"What the media get wrong is..."

[DavidGYoung]

How does saying that BBC's Newsbeat wrote a fairly balanced article show a complete lack of morality and ethics?

[Fenris]

How does saying that BBC's Newsbeat wrote a fairly balanced article show a complete lack of morality and ethics?

I have repeatedly brought up that Hamas is committing war crimes, and you have repeatedly ignored it.  You'd rather talk about "the military agenda of Israel" than the unspeakable evil that was committed by Hamas.

The one silver lining of this whole catastrophe is we're really learning who are friends are and who they aren't. Jews on the left feel betrayed because they have been betrayed. The left is siding with the party that wants to murder Jews. You all must be really proud.

 

[DavidGYoung]

If you take a look in the top right-hand corner of each post, you will see the author.

I have said nothing at all about Israel having any kind of 'military agenda'. Those appear in someone else's posts.

[Fenris]

Simple question.

Is Hamas a terrorist group?

[DavidGYoung]

Correction: the top left-hand corner.

[DavidGYoung]

If you are asking me, yes. Hamas is a terrorist group. Quite obviously.

[Athanasius]

Oscar, your conduct is way over the line in this thread, and if I were Rebecca or Fenris, I'd be far more ticked off (rightly), which is to say I think they've been conservative. Fenris especially, who has just experienced the worst, senseless, malicious, unnecessary killing of Jewish people since WWII. I mean, honestly, now it's working me up. How could it not? We're talking about a terrorist organisation and (elected) political group that denies the holocaust and says they'd do it for real. And what do they do? They start doing it for real.

"Hamas is mean like Joker". Seriously? How flippant can you be? Unreal. If I said that, I'd get over the hangover and apologise to Fenris because surely I'd have been drunk to type that out, oh great intellectual.

Since tensions are running high with everyone, I'm going to give the thread a break. Please do not spill over into other threads, or I'll start giving accounts a break. I'll re-open the thread in a day or two.

[Slug1]

Not to be an elbowing Earl
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 It is easy to do that so i'm not making fun of you or anything, but it does illustrate one of the flaws of believing that any of us are especially good at agenda detection much less able to use it to parse the truth.

"Agenda detection"? I never said there was an agenda. You added that. My complaint is the rank ignorance among those individuals whose job it is to tell us what's happening. 

When reporters say "Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world" (your words) it sounds much more serious than "It's the 63rd most densely populated urban area in the world," which is not only more accurate but also isn't shielding Hamas. "Israel shouldn't be bombing Gaza because it's densely populated" while ignoring (as you have!) that Hamas is hiding behind civilians. As I have said, several times, this is a war crime. Neither you nor the "reporters" are facing this fact. 

Having experienced war, I can understand how so many (without the experience) deny the reality of true evil. Many cannot even comprehend true evil because all they have is what has been fed to them through tv, radio, or the internet. Also, as the Bible warns us, people gather under those who tickle their ears, this warning does not only apply to what God's truth is, but also any truth.

My point now in replying to your thoughts, I agree with you that the evil is not in the action of defense by Israel. The act of hording innocent civilians  around themselves and placing their caches of weapons and ammo in the most densely populated areas of Gaza, reveals how evil Hamas is. What is also revealed in their actions of hording innocent civilians, cowardice is revealed! By denying the civilians from escaping the consequences that Hamas is now dealing with, actually shows how "desperate" Hamas is and how (truly) ill equipped they are as a militant force.

They killed innocent Israelis that could not defend themselves, and now that Israel is beginning to retaliate by force and Hamas now focuses their evil upon their own people by hording them as shields?

Here is a news flash, Hamas is a terrorist organization against Israel AND their own people. Wipe out Hamas/Hesbollah (etc) and BOTH Israel and Palestine will have peace.

The media as no clue what evil is. As we've seen more and more over the past several years, evil is now good and good is now evil. This war, when good is done = Israel defends themselves, is painted over by the media as evil. When we see those who have NEVER experienced war rooting for those who are doing the "real" evil = Hamas, we can see in greater clarity how evil is now good, and good is now evil.

[ProDeo]

My point now in replying to your thoughts, I agree with you that the evil is not in the action of defense by Israel. The act of hording innocent civilians  around themselves and placing their caches of weapons and ammo in the most densely populated areas of Gaza, reveals how evil Hamas is. What is also revealed in their actions of hording innocent civilians, cowardice is revealed! By denying the civilians from escaping the consequences that Hamas is now dealing with, actually shows how "desperate" Hamas is and how (truly) ill equipped they are as a militant force.

If Hamas really cares about their people they should release all hostages without asking something in return. It could soften the upcoming Israeli ground offensive.
 

[Oscar_Kipling]

How is what you are doing not simply attempting to contextualize a statistical fact using emotional or ethical considerations in order to justify the military agenda of Israel?

"Military agenda of Israel"? What on earth are you talking about?!

The government of Gaza, a terrorist group known as Hamas, has a genocidal agenda of the destruction of Israel via Jihad and the murder of every Jew in the world. They're not shy about it, they're quite proud. It's in their Charter.

Last week, they carried out an attack that actualized those beliefs. They murdered more than 1,200 Israelis, nearly all civilians. They tortured people before killing them, shooting them, stabbing them, setting them on fire, gang raping them, and then abducting more than 100 back to Gaza.

Now that they're safely back on their home turf, they're hiding behind civilians, in residential neighborhoods, in schools, in hospitals, while preventing civilians from leaving, all in violation of societal norms and the laws of war.

You refuse to admit that they're committing war crimes, and instead trivialize what they did by comparing them to fictitious villains. (A better comparison would be the Nazis, but even that's incomplete- the Nazis tried to hide their crimes. Hamas recorded them and shared them to the world.)

The most eye opening thing going on that's taking place all over the world is the sickness of the "international left", who for reasons known only to themselves, are siding with Hamas. The lunatic genocidal terrorist group.

And you have the nerve to talk to me about "The military agenda of Israel"?

What the hell is the matter with you? Seriously.

Hmm, I see that I didn’t signal my disdain for Hamas enough therefore it was safe to assume that I think they are the good guys, I guess. Fine, most people would be absolutely repulsed and horrified by what I think are means and measures that would be justifiable to eliminate Hamas. I have no love for Hamas. I served in Afghanistan, I have a not especially unique first-hand experience of the toll that war took on us and the price we exacted on that region. None of this to me changes the fact that Gaza is one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world. Attempting to contextualize that in such a way so as to minimize the fact that military strikes against Hamas in Gaza means bringing to bear all manner of spectacularly destructive weaponry onto one of the most heavily populated urban areas in the world is just spin. Of course Israel has a military agenda, given the circumstances it would be absurd for them not to, what's so despicable about calling it what it is? War sucks, civilians die in the best of circumstances and terrorists use meat shields. Do we have to pretend that what we do, the collateral civilian life that we are militarily willing to live with in order to accomplish military objectives does not exist? Or should we acknowledge what the price of war is?. Being real about the costs doesn't mean that you do not pay the price (I never even implied that, you assumed), it means that you aren't being delusional about it just because it is tragically expensive. Gaza is one of the most populous urban arenas in the world, there is going to be so much death, that is not up for debate. In my opinion anything short of plainly acknowledging that is spin so that we don't have to face what this really means and make the hard decision to say I support this with the massive bodycount and all. I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings or frustrated you Fenris, but I do not agree with you on this one. Gaza is going to be a bloodbath because it has world class population density, stomach that or don’t but it is exactly what it is. btw i'm fine with it, always was.

EDIT: in the hopes of being understood,if not agreed with.

To be clear I accused you of attempting to minimize the fact that Gazas population is one of the densest in the world in order to justify the military agenda of israel because after your initial post I saw how much you were focused on identifying the reasons why Hamas is an existential threat whose actions were morally indefensible. Initially I thought you made a simple statistics mistake...and said as much. However (and perhaps it is due to a lack of imagination on my part) I find it unreasonable to conclude that you have focused on these aforementioned facts in subsequent posts in response to my post about the population density of Gaza without being motivated by a desire to justify the proposed military actions aimed at Hamas. You did not argue that it was irrational based on a contextually relevant analysis of the statistics to consider the 63rd most dense population on a list of millions to be one of the most dense on such a list, your arguments were predominantly focused on the atrocity of Hamas' actions, or why my decision to point out the error in your critique of the statement in the article was at best callous and at worst akin to supporting Hamas. This is a thread about our perception of media lies/spins/misrepresents, and I thought it relevant to point out how we approach the media with our own biases, emotions and desires in order to illustrate my opinion that we are culpable to some degree in our media landscape in part because we demand that the media craft the delivery of a simple statistic in a manner that aligns with our notions of how statistics should reflect the repugnant nature or the righteous goals of the human enterprises that they attempt to quantify. I see the rhetorical value that calibrating the context of this stat has in this circumstance, I just do not personally value it, I personally think it is dangerous and is in essence another shovel load that just digs us deeper into this hole that everyone cleary finds objectionable. Your crisis and the plight of your people isn't completely lost on me, though I won't disrespect you by pretending that I feel what you feel and I do not have the words to explain how & why I literally cannot. I think we are both old enough to have seen that terrorists exploit this exact aspect of human nature to great effect in order to push us further into a wilderness of mirrors. I think you are not alone in finding yourself swept up in contortions that are entirely unnecessary for justifying actions that don't really need it, and only serve to either perpetuate an ideological immaturity regarding war and the business of killing or delude us into superficial narratives that make us feel better about it. I hope that with this you can at least see that i'm not some kind of enemy to you in this.

[Rebecca]

  ...   Gaza is going to be a bloodbath because it has world class population density, stomach that or don’t but it is exactly what it is. btw i'm fine with it, always was.

Gaza will be a bloodbath because ....
Hamas has dismissed Israel’s orders for Palestinians to evacuate the northern half of the Strip and is telling residents to stay put.

[Oscar_Kipling]

  ...   Gaza is going to be a bloodbath because it has world class population density, stomach that or don’t but it is exactly what it is. btw i'm fine with it, always was.

Gaza will be a bloodbath because ....
Hamas has dismissed Israel’s orders for Palestinians to evacuate the northern half of the Strip and is telling residents to stay put.

omg... yes of course I forgot that I absolutely have to end every sentence with Carthage must be destroyed! or else it means I think Hamas is cool beans and Israel is mean. Welp, i'm off to go eat some freedom fries now.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, your conduct is way over the line in this thread, and if I were Rebecca or Fenris, I'd be far more ticked off (rightly), which is to say I think they've been conservative. Fenris especially, who has just experienced the worst, senseless, malicious, unnecessary killing of Jewish people since WWII. I mean, honestly, now it's working me up. How could it not? We're talking about a terrorist organisation and (elected) political group that denies the holocaust and says they'd do it for real. And what do they do? They start doing it for real.

"Hamas is mean like Joker". Seriously? How flippant can you be? Unreal. If I said that, I'd get over the hangover and apologise to Fenris because surely I'd have been drunk to type that out, oh great intellectual.

Since tensions are running high with everyone, I'm going to give the thread a break. Please do not spill over into other threads, or I'll start giving accounts a break. I'll re-open the thread in a day or two.

in fairness to me, the joker is one of the meanest batman villains is he not?

[Rebecca]

  ...   Gaza is going to be a bloodbath because it has world class population density, stomach that or don’t but it is exactly what it is. btw i'm fine with it, always was.

Gaza will be a bloodbath because ....
Hamas has dismissed Israel’s orders for Palestinians to evacuate the northern half of the Strip and is telling residents to stay put.

omg... yes of course I forgot that I absolutely have to end every sentence with Carthage must be destroyed! or else it means I think Hamas is cool beans and Israel is mean. Welp, i'm off to go eat some freedom fries now.

  Never did i say what you are implying very ,liberal  with another thoughts

[Oscar_Kipling]

  ...   Gaza is going to be a bloodbath because it has world class population density, stomach that or don’t but it is exactly what it is. btw i'm fine with it, always was.

Gaza will be a bloodbath because ....
Hamas has dismissed Israel’s orders for Palestinians to evacuate the northern half of the Strip and is telling residents to stay put.

omg... yes of course I forgot that I absolutely have to end every sentence with Carthage must be destroyed! or else it means I think Hamas is cool beans and Israel is mean. Welp, i'm off to go eat some freedom fries now.

  Never did i say what you are implying very ,liberal  with another thoughts

fair enough, you didn't, I just assumed, i'm sorry.