Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Athanasius]

I'm not talking about the belief that a covenant took place, I'm talking about the proof of the covenant.

The proof of the covenant is also subjective. It requires that one believe the veracity of the bible.

I'm talking about the proof of the covenant, as in the proof itself that would exist out there in the world independent of human minds. Do you believe such a thing has never existed?

[Fenris]

as in the proof itself that would exist out there in the world independent of human minds.

I don't understand what this means "independent of human minds."

[Sojourner]

Doctrinal differences aside, I think we can agree that the design and workings of God can exist even without someone to believe in them. Yet, I think we can also agree that faith is fundamental to our relationship with God and that without it, there would be a basis for neither Judaism nor Christianity. The provenience upon which both faiths are founded is God's personal word, and our convictions regarding it. If we did not believe in our hearts what we believe about God, we would not concern ourselves with spiritual matters.

Consider that Abram was born and raised in an environment steeped in paganism and idolatry, and knew nothing about the one true God of Creation until God revealed Himself by means of His word. That was the origin of Judaism, as well as that of Christianity and Islam, which sprouted from the same Abrahamic roots. Whether God reveals Himself interactively as He did with Abram, by means of His recorded word, or through the testimony of someone else, the bedrock of our relationship with God is His grace, our confidence in the veracity of that revelation, and the under girding strength of our convictions.

Jews cannot prove Abram actually existed 4000 years ago, or that God established a covenant with him. All beliefs are predicated on the record of the torah. There are historical accounts of Jesus as leader of a Jewish sect, but Christians cannot prove He is the messiah, or that He was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. We must rely on the written account of the NT for the supernatural aspects of His person. In the final analysis, each faith is on an equal footing, drawing upon an unwavering faith in the God we trust. The truths we hold onto will one day be either justified or corrected.

[Fenris]

Jews cannot prove Abram actually existed 4000 years ago, or that God established a covenant with him. All beliefs are predicated on the record of the torah. There are historical accounts of Jesus as leader of a Jewish sect, but Christians cannot prove He is the messiah, or that He was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. We must rely on the written account of the NT for the supernatural aspects of His person. In the final analysis, each faith is on an equal footing, drawing upon an unwavering faith in the God we trust.

I agree. And I'll go one step further. I believe that it is also impossible to prove God's existence. And that all this is by design. God has created a playground, if you will, to give humanity the greatest possible freedom in which to exercise our free will.

[Rebecca]

Jews cannot prove Abram actually existed 4000 years ago, or that God established a covenant with him. All beliefs are predicated on the record of the torah. There are historical accounts of Jesus as leader of a Jewish sect, but Christians cannot prove He is the messiah, or that He was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. We must rely on the written account of the NT for the supernatural aspects of His person. In the final analysis, each faith is on an equal footing, drawing upon an unwavering faith in the God we trust.

I agree. And I'll go one step further. I believe that it is also impossible to prove God's existence. And that all this is by design. God has created a playground, if you will, to give humanity the greatest possible freedom in which to exercise our free will.

We are created for His pleasure.

[Sojourner]

Jews cannot prove Abram actually existed 4000 years ago, or that God established a covenant with him. All beliefs are predicated on the record of the torah. There are historical accounts of Jesus as leader of a Jewish sect, but Christians cannot prove He is the messiah, or that He was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. We must rely on the written account of the NT for the supernatural aspects of His person. In the final analysis, each faith is on an equal footing, drawing upon an unwavering faith in the God we trust.

I agree. And I'll go one step further. I believe that it is also impossible to prove God's existence. And that all this is by design. God has created a playground, if you will, to give humanity the greatest possible freedom in which to exercise our free will.

Very true. Out of 8 billion people, only a tiny fraction believes in the one true God, and and we can but maintain our convictions and stand on our faith when the unbelieving world questions the reality of His existence. It's even more challenging to validate our faith to the unbelieving when we face unrelenting sorrow, sickness, and death. "Where is your God, now?" Yet, true faith is unwavering and unconditional, and as gold is tried by fire, faith is purified and proven genuine in the fires of adversity.

[Athanasius]

as in the proof itself that would exist out there in the world independent of human minds.

I don't understand what this means "independent of human minds."

It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

[Fenris]

Yet, true faith is unwavering and unconditional, and as gold is tried by fire, faith is purified and proven genuine in the fires of adversity.

It isn't faith that matters, but our actions. However, I suppose this is another one of those instances in which we must agree to disagree...

[Fenris]

It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

But a tree's existence is provable. One can see it. "Ligget se'".

[Athanasius]

It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

But a tree's existence is provable. One can see it. "Ligget se'".

Yes, and back when the covenant with Abraham was made, the voice Abraham heard was just as real as the thicket he saw?

[Sojourner]

Yet, true faith is unwavering and unconditional, and as gold is tried by fire, faith is purified and proven genuine in the fires of adversity.

It isn't faith that matters, but our actions. However, I suppose this is another one of those instances in which we must agree to disagree...

Well, I would hope you agree it doesn't make sense to obey God's commandments unless you first believe He exists. And that my friend, requires faith.

[RabbiKnife]

Eyewitness or ear witness testimony is evidence.

[Fenris]

Yes, and back when the covenant with Abraham was made, the voice Abraham heard was just as real as the thicket he saw?

It was real to him. But that's subjective.

[Fenris]

Well, I would hope you agree it doesn't make sense to obey God's commandments unless you first believe He exists

What if one isn't sure, but does it out of caution? Or what if one thinks they're a good idea even if they don't believe in God?

[Fenris]

Eyewitness or ear witness testimony is evidence.

In a court of law.

And that doesn't apply to supernatural or extraordinary claims.

And where religion is concerned, we don't even have that. What we have are books, which, (being the good lawyer that you are) know can't be cross examined.