Matthew 23:35

[Fenris]

It's just difficult to reconcile with my biased Christian perspective of angels.

Well, a fundamental aspect of Christian theology is that angels have free will. It then follows that they have distinct personalities and so would need permanent names. That doesn't feature in Judaism (or in the Jewish bible, either) and so is not an issue.

[Sojourner]

It's just difficult to reconcile with my biased Christian perspective of angels.

Well, a fundamental aspect of Christian theology is that angels have free will. It then follows that they have distinct personalities and so would need permanent names. That doesn't feature in Judaism (or in the Jewish bible, either) and so is not an issue.

Welcome back, buddy. Given the Jewish perspective of angels, I'm curious as to why Michael is called the "great prince" and seems to be Israel's designated guardian. Is that a title given to any angel who happens to be assigned that particular job?

[Fenris]

Welcome back, buddy.

Hiya!

Given the Jewish perspective of angels, I'm curious as to why Michael is called the "great prince" and seems to be Israel's designated guardian. Is that a title given to any angel who happens to be assigned that particular job?

As is understood by Jews, yes.

I think he's only mentioned once, in the last chapter of the book of Daniel. Angels do not play a large role in Jewish theology.

[Sojourner]

I know the modern Jewish understanding of Isaiah's suffering servant is that it's a personification of the nation of Israel. But that doesn't make sense to me, as the servant "bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors." How can Israel suffer vicariously for Israel?

[Fenris]

I know the modern Jewish understanding of Isaiah's suffering servant is that it's a personification of the nation of Israel.

Plus, the prophet identifies the servant by name numerous times between chapter 40 and chapter 52. For example,  Is 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

Is 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen

Is 44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are My servant, O Israel. I have made you, and you are My servant; O Israel, I will never forget you.

Is 45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel My chosen one

etc.

But that doesn't make sense to me, as the servant "bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors." How can Israel suffer vicariously for Israel?

OK, so we're going to have to take a step back here.

Who is the speaker in the majority of this chapter? You seem to think that it's Israel. But there's no reason to believe this. Let's go to the beginning of the chapter, which is really the end of chapter 52 (this is a terrible chapter break, by the way.) The chapter should really begin at 52:13, which reads "Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high." Now, obviously God is the speaker here, and he's talking about His servant (previously identified, above). The chapter concludes "So shall he startle many nations, Kings shall shut their mouths because of him; For that which had not been told them shall they see, And that which they had not heard shall they perceive."

Chapter 53 begins "Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?" Now, who is the speaker here? It's not God. Who else can it be? Why, it's the startled kings from the previous verse. They're talking about the hated Jews. "...he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account."

By verse 10 or perhaps 11, the speaker shifts back to God. So with this new understanding, the verse in question becomes "How does the nation of Israel intercede for the transgressors of the world?" And I can answer that one. Following Jeremiah 27, "... seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf", we pray for the countries in which we dwell. And more, on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, we ask God to forgive, not just our personal sins, but also the sins of the world.

[ProDeo]

And more, on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, we ask God to forgive, not just our personal sins, but also the sins of the world.

Hi Fenris, about the purple, is there an OT commandment to do so?

If not, it's still a great thing to do.

[Sojourner]

I understand your reasoning fenris, but Israel offering intercessory prayer for the nations doesn't square with the image of the servant suffering punishment vicariously, as Isaiah repeatedly depicts. Throughout its history, Israel has been punished for its own transgressions, not the those of the nations. Conversely, a fundamental tenet of Christianity is that Jesus suffered for the sins of the world, which dovetails with Isaiah's narrative. Also, it is Jesus who was pierced for those transgressions, both with nails and a Roman spear. It was Jesus who was silent before His accusers, both before the Sanhedrin and Pilate. It was Jesus who was assigned a grave with the wicked in being crucified with two malefactors, and it was He that was buried with the rich due to Joseph of Arimathea's intervention. Jesus fits the image of the servant much better than Israel, but, we'll agree to disagree.

On a related topic, I was surprised to learn that the Babylonian Talmud, the Targum Jonathan, the Zohar, and other influential Jewish writ contain references depicting the messiah as the suffering servant. So, early on, the Jews did make that connection. At what point was that interpretation abandoned for the prevailing modern perspective, and why?

[Fenris]

And more, on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, we ask God to forgive, not just our personal sins, but also the sins of the world.

Hi Fenris, about the purple, is there an OT commandment to do so?

We are called upon to be a light unto the nations (Isaiah 42) and kingdom of priests (Exodus 19). It is what we do.

[Fenris]

I understand your reasoning fenris, but Israel offering intercessory prayer for the nations doesn't square with the image of the servant suffering punishment vicariously, as Isaiah repeatedly depicts.

The servant does not suffer punishment vicariously. The whole idea that the servant does so is based on a mistranslation. 53:5 in Hebrew reads "from our transgressions" and not, as most Christian bibles translate it, "for our transgressions." "For" implies vicarious atonement. "From" simply means "we harmed the servant with our sins", which the nations of the world surely did when they persecuted Jews. The previous verse makes the point even clearer: " ...he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed." The nations of the world are admitting, "He wasn't smitten by God. He was smitten by us". And lets face it, haven't the nations treated the Jews abominably much of the time? If, in the end of days, the Jews were correct all along, isn't this exactly what the nations would be saying?

Throughout its history, Israel has been punished for its own transgressions, not the those of the nations.

Throughout its history, Israel was oppressed by the sins of the nations to which they were exiled.

Conversely, a fundamental tenet of Christianity is that Jesus suffered for the sins of the world,

Yes, I understand this. But forgive me, from the outside this logic is circular. How do we know Is 53 is about Jesus? Because he suffered for the sins of the world. And how do we know the messiah needs to suffer for the sins of the world? Because Is 53 says so. It's self referential and goes nowhere for me. There is no belief in Judaism that any person can atone for the sins of another by vicarious suffering.

Also, it is Jesus who was pierced for those transgressions

The word "pierced" appears nowhere in Hebrew in chapter 53.

It was Jesus who was silent before His accusers, both before the Sanhedrin and Pilate.

Depends on which particular Gospel one reads, and if one believes it to be holy writ.

I mean, he isnt quiet in John 18: Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.” When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby slapped him in the face. “Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded. “If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

and

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?” “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?” Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

And John 19 : Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Or Mark 14- Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Etc etc

 Regardless, verse 7 "like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought" reads the same is Psalm 44 "For it is for Your sake that we are killed all the time, that we are considered as sheep for the slaughter," where it is clearly talking about national Israel. And that exact phrase was used to describe the Jews murdered during the Holocaust "Like sheep to the slaughter".

It was Jesus who was assigned a grave with the wicked in being crucified with two malefactors, and it was He that was buried with the rich

Verse 7 reads "And he gave his grave to the wicked" i.e. buried with the wicked, which, the Jews certainly were. The second half of the verse is mistranslated (again!) however. It reads something more like "To the wealthy in his deaths", the last word being plural, perhaps meaning all manner of executions that were carried out against the members of national Israel.

On a related topic, I was surprised to learn that the Babylonian Talmud, the Targum Jonathan, the Zohar, and other influential Jewish writ contain references depicting the messiah as the suffering servant.

Amazingly, the Jewish writ containing these revelations can only be found on Christian websites. They don't exist in Jewish works.

So, early on, the Jews did make that connection. At what point was that interpretation abandoned for the prevailing modern perspective, and why?

How about...a Christian source? Origen, in the year 248: Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering...

[Sojourner]

You're right about the translations. I looked up several passages in the tanakh, and there are some really big differences.

[ProDeo]

Analysis Isaiah 53 through the eyes of the NT

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:  “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”   - [John 12:36-38]

And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” - Romans 10:15-16

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. - John 1:8-11

how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and  be treated with contempt? - [Mark 9:12]

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed - [1 Peter 2:24]

To be continued.

-------------

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;

For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. [1 Peter 2:25]

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. [Col 2:13-14]

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:
“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.

33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. [Acts 8:30-35]

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. [Matt 27:57-60]

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Jesus in Matt 20:28 - even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures [1 Cor 15:3-4]

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.  [Romans 5:12-15]

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. [Hebrews 9:28]

---------

Jesus Himself, his apostles, the NT authors (all Jews) take a difference stance at Isaiah 53

[Fenris]

Analysis Isaiah 53 through the eyes of the NT

Do you have any comments about how Jews see the chapter? Possible, impossible, delusional, crazy, what?



I've heard this many times. But go right ahead.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

You'll have to forgive me, but this seems trivial to me. Someone quoting a book they already read is not "fulfillment". It's like me buying a donkey and riding into Jerusalem, and then saying that I "fulfilled" a prophecy, when I did it deliberately to "fulfill" said prophecy.

And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” - Romans 10:15-16

This is also trivial, and could be applied to literally anyone at any time in human history. Imagine Karl Marx saying it.

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

But Jesus was not despised and rejected. He was by NT accounts quite popular. This verse would much more apply to Paul, whom no one believes was the messiah.

The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. - John 1:8-11

Again, I thought he was popular.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed - [1 Peter 2:24]

As noted above, this is a mistranslation. The Hebrew prefix מְ means "from", not "for". If you sin, and strike me, I am being hurt "from" your sin.

To be continued.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;

For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. [1 Peter 2:25]

Again, quoting a bible verse to prove one's self correct is not "fulfillment". I could apply this verse to myself, it doesn't make me the messiah.

and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

As above.

And this is not a great translation. The word being translated as "has laid" can also be translated as "prayer" (see Job 21:15 for example) and then the verse becomes "The Lord accepted his prayers for our sins" (Which we do yearly, as explained above).
 

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

I showed above how Jesus was not silent at his trial.

And this phrase was used to descibe how Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, "as lambs to the slaughter." In fact, the small number of Jews who did resist actually used this as a motivation, saying "Let us not go like lambs to the slaughter!"

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Again, "from", not "for".

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

This was discussed above. And the word "deaths" is plural.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Jesus in Matt 20:28 - even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

A "soul" is never offered for sin. A body is. The verse could be alternatively translated as "if his soul will acknowledge guilt. "

Jesus Himself, his apostles, the NT authors (all Jews) take a difference stance at Isaiah 53

Do they? That is not clear to me. At his death is anyone talking about Isaiah 53 being fulfilled?

[Fenris]

I must be honest, even if a were a Christian and believed that Jesus was God, and I also believed that Isaiah 53 is talking about the messiah, I do not see how to reconcile those two concepts in this chapter. The chapter is very clearly about a human being, not a god.

The meta question. Accepting that Jesus is God, coeternal with the Father, etc etc, how can God also be "God's servant"?

Starting in 52:13 (which is where 53 really begins), how can God prosper? How can God be lifted up? He's already God.

How can God's appearance be "marred"? He's God! How can He have an appearance at all? God specifically told Moses "No man can see Me and live."

"The Lord wished to crush him" God wanted to crush Himself?

"Therefore I will allot him a portion"  God is going to give stuff...to Himself?

It only makes sense if the chapter is about someone who isn't God.

[RabbiKnife]

Christians reconcile these disparate ideas through the concepts of Trinity and the hypostatic union.

[Fenris]

Christians reconcile these disparate ideas through the concepts of Trinity and the hypostatic union.

Yeah I get that. But it means introducing even more ideas that aren't in the bible, just to reconcile something that doesn't need to be reconciled. Just say it's referring to national Israel. Problem solved! (I know at least a couple of Christian commentators actually do this).