Joe Biden considering plea deals for 9/11 planners

[Fenris]

That is a true and correct analysis.

A God that would do that is, in my humble opinion, not worth worshipping.

[RabbiKnife]

Understood.

By contrast, a God that would sacrifice Himself for His own rebellious creation is a God of such love and mercy and grace that it surpasses my imagination.

That God, would, by definition, be worthy of all worship.

This is why it is a good thing that God is God and that I am not...

[Fenris]

By contrast, a God that would sacrifice Himself for His own rebellious creation is a God of such love and mercy and grace that it surpasses my imagination.

But the sacrifice isn't for all of those created. Just those who believe in the "good news". This is one of those things that might sound good until one looks at the details. My grandfather and grandmother came from large Hasidic families. Families that were murdered in their entirety by the Nazis. And somehow, they're in hell for all eternity while their murderers, being "good Christians" who when they weren't murdering people attended mass and celebrated Christmas and Easter, are all basking in God's presence. 

The principal of my children's grade school was a Holocaust survivor. He was a young boy at the time. He was spared death because he was useful. He would go into the room where people undressed before going into the gas chamber. He would gather and sort their clothes. Once someone had written on the wall "Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the earth".

Justice falls by the wayside. Mercy has murdered justice.

Abraham's challenge to God remains unanswered by you: "Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will the Judge of all the earth not do justice?”

[RabbiKnife]

The idea of limited atonement only for those who believe is a Calvinist interpretation that I adamantly reject.


The idea of universal atonement, that sin is dealt with once and for all, is a biblical interpretation, I believe.

No sin survives the price being paid.

Whether one takes advantage of that gift is an entirely different issue

[Rebecca]

Each day they are alive there is the opportunity for the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin and draw them to repentance and faith.

That is an outcome for which we are commanded to pray, as offensive and grotesque as that may be to our flesh.

A judge and jury are not capable of thwarting God's plan.

[Fenris]

The idea of limited atonement only for those who believe is a Calvinist interpretation that I adamantly reject.


The idea of universal atonement, that sin is dealt with once and for all, is a biblical interpretation, I believe.

No sin survives the price being paid.

Whether one takes advantage of that gift is an entirely different issue

Pretty words.

But you haven't addressed anything that I said.

[RabbiKnife]

Justice is already satisfied by Jesus’ sacrifice

Your theology teaches you that man pays for his own sin
Mine says that no man can pay for his own sin

That’s the difference

You see Justice from a human perspective
I see Justice from God’s perspective

And that’s not an argument invoking a higher authority

I mean both of those from an objective position

[Fenris]

Justice is already satisfied by Jesus’ sacrifice

That's not justice. You can call it "justice". But it is not. Punishing a third party for one's sins against another person fits no definition of the word "justice".

Your theology teaches you that man pays for his own sin

It's not my "theology". It's the bible. Plain text.

Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6 Fathers must not be put to death for their children, and children must not be put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin

2 Chronicles 24:5 Fathers must not be put to death for their children, and children must not be put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin

Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

You see Justice from a human perspective
I see Justice from God’s perspective

I just cited God's perspective.


And I have to tell you, if your beliefs were correct, and my choice was eternity with my dead relatives or eternity with the people who murdered them, it isn't even a choice for me. I know who I'd rather be with. Why would you choose to be with such people?

[RabbiKnife]

I choose to be with Jesus

And all of your understanding of the Bible is subjective just as is mine.

We interpret texts with all the baggage we bring to them

[RabbiKnife]

And if God chooses to do anything, it is by definition “just.”

God does not answer to us or to our explanations or expectations

[Fenris]

I choose to be with Jesus

And Nazi murderers? Enjoy.

And all of your understanding of the Bible is subjective just as is mine.

I thought those verses were perfectly self explanatory.

[Fenris]

And if God chooses to do anything, it is by definition “just.”

Yeah but God also imparts his definition of "justice" in the bible. And it doesn't involve punishing unrelated third parties. That sounds more like Hammurabi's code than the bible

God does not answer to us or to our explanations or expectations

I beg to differ. God has responsibilities, just as man does. 

[RabbiKnife]

God is sovereign.  He is judged only by Himself, not by our understanding of Him or of what we believe He has revealed of Himself to us.  He is infinite; we are finite.  God has responsibilities, certainly, but only to Himself. 

The New Testament clearly defines justice for human's sin as being properly executed by Jesus dying for humanity's sins.

1 Peter 3:18 and following explicitly explains it.  "18 For Christ also [m]suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the [n]spirit; 19 in

• which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [p]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

As Christians understand Scripture, God has explicitly chosen that Jesus would freely sacrifice Himself as one sacrifice, once for all time, as the perfect Passover Lamb, thus paying the penalty of sin for all time.  Thus, justice is satisfied as God -- as seen in the New Testament -- sees justice.

I understand that you do not accept the New Testament as holy writ; thus, the differences between Christianity and Judaism.

See also Collossians 1:22 and Hebrews 9:26-28

I am also struck by the phrase "And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" from Isaiah 53.  Now, I believe from previous posts that you interpret the "he" to be national Israel; however, it reads a bit funny to say "the Lord has laid on national Israel the iniquity of some third party".  Said another way, there seems to be a subject/object distinction between "him" and "us all", in which the "him" -- whoever that is, is being subjected to the iniquity of a third party.

That would seem to violate your previously set forth definition of justice.

[Fenris]

The New Testament clearly defines justice for human's sin as being properly executed by Jesus dying for humanity's sins.

Which I have no reason to accept.

And it isn't in my bible.

And it isn't justice.

As Christians understand Scripture, God has explicitly chosen that Jesus would freely sacrifice Himself as one sacrifice, once for all time, as the perfect Passover Lamb

The Passover lamb wasn't even a sin sacrifice.

I am also struck by the phrase "And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" from Isaiah 53. 

Could alternatively be translated "and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us." Which sounds... very different.

[RabbiKnife]

Well, then, here we are.