (the Father) into eternity to the Father dwelling in eternity.

This Spirit as He is released at the juncture of Luke 23:46, is given the title of Holy Ghost.

And He is a distinct Person from the Father and the Son.

He is distinct from the Son in that He is a Spirit without flesh (except inasmuch as He dwells in the Son, Colossians 2:9).

He is distinct from the Father in that He has lived a human life (in the Person of the Son) and therefore understands humanity in an experiential manner.

[RabbiKnife]

Well, this comes the Arian heresy.

Jesus is not a created being.  He is God eternal, not starting or coming into existence at any point in what we would call time

His physical body was created but He was not

This is mystery

And not modalism

[Fenris]

Well, this comes the Arian heresy.

I hadda look it up. Looks like settled doctrine as of Nicea.

[RabbiKnife]

Raises its ugly head more frequently than you would imagine

[Watchman of Naphtali]

Well, this comes the Arian heresy.

Jesus is not a created being.  He is God eternal, not starting or coming into existence at any point in what we would call time

His physical body was created but He was not

This is mystery

And not modalism

What I am saying is that, before the incarnation, He was the Father (Isaiah 9:6-7, John 14:7-11) rather than an eternally begotten Son.

So yes, as concerning His Deity, He is not a created being.

I would contend that if Jesus is eternally begotten, then He is either 1/3 of God or a 2nd God.

But 1 Timothy 3:16 teaches us that God was manifest in the flesh.

Now, how do we define God in such verses as 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and James 3:9 (kjv)?

I think that there, you have your answer.

And no, I am not teaching Arianism; for that doctrine preaches that Jesus isn't God.

I would preach to you unequivocally that He is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Athanasius]

The reality is that when Jesus rose again, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

There are ten dimensions in reality according to the Bible codes in Genesis 1.

time is only the fourth of these.

Therefore, when Jesus ascended, He ascended into the tenth dimension; and therefore He exists as the risen Christ, outside of time (still in the flesh).

Since He exists outside of time, His existence goes into eternity past.

Therefore,

Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and,

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

I say again that God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore, if Jesus is not the same Spirit as the Father, He isn't God.

How have you managed to get this far, calling it "co-existent modalism" without realising that you're describing Binitarianism? Or I mean, if you want to be fancy, I suppose you could reach for Sabellianism, given your emphasis on essence.

It's just bad PR. I suggest you call it "Binitarian Sabellianism". It's a bit redundant, but people will remember it. Just remember I came up with it and any future uses will require license fees paid to myself.

So your whole thing here relies on Jesus going to the teeny-tiny 10th dimension outside of time, which results in him existing eternally, even though since he now exists eternally he would have always existed eternally, and then we'd have two Jesus'. Oh dear.

Yeah I'm gonna pass.

[Fenris]

How have you managed to get this far, calling it "co-existent modalism" without realising that you're describing Binitarianism? Or I mean, if you want to be fancy, I suppose you could reach for Sabellianism, given your emphasis on essence.

I was hoping to get some stuff done today, but it looks like I'll be googling the finer points of Christian theology for a while...

[Watchman of Naphtali]

The reality is that when Jesus rose again, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

There are ten dimensions in reality according to the Bible codes in Genesis 1.

time is only the fourth of these.

Therefore, when Jesus ascended, He ascended into the tenth dimension; and therefore He exists as the risen Christ, outside of time (still in the flesh).

Since He exists outside of time, His existence goes into eternity past.

Therefore,

Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and,

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

I say again that God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore, if Jesus is not the same Spirit as the Father, He isn't God.

How have you managed to get this far, calling it "co-existent modalism" without realising that you're describing Binitarianism? Or I mean, if you want to be fancy, I suppose you could reach for Sabellianism, given your emphasis on essence.

It's just bad PR. I suggest you call it "Binitarian Sabellianism". It's a bit redundant, but people will remember it. Just remember I came up with it and any future uses will require license fees paid to myself.

So your whole thing here relies on Jesus going to the teeny-tiny 10th dimension outside of time, which results in him existing eternally, even though since he now exists eternally he would have always existed eternally, and then we'd have two Jesus'. Oh dear.

Yeah I'm gonna pass.

Two Jesus'?

I suppose that this is what is taught by John 1:1!

Since Jesus is God, and not 1/3 of God, or a 2nd God?

There is one God, correct?  Not two (James 2:19)?

How then is the Word with God if He is God?

Is that not two Gods (since the Word, being God, is with God)?

btw, I am also not teaching Binitarianism; for I believe that the Holy Ghost is also a distinct member of the Trinity (sorry that I forgot to mention that, I will edit the OP to include that).

[Watchman of Naphtali]

Two Jesus'...

The Father and the Son...

For the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity;

And Jesus is the same Spirit come in flesh!

Do you not know that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have one name according to Matthew 28:19?

If that name be YHWH, then Jesus' name is YHWH.

If it be Jesus Christ (the name of the Son), then the name of the Father and the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ (compare Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38).

For the name YHWH can be hyphenated (as in the names YHWH-Tsidkenu or YHWH-Rapha).

And the name "Jesus" is a hyphenated form of YHWH...("YHWH-is-salvation").

So, one must ask, is the Father salvation as the Son is salvation?

I would say that He is, since He predestinated us to salvation from before the beginning....

So, the Father's Name is YHWH-is-salvation (Jesus Christ).

Since that is the case, the Father's Name is Jesus and the Son's Name is Jesus...

two Jesus'...

(I won't mention that the name of the Holy Ghost is also Jesus; and that makes three who have that Name).

[Watchman of Naphtali]

The reality is that when Jesus rose again, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

There are ten dimensions in reality according to the Bible codes in Genesis 1.

time is only the fourth of these.

Therefore, when Jesus ascended, He ascended into the tenth dimension; and therefore He exists as the risen Christ, outside of time (still in the flesh).

Since He exists outside of time, His existence goes into eternity past.

Therefore,

Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and,

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

I say again that God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore, if Jesus is not the same Spirit as the Father, He isn't God.

How have you managed to get this far, calling it "co-existent modalism" without realising that you're describing Binitarianism? Or I mean, if you want to be fancy, I suppose you could reach for Sabellianism, given your emphasis on essence.

It's just bad PR. I suggest you call it "Binitarian Sabellianism". It's a bit redundant, but people will remember it. Just remember I came up with it and any future uses will require license fees paid to myself.

So your whole thing here relies on Jesus going to the teeny-tiny 10th dimension outside of time, which results in him existing eternally, even though since he now exists eternally he would have always existed eternally, and then we'd have two Jesus'. Oh dear.

Yeah I'm gonna pass.

Also, the doctrine that I am preaching was labeled as coexistent modalism by someone else in an attempt to deny that it is in all reality the true Trinity.

But I accept the label; and will associate the label with the true Trinity.

The doctrine clearly does not deny Romans 1:3, Luke 1:35 as do the creeds.

But at every other level, the creeds are in agreement with the doctrine that I am preaching.

[Watchman of Naphtali]

Let me just say that the doctrine I am preaching is that the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh while the Son is the same Spirit come in flesh.

Since this is the case, He is one God (James 2:19);

while there is also a distinction between Father and Son and Holy Ghost.

The Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh.

The Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father in that He has lived a human life in the Person of the Son and therefore has an experiential understanding of humanity (having lived as a human, He understand the fear of death).

Also, the Father and the Holy Ghost indwell the Son as He is risen and exalted to the right hand of the Father (Colossians 2:9).

I am saying these things for lack of better wording, in obedience to the following,

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

because the reality is that the Father and the Holy Ghost, as He dwells in Jesus, is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

[Athanasius]

Two Jesus'?

I suppose that this is what is taught by John 1:1!

Since Jesus is God, and not 1/3 of God, or a 2nd God?

There is one God, correct?  Not two (James 2:19)?

How then is the Word with God if He is God?

Is that not two Gods (since the Word, being God, is with God)?

btw, I am also not teaching Binitarianism; for I believe that the Holy Ghost is also a distinct member of the Trinity (sorry that I forgot to mention that, I will edit the OP to include that).

As in, you're suggesting Jesus visits the teeny-tiny 10th dimension in history and that places him outside of time, which if he's then outside of time he's always been outside of time, so when human Jesus goes to visit the teeny-tiny 10th dimension in history he'll be surprised to find himself already there.

Unless you mean, and we can accept this for the sake of argument, that Jesus really does visit the teeny tiny 10th dimension only once in history, and this places him outside of time for eternity, well, then you have this problem where creation doesn't happen at all because there was no teeny-tiny 10th dimension for Jesus to access or even a creation at all because he couldn't get to the teeny tiny 10th dimension at all.

You've constructed an elaborate temporal loop for human Jesus but have neglected the first loop which requires creation prior to Jesus accessing the teeny tiny 10th dimension.

Did I mention the 10th dimension is meant to be teeny tiny and really very _small? In any case, it's teeny tiny and really very small.

It's just one of those paradoxes and if we're ranking them I think it's a few steps below Loki and surely not anywhere close to the first Terminator film, maybe the first two. Their time travel gets wonky after that.

And no this isn't taught by John 1:1.

Why don't you just lose the Hollywood temporal paradox and the teeny tiny 10th dimension?

[Athanasius]

The reality is that when Jesus rose again, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

There are ten dimensions in reality according to the Bible codes in Genesis 1.

time is only the fourth of these.

Therefore, when Jesus ascended, He ascended into the tenth dimension; and therefore He exists as the risen Christ, outside of time (still in the flesh).

Since He exists outside of time, His existence goes into eternity past.

Therefore,

Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and,

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

I say again that God is one Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Therefore, if Jesus is not the same Spirit as the Father, He isn't God.

How have you managed to get this far, calling it "co-existent modalism" without realising that you're describing Binitarianism? Or I mean, if you want to be fancy, I suppose you could reach for Sabellianism, given your emphasis on essence.

It's just bad PR. I suggest you call it "Binitarian Sabellianism". It's a bit redundant, but people will remember it. Just remember I came up with it and any future uses will require license fees paid to myself.

So your whole thing here relies on Jesus going to the teeny-tiny 10th dimension outside of time, which results in him existing eternally, even though since he now exists eternally he would have always existed eternally, and then we'd have two Jesus'. Oh dear.

Yeah I'm gonna pass.

Also, the doctrine that I am preaching was labeled as coexistent modalism by someone else in an attempt to deny that it is in all reality the true Trinity.

But I accept the label; and will associate the label with the true Trinity.

The doctrine clearly does not deny Romans 1:3, Luke 1:35 as do the creeds.

But at every other level, the creeds are in agreement with the doctrine that I am preaching.

Oh well that person was a dummy clearly. I mean 'Co-existent modalism' is obviously a contradiction in terms and my idea is better.

[Athanasius]

Let me just say that the doctrine I am preaching is that the Father is an Omnipresent Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh while the Son is the same Spirit come in flesh.

Since this is the case, He is one God (James 2:19);

while there is also a distinction between Father and Son and Holy Ghost.

The Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in flesh.

The Holy Ghost is distinct from the Father in that He has lived a human life in the Person of the Son and therefore has an experiential understanding of humanity (having lived as a human, He understand the fear of death).

Also, the Father and the Holy Ghost indwell the Son as He is risen and exalted to the right hand of the Father (Colossians 2:9).

I am saying these things for lack of better wording, in obedience to the following,

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

because the reality is that the Father and the Holy Ghost, as He dwells in Jesus, is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

Oh, I thought you were talking about Father Ted.

[Watchman of Naphtali]

Two Jesus'?

I suppose that this is what is taught by John 1:1!

Since Jesus is God, and not 1/3 of God, or a 2nd God?

There is one God, correct?  Not two (James 2:19)?

How then is the Word with God if He is God?

Is that not two Gods (since the Word, being God, is with God)?

btw, I am also not teaching Binitarianism; for I believe that the Holy Ghost is also a distinct member of the Trinity (sorry that I forgot to mention that, I will edit the OP to include that).

As in, you're suggesting Jesus visits the teeny-tiny 10th dimension in history and that places him outside of time, which if he's then outside of time he's always been outside of time, so when human Jesus goes to visit the teeny-tiny 10th dimension in history he'll be surprised to find himself already there.

Unless you mean, and we can accept this for the sake of argument, that Jesus really does visit the teeny tiny 10th dimension only once in history, and this places him outside of time for eternity, well, then you have this problem where creation doesn't happen at all because there was no teeny-tiny 10th dimension for Jesus to access or even a creation at all because he couldn't get to the teeny tiny 10th dimension at all.

You've constructed an elaborate temporal loop for human Jesus but have neglected the first loop which requires creation prior to Jesus accessing the teeny tiny 10th dimension.

Did I mention the 10th dimension is meant to be teeny tiny and really very _small? In any case, it's teeny tiny and really very small.

It's just one of those paradoxes and if we're ranking them I think it's a few steps below Loki and surely not anywhere close to the first Terminator film, maybe the first two. Their time travel gets wonky after that.

And no this isn't taught by John 1:1.

Why don't you just lose the Hollywood temporal paradox and the teeny tiny 10th dimension?

That's one of the reasons why I believe that the Son isn't eternally begotten but that it was the Father who descended and took on an added nature of human flesh.

Because if Jesus being eternally begotten were the case, it would indeed translate into there being two "Sons" in eternity.

As it is (if you follow what I am saying in all my posts), there are two Jesus'...

The Father and the Son.

Also, the tenth dimension is not teeny-tiny; as each new dimension as you go up in number is larger than the one that preceded it.