Matthew 23:35

[RabbiKnife]

Of course, we consider the New Testament writings to be inspired, so there is that.

[Fenris]

Of course you do. But that doesn't mean that every conclusion a Christian arrives at after reading a given text is itself inspired (or correct!)

[RabbiKnife]

Never suggested any such things.

The walk of faith, as Abraham found out, is fraught with questions, doubts, and misconceptions.

(NO, I cannot believe I just used "Abraham" and "misconceptions" in the same sentence.

Bad, lawyer.  Bad.

 

[Fenris]

Never suggested any such things.

So it's possible that the standard Christian understanding of Isaiah 53 is incorrect. That might be true even if Christianity as a whole turns out to be correct.

The walk of faith, as Abraham found out, is fraught with questions, doubts, and misconceptions.

Yup. Possibly by design.

[Sojourner]

Fenris, in Zechariah 13:7, God speaks of awakening a sword against His shepherd, against the man who is His associate. What is the Jewish understanding of the individual referred to?

[ProDeo]

Analysis Isaiah 53 through the eyes of the NT

Do you have any comments about how Jews see the chapter? Possible, impossible, delusional, crazy, what?

 

I am very well aware how you read Isa 53, it's not the first time we discuss it.

I just haven chosen a different approach, for your understanding that we are not iimpossible, delusional, crazy  and that we have chosen to believe the ancient Jewish NT writers.

[ProDeo]

Isaiah through the eyes of the NT authors (for a better understanding)

Matt 3:3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’”

Matt 4:12 Now when he [Jesus] heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee.
Matt 4:13 And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali,
Matt 4:14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
Matt 4:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
Matt 4:16 ​the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”

Matt 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Matt 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”

Matt 12:15 Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all
Matt 12:16 and ordered them not to make him known.
Matt 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah:
Matt 12:18 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Matt 12:19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;
Matt 12:20 a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory;
Matt 12:21 ​and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

Matt 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matt 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
Matt 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

Matt 15:7  You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
Matt 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Matt 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

-----

This is only the gospel of Matthew.

[Fenris]

Fenris, in Zechariah 13:7, God speaks of awakening a sword against His shepherd, against the man who is His associate. What is the Jewish understanding of the individual referred to?

Well, as you all know, I'm a big fan of context. So let's find some.

Zech 13- On that day, a spring shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned. And also the prophets and the spirit of contamination I will remove from the earth.

This chapter is not talking about something that happened 2000 years ago. This is a yet to happen event. It's talking about something that still lies in our future. The prophets in this verse can only be false prophets as they are mentioned with the "spirit of contamination". Similarly in verse 4 we see "And it shall come to pass on that day that the prophets shall be ashamed.." because they were not real prophets.

So lets look at verse 7.

"O sword, awaken against My shepherd and against the man who is associated with Me! says the Lord of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the flock shall scatter..."

Who is this shepherd? Again, this is a yet to happen event. Jewish commentators would say that this shepherd is the gentile kings, who were given the job to be a good shepherd, as God is, but instead have oppressed the Jewish people.

And we need to look no further than Zechariah chapter 11 for more evidence of this fact.

Verse 15 and on- And the LORD said to me: “Take up once more the equipment of a foolish shepherd. For behold, I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will neither care for the lost, nor seek the young, nor heal the broken, nor sustain the healthy, but he will devour the flesh of the choice sheep and tear off their hooves. Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May a sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered and his right eye utterly blinded!”

The shepherd isn't benevolent. The shepherd doesn't care for the flock. That's why God sends the sword against him.

[Fenris]

we have chosen to believe the ancient Jewish NT writers.

Truthfully, we do not know who wrote the NT. Or when. Or even where. You may claim that it is attributed to Jews. But no more than that.

And I have plenty of Jewish writings of known source. Writings that show a vibrant Jewish religion that is "complete" without Christianity.

[Fenris]

Isaiah through the eyes of the NT authors (for a better understanding)

I am aware of all this.

Unfortunately, he's doing the same thing. Ignoring context. "Here's a verse that proves something". Great. What about the rest of the chapter? The rest of the book?

[Fenris]

Isaiah through the eyes of the NT authors (for a better understanding)

Let's go over this verse by verse.

Matt 3:3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’”

Saying that it applies to someone does not mean that it actually applies to that person. This only works if one considers the words in question to be holy writ. If one does not, it's not a proof of anything. It's meaningless.

Matt 4:12 Now when he [Jesus] heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee.
Matt 4:13 And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali,
Matt 4:14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
Matt 4:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
Matt 4:16 ​the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”

The same applies here. Doubly, that it actually uses the words "that it might be fulfilled". The author is not telling a story anymore; he's trying to prove a point.

Matt 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Matt 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”

And same. The author is trying very hard. Too hard.

Matt 12:15 Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all
Matt 12:16 and ordered them not to make him known.
Matt 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah:
Matt 12:18 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

The word "gentile" appears nowhere in the Hebrew bible.

Let's talk about chapters. Chapters are a relatively modern invention. They were not added until the 1200s. Prior to that, each book in the bible was just one long scroll. When we read the bible we need to keep that in mind.

This quote is from Isaiah 42:1.

So first of all, the previous chapter explicitly identifies the servant by name. "But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me..." Notice how it also uses the same verbiage "Whom I have chosen".

Next, let's look further in chapter 42. God makes the following statement about His servant: "Who is blind but My servant, and deaf as My messenger whom I will send? " Was Jesus deaf and blind, even in a metaphorical sense?

It's much simpler and logical to read the scroll as the servant in the verse "But you, Israel My servant..." is the same servant 22 verses later when God says "Behold My servant..." Who is the same servant mentioned 18 verses later "Who is blind but My servant..." than to say that God changes who the servant is, twice, in just 40 verses.

Matt 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables,

So the fate of our eternal soul is dependent upon us following a riddle? At least my bible is clear on what God expects from us.

Matt 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”

This is quoting Isaiah 6:9. Two verses later: And I said, "Until when, O Lord?" And He said, "Until cities be desolate without inhabitant and houses without people, and the ground lies waste and desolate." Which was fulfilled long before Jesus, in 586BC actually.

Matt 15:7  You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
Matt 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Matt 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This is from Isaiah 29. The chapter begins "Woe, Ariel, Ariel, the city wherein David encamped!" and "And I will encamp in a circle upon you, and I will besiege you with a camp of siege, and I will erect upon you siege works." etc etc. It's a warning to that generation, not a prophecy of some distant time.

This is only the gospel of Matthew.

The other gospels aren't any different in this regard.

[Sojourner]

The shepherd isn't benevolent. The shepherd doesn't care for the flock. That's why God sends the sword against him.

As you know, a fundamental tenet of Christianity is that Jesus suffered God's wrath in the place of the transgressors. I believe that is the sword God wielded against Him. It correlates to the cup of wrath Jesus struggled with the night He was arrested.

A question that must be answered is, why would God refer to a malevolent, irresponsible scoundrel as "my shepherd," and "the man who is my associate"? Whether rendered "neighbor," "fellow," "companion," "friend," or "associate," the Hebrew noun עָמִית speaks of a close relationship between God and the smitten shepherd. As God's ultimate Passover lamb, Jesus embodies the premise of God striking down one He favors in order to preserve those who deserve His wrath.

It's no coincidence that Jesus applied Zechariah 13:7 to Himself in the garden of Gethsemane, telling His Apostles they would all fall away that night because of Him. Sure enough, after His arrest and crucifixion, the Apostles scattered in disarray like sheep without a shepherd.

[Fenris]

As you know, a fundamental tenet of Christianity is that Jesus suffered God's wrath in the place of the transgressors.

I am well aware.

But the idea doesn't exist in Judaism.

The Hebrew bible is long enough, and vague enough, that one can find such references if they look hard enough. But it doesn't mean that they're there or that Judaism should retroactively apply such concepts, or abandon their faith and become Christian.

I believe that is the sword God wielded against Him. It correlates to the cup of wrath Jesus struggled with the night He was arrested.

And you are free to believe this. But as I pointed out, the context of the chapter makes it plain that this is a yet to happen event. Verse 2: And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of Hosts: I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no longer be mentioned.
Did this happen 2,000 years ago? Has it happened yet?

A question that must be answered is, why would God refer to a malevolent, irresponsible scoundrel as "my shepherd," and "the man who is my associate"? Whether rendered "neighbor," "fellow," "companion," "friend," or "associate," the Hebrew noun עָמִית speaks of a close relationship between God and the smitten shepherd.

So as I am sure you know, in ancient times, and even into the middle ages, there was the concept of "divine right rule". God appointed men to be rulers. Its roots are in the bible. So yes, God appointed these kings to be "His shepherd" only instead of being a responsible and compassionate shepherd, as God is, they oppressed their subjects. Just like the shepherd in Zech 11. 

As God's ultimate Passover lamb, Jesus embodies the premise of God striking down one He favors in order to preserve those who deserve His wrath.

The passover lamb was not a sin sacrifice though.

It's no coincidence that Jesus applied Zechariah 13:7 to Himself in the garden of Gethsemane

Just because someone applies a bible verse to a person or situation does not mean that the verse is about that person or situation. There is no reason to believe that this verse is about the messiah, apart from you saying so.

[Rebecca]

@Fenris ?  With no Temple and no high priest what are your views on sin?  What are your views on dying in sin? Do you believe there is such a 'thing' as sin? Do you keep 'the ten" ?
 

[Fenris]

@Fenris ?

Hello, Rebecca. I can see that you're new here. Welcome on board. I'm the resident crazy Jewish guy who surfed on in sometime in 2005 and decided to stay for a while. Made some great friends, learned a whole lot about Christianity, and had some fantastic intellectual discussions along the way.

So on to your questions, which reasonable questions coming from someone with limited exposure to Judaism and Jewish thinking.

  With no Temple and no high priest what are your views on sin?

The temple and the high priest have nothing to do with sin. Sin is doing something contrary to God's commands in the bible. Now, if you're asking about how to atone from sin, that is a valid question.

So, first some ground rules. Even sacrifices did not atone for all sins. The bible is very clear on this. Read Leviticus. There are only sacrifices for inadvertent or accidental sins. Intentional, willful sins cannot me atoned for by any sacrifice.  Numbers 15 talks about the sacrifices for accidental sin. Then we come to verse 30 reads "’But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel." No sacrifice.

Then two verses later, we come to the man who gathered wood on the Sabbath, thus violating God's law. What was his punishment? Verse 35: "The Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; the entire congregation shall pelt him with stones outside the camp." No sacrifice.

OK, having said that, does the bible give us other methods of atonement? For deliberate sins? For sins that took place between 586BC when the first temple was destroyed and 516BC when the second temple was rebuilt? For sins that took place after the year 70, when the second temple was destroyed? Woud I be asking this question if the answer wasn't "yes"? 

OK, so first some biblical verses that tell us that sacrifice isn't the end all and be all.

"In sacrifice and offering, you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required." (Psalms 40:6)

"For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalms 51:16-17)

For I desire steadfast love, and not sacrifice; the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

"Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, 'Take away all iniquity; accept what is good; instead of bulls we offer our lips.'" (Hosea 14:3) "Bulls of our lips" meaning prayer.

King Solomon's prayer upon dedicating the temple in Jerusalem-

“When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to their enemies, who take them captive to their own lands, far away or near; and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’; and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name; then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause. And forgive your people, who have sinned against you; forgive all the offenses they have committed against you, and cause their captors to show them mercy; for they are your people and your inheritance, whom you brought out of Egypt, out of that iron-smelting furnace.

Or Jonah, in Nineveh 

Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.  Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”  The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

 When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink.  But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.  Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.


No sacrifice.

Or Daniel 4:27 Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue...

Proverbs 16:6 By loving devotion and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one turns aside from evil.

Provers 28:13 He who conceals his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them will find mercy...

Or Micah 6:

With what shall I come before the Lord
    and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
    with calves a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
    with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
    the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
 He has shown you, O man, what is good.
    And what does the Lord require of you?
To do justice and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly with your God.

Even the NT gets in on this concept. In Acts 8, Peter says "Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you..."

Do you keep 'the ten" ?

No. I keep "the 613".