Antisemitism

[Sojourner]

Oscar, I'm not going to engage in another endless, protracted, discussion that accomplishes nothing except to demonstrate that we hold conflicting opinions on virtually everything. The current circumstances now surrounding Israel are fulfilling Bible prophecy, and the way events ultimately turn out are in accordance with the foreordained will of God. No actions, words or sentiments will change that. (Since I know that's nonsensical to you, just I'll leave it at that).

The Jews have been the most reviled, persecuted people in human history--an antipathy that culminated in Hitler's systematic "final solution" that wiped out millions of European Jews. When your forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and you currently live surrounded by enemies who deny your right to exist, I imagine you develop a very strong sense of self-preservation. A two state solution will probably be attempted at some point, but in the interim, Israel will do whatever is necessary to prevent a repeat of the 10/7 attack. Consider that my final reply.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, I'm not going to engage in another endless, protracted, discussion that accomplishes nothing except to demonstrate that we hold conflicting opinions on virtually everything. The current circumstances now surrounding Israel are fulfilling Bible prophecy, and the way events ultimately turn out are in accordance with the foreordained will of God. No actions, words or sentiments will change that. (Since I know that's nonsensical to you, just I'll leave it at that).

Seems like you kinda buried the lead, and what people actually fail to understand is that it doesn't matter that there are many perfectly rational and sometimes conflicting ways to think about this situation because this is ordained by God to happen so any other rationale is actually meaningless and couldn't possibly have any effect on God's will. Odd that you would assert that what people do or do not understand about reasons or outcomes has anything to do with it.

The Jews have been the most reviled, persecuted people in human history--an antipathy that culminated in Hitler's systematic "final solution" that wiped out millions of European Jews. When your forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and you currently live surrounded by enemies who deny your right to exist, I imagine you develop a very strong sense of self-preservation. A two state solution will probably be attempted at some point, but in the interim, Israel will do whatever is necessary to prevent a repeat of the 10/7 attack. Consider that my final reply.

My forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and there are plenty of enemies around us too that deny plenty-o-rights , sometimes even the right to exist. I wonder what my people are justified in doing?...perhaps I should create a thread about it and watch all the support and defenses of the actions my people have taken over the last few years in the united states roll in....Or does it need to be backed up by biblical prophecy? All that is rhetorical, not that you were going to answer, I get it, reasons don't matter , what fits or can be tortured into your interpretation of your religion is what ultimately justifies your position the argument is just window dressing.

[RabbiKnife]

So, Oscar, how is that sincere seeking God thing working out for you?

[Oscar_Kipling]

So, Oscar, how is that sincere seeking God thing working out for you?

Fine I suppose, though I had to buy my own Ipad . Thanks for asking.

[RabbiKnife]

So, Oscar, how is that sincere seeking God thing working out for you?

Fine I suppose, though I had to buy my own Ipad . Thanks for asking.

So
Times God doesn’t give us all the toys we want or ask for, no matter our sincere prayers…🥸

[Oscar_Kipling]

So, Oscar, how is that sincere seeking God thing working out for you?

Fine I suppose, though I had to buy my own Ipad . Thanks for asking.

So
Times God doesn’t give us all the toys we want or ask for, no matter our sincere prayers…🥸

yeah I am starting to notice that, its practically impossible to predict what he's going to do...I mean outside of appearently everything that is happening in Israel/Palestine right now, which I've been told is unequivocally what he wants to be happening right now I guess in an attempt to avoid just giving me an ipad pro...probably not how I'd handle it, but his ways are higher than Cupertino's ways.

[Fenris]

I get that people are upset over the plight of the Palestinian civilians caught in the middle--even though great effort is being taken by Israel to minimize collateral damage.

The people protesting Israel aren't critical of Israel's handling of the war. They're critical of Israel existing at all. They aren't calling for Hamas to release hostages, or surrender. They're calling for Israel to step defending itself against a foe that is a genocidal lunatic religious fundamentalist terrorist group.

[Fenris]

I get your criticism, I guess, I mean Fenris claimed that a Jewish student claimed to be followed around by protesters at Columbia, and hey if it happened like that then i'd say protesters shouldn't be singling out any random student based on some aspect of their identity and following them around...it's not just a terrifying thing to do to someone, it also seems an ineffective way to protest to me.

By wondering about the "effectiveness" of the activity, it shows that you've entirely missed the point. They're not trying to be "effective". They are trying to be intimidating, and they are succeeding, with the blessing of the Columbia University administration.

Is that what's happening, people are failing to understand? I could just as easily say that what folks don't understand is that attempting to obliterate Hamas through extreme measures that incur even this  "minimized" amount of collateral damage in the form of lives and livelihoods has...I suppose, some non-zero chance of obliterating Hamas in the sense of destroying its leadership, infrastructure, weapons, institutional knowledge and foot soldiers, in the area, but it is just as likely to generate the disfigured, disgruntled disenfranchised generation that will ultimately replace them.

It's amazing, because not one person during world war 2 claimed that "bombing Germany will only create more Nazis". When a country is at war with totalitarian state, you have to destroy the state, and worry about deradicalizing the population afterwards.

And I have never seen one single pundit worry about how terror attacks against Israel will radicalize the population. Jews are just expected to suck it up when lunatics try to murder them. But when they strike back- Oh noes!! Arabs might get mad!!!

[Fenris]

The Jews have been the most reviled, persecuted people in human history--an antipathy that culminated in Hitler's systematic "final solution" that wiped out millions of European Jews. When your forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and you currently live surrounded by enemies who deny your right to exist, I imagine you develop a very strong sense of self-preservation. A two state solution will probably be attempted at some point, but in the interim, Israel will do whatever is necessary to prevent a repeat of the 10/7 attack. Consider that my final reply.

My daughter just gifted me a book. The title is "Hitler's willing executioners". The author's premise is that it wasn't just members of the SS or the Nazi party who carried out the Holocaust, but rather even ordinary everyday "non radical" Germans.

Before the author addresses his primary premise, he first goes into defining Antisemitism in order to explain how the Holocaust could happen in the first place. And he makes a very interesting point.

Most forms of prejudice are based first on differentness. "He's Irish, I'm Italian, he's different than me and I don't like him". Usually with the additional "And because he's different, he's also inferior".

Antisemitism is different.

Jews aren't hated because they're "different". Jews aren't considered "inferior".

Jews are demonized. Jews are considered diabolical. Jewish existence is considered an upset to the natural order of things. People consider it their moral obligation to end Jewish existence.

The Nazis are a perfect example. Hamas is another. Hamas isn't interested in a peace deal, or a two-state solution, or indeed coexistence with Jews at all. Hamas considers it their religious obligation to annihilate Israel via Jihad, and once that's done, to murder every Jew in the world.

And what are the foes of Israel talking about? That Israel isn't "being careful enough" it its war against Hamas? No, Israel actually being very careful. According to the UN, the average civilian to combatant ratio for wars in the 21st century is about 9:1. 9 civilians killed for every 1 combatant. Or, to view it another way, 90% of the causalities in an average war are civilians.

The IDF in Gaza has a kill ration of about 1.3:1. That's 1.3 civilians killed foe every combatant- IF Hamas casualty numbers are to be believed. (And there are reasons to believe they're inflated). That means Israel is being very careful to not harm civilians.

And yet what is Israel accused of? Genocide. The very worst crime.

Did anyone accuse Bashir Assad of genocide when he killed 500,000 civilians in Syria? No.

So why the accusation against Israel? Because Antisemitism is about demonizing Jews. So that the people who hate Jews are justified in destroying them.

[Fenris]

My forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and there are plenty of enemies around us too that deny plenty-o-rights , sometimes even the right to exist.

What people is that, exactly?

[Oscar_Kipling]

By wondering about the "effectiveness" of the activity, it shows that you've entirely missed the point. They're not trying to be "effective". They are trying to be intimidating, and they are succeeding, with the blessing of the Columbia University administration.

I guess it could be true that their only purpose was intimidation of a specific student. I was giving these people the benefit of actually caring about what they claim to care about and had the intent of doing something outside of just scaring another kid, but yeah could be just intimidation. Where did you get all this information on the mindset and intention of these protesters, I personally didn't find anything that fits the way you've depicted events.

It's amazing, because not one person during world war 2 claimed that "bombing Germany will only create more Nazis". When a country is at war with totalitarian state, you have to destroy the state, and worry about deradicalizing the population afterwards.

haha, well yeah that's not a bad point. It is true that it is just as conceivable that a concerted effort to implement programs, policies and attitude shifts after reaching the benchmarks that satisfy the total destruction of Hamas in the minds of the folks that have the power to declare that can likely mitigate the generation of would-be future terrorists. I'd argue that Nazis and Hamas and its ilk, while there are ideological parallels (like really hating the Jewish people for instance) and comparable underlying motives & methods ( Like using antisemitism to facilitate recruiting and justification for territorial gains), are fairly dissimilar in some fundamental ways. We are still not rid of Nazis, In part because the ideology therein appeals to the discontentment of those that can consider themselves  the (entirely made up imo) Nazi racial categories. In that way Nazism is not absolutely tied to German national identity, but It was largely a nationalist movement. I say all of that so that you don't absolutely drag me when I claim that the dissimilarities between Nazism and Hamas and similar Islamic terrorist organizations limits the efficacy of a "Bombing Germany" style strategy when applied to them in the sense of how tightly mated to national identity Nazism was and how tightly associated Islam and Islamic nationalism is to Hamas. As a writer of terrible sentences I even recognize that was one of my worst.  Anyway that is before I mention How much more intrinsically accustomed to decentralized power structures and non-traditional warfare these various Islamic groups are (including Hamas although Palestinian nationalism is a key feature for them) than Nazi's during WW2 could have ever hoped to be. All that to say that your point isn't entirely irrelevant, but I would be concerned with overgeneralizing the Nazi parallels especially as they apply to the possibilities of radicalizing folks outside of the "home" nation/state.

So none of that means that a good post conflict plan for mitigating radicalization is some kind of hopeless endeavor,  but it certainly isn't front loaded in the sense that it is readily apparent to me that there is such a plan. I think there is good reason to distrust our wars on terrorism to effectively plan, deploy and support those sorts of long term goals because historically, for whatever reasons it has not appeared to work out that way. This is one reason that I'm personally skeptical that future radicalization will be contained through well considered and implemented policy, outside of what I mentioned in the previous section, as well as just best laid plans.

Anyway, ultimately my original post was critical of the idea that there was some key simple concept that people fail to understand, as opposed to giving at least some folks the credit of understanding well enough but disagreeing or expressing skepticism without being categorized as either inherently anti-Semitic or failing to consider this one simple weight loss secret because the only thinkers will I presume think like you if they are actually thinking.

This is by no means a comprehensive download of all of my thoughts and feeling on the issues at hand , and I'm fine to continue to talk about this if you have further points....heck I'll even make some effort to consider your feelings.   

And I have never seen one single pundit worry about how terror attacks against Israel will radicalize the population. Jews are just expected to suck it up when lunatics try to murder them. But when they strike back- Oh noes!! Arabs might get mad!!!

I don't know much about what the pundits are saying, that isn't really my thing, However I actually do worry about how Hamas' actions will radicalize people in and outside of Israel, I'd argue that It already has. Perhaps you should stop watching pundits, sounds like they aren't doing you any favors.

[Oscar_Kipling]

My forebears have been subjected to extermination attempts, and there are plenty of enemies around us too that deny plenty-o-rights , sometimes even the right to exist.

What people is that, exactly?

Black people, Neurodivergent people, LGBT..etc people, Irreligious people. Pick one or combine them into a Voltron of weirdos if you prefer.

[Fenris]

I guess it could be true that their only purpose was intimidation of a specific student. I was giving these people the benefit of actually caring about what they claim to care about and had the intent of doing something outside of just scaring another kid, but yeah could be just intimidation. Where did you get all this information on the mindset and intention of these protesters, I personally didn't find anything that fits the way you've depicted events.

Where did I get this idea of their mindset? Gee, I don't know. Because one of my daughter's friends had to be locked inside the college library at Cooper Union with the other visibly Jewish students while protesters banged on the doors and yelled "Free Palestine"? Because Jewish student organizations on college campuses have been the subject of protests and intimidation and even building damage and arson? C'mon. If you don't see all this is because you're not paying attention. Or because you don't want to see it.

We are still not rid of Nazis,

No, but we're rid of the Nazi state. Considering that they started a war that killed 50 million people, I'd say that's a major accomplishment.

In that way Nazism is not absolutely tied to German national identity, but It was largely a nationalist movement. I say all of that so that you don't absolutely drag me when I claim that the dissimilarities between Nazism and Hamas and similar Islamic terrorist organizations

And you don't find it the least bit interesting that a nationalist movement and a religious fundamentalist movement both had the goal of exterminating the Jewish people? Because I find it extremely interesting. It looks to me like lots of people just hate Jews, and whatever they believe in, they use it as a justification for their pre existing hatred.

So none of that means that a good post conflict plan for mitigating radicalization is some kind of hopeless endeavor,  but it certainly isn't front loaded in the sense that it is readily apparent to me that there is such a plan.

The war is justified. Even if what happens afterwards is less than ideal, Hamas must be removed from power.

I think there is good reason to distrust our wars on terrorism

This is not a "war on terrorism". It's a war on the state of Hamas that exists in Gaza. World war 2 was not a "war on Naziism". It was a war on the German state controlled by Nazis.

Anyway, ultimately my original post was critical of the idea that there was some key simple concept that people fail to understand

I think it is you that has a failure to understand.

heck I'll even make some effort to consider your feelings.   

How generous of you.

Perhaps you should stop watching pundits, sounds like they aren't doing you any favors.

I guess you aren't considering my feelings anymore. It was nice while it lasted.

[Fenris]

Black people, Neurodivergent people, LGBT..etc people, Irreligious people.

Which one of these were your forebears?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Where did I get this idea of their mindset? Gee, I don't know. Because one of my daughter's friends had to be locked inside the college library at Cooper Union with the other visibly Jewish students while protesters banged on the doors and yelled "Free Palestine"? Because Jewish student organizations on college campuses have been the subject of protests and intimidation and even building damage and arson? C'mon. If you don't see all this is because you're not paying attention. Or because you don't want to see it.

How strange, Do you think that everyone has a daughter whose friend had this expirience? Why would it be surprising that I didn't find this personal story that your daughter's friend conveyed to you presumably via your daughter in my admittedly cursory google search? You aren't referencing a news article or even a reddit post that I might actually have access to, but a story from people you have personal relationships with, I'm boggled. Anyway I was referring to what You wrote:

"A Jewish student at Columbia complained to the administration that she felt unsafe as protesters were following her around on campus. (Under NYS Penal law, this is aggravated harassment, an "A misdemeanor".) The administration refused to do anything about it, telling her "You're the only person who feels unsafe"."

So even this updated story that you are conveying is different than that one, admittedly perhaps you conveyed that story about your daughter's friend earlier or somewhere else and it was unclear what I was referring to. Now that we are on the same page, I read that story and thought that it was an ineffective way to protest, you go on to claim that it isn't a protest at all, so I asked how you knew that and then you shared a seemingly entirely different story that It would make no sense for me to know about. So I guess thanks, you've set me straight.

No, but we're rid of the Nazi state. Considering that they started a war that killed 50 million people, I'd say that's a major accomplishment.

Agreed

And you don't find it the least bit interesting that a nationalist movement and a religious fundamentalist movement both had the goal of exterminating the Jewish people? Because I find it extremely interesting. It looks to me like lots of people just hate Jews, and whatever they believe in, they use it as a justification for their pre existing hatred.

Ouch, my knee got a little scraped up from this dragging you've given me. What could you mean that I don't find it interesting, I'm literally wasting my time on a forum to talk about this with someone who obviously thinks I'm an idiodic dirtbag, Of course I'm very interested. I also clearly stated in a part of my post that you didn't quote that Nazis and Hamas both use antisemitism as a convenient recruitment and justification mechanism. Honestly I don't even believe that it is always about hatred, I think alot of times antisemitism and other forms of racism are just things people use to justify stealing, subjugating and otherwise mistreating other human beings for personal gain and profit. I actually believe that race as a concept was more or less created to justify all manner of profit on the backs and lives of other humans and in some ways was prototyped through copying the aspects of antisemitism that allowed the marshalling of minds and bodies towards atrocities that were profitable. That's not the whole story of course, and I don't believe it was quite as conscious as all that but I think that is always in the mix with big racisms.

but seriously, what do you mean when you ask if I find it interesting, why would you think I don't?

The war is justified. Even if what happens afterwards is less than ideal, Hamas must be removed from power.

Does a just war mean that there is no room for criticism? I'm not even sure that justice is an especially useful way to consider war outside of getting people to do war, that is I think it biases our conceptualization heavily toward the "doing it" part and obfuscates the reconstruction and prevention aspects. I know that you hate when I talk about WW2 because I'm appearently super ignorant of its history, but while I think that the use of nuclear bombs was justified (that is the war where they dropped those right? ), I also have plenty of criticisms and questions regarding that decision. I think what makes us different, or one thing is that I think its perfectly okay to question and criticize such things and I am confident that it doesn't make me some kind of WW2 era Japanese colonial imperialist or a spineless hippie.

This is not a "war on terrorism". It's a war on the state of Hamas that exists in Gaza. World war 2 was not a "war on Naziism". It was a war on the German state controlled by Nazis.

I mean I think that is where we disagree, I think in some sense it is a war on Islamic nationalism/imperialism too, because I think that Unlike Nazism there are stronger ties to broader ideological imperatives that extend well beyond the borders of Palestine or Israel, and again I believe that Hamas is fundamentally a terrorist organization and it comes with all the cool new updates in decentralized power structures and strategy tactics and doctrine that just were not a thing for the Nazis.

I think it is you that has a failure to understand.

I mean, Okay...I don't.

 
How generous of you.

I mean I genuinely thought it was, You seemed to really want to instill in me that it is something I should consider when interacting with you...now that I tell you that I'm going to make an effort I feel like you unhappy with it. Is it because I said it in a slightly teasing way?

I guess you aren't considering my feelings anymore. It was nice while it lasted.

I haven't had cable in like a decade so like I genuinely couldn't name 10 current pundits on the tv news, I don't know who hosts the daily show now, I don't even watch those like comedic late night bits about politics or the internet based pundits that float around on youtube or tic-tok (okay my GF loves tic-tok and shows me stuff sometimes but I don't seek it and usually recognize it as anger bait). I see political memes but only because I lurk on lots of boards and forums or social media to see what other humans are saying. What i'm saying is that I think that based on your post while I don't live in some kind of absolute vacuum you seem to have taken it for granted that I'm paying attention to "the pundits" and I actively don't. I assumed that it was because you do, and you do because you think that is like the default thing to do, and it doesn't have to be. I think it is all generally anger bait, and can have an extremely distorting effect on you and what you think about others as I believe was exemplified by your belief that I'm watching a bunch of goons that just want to piss me off so that I can count toward their unique impressions and consequently ad revenues. I've been frustrated with everyone on every side complaining about how this or that form of media is being irresponsible and or deceptive because I felt like no one was taking responsibility for their consumption as a part of that calculus...so I decided to be personally responsible for my consumption. IOW I actually thought it was good advice, you honestly seem really easily triggered and I reckon some of that is because I'm a nightmare to talk to, but some of it I'd bet is due to your consumption habits. take it or leave it, we don't need to argue this point unless you just want to , and in that case have at you.