No disrespect meant, but an observation I've made

[Fenris]

After many (many many!) years of lurking in Christian message boards, I've made the following observation (and no disrespect meant, I love you guys, honestly)-

There are some Christians who imaginatively will find Jesus in each and every verse in the bible. It doesn't matter what the topic is. It's all Jesus, all the time.

For the pragmatic among you, I have to say, it doesn't help your cause. The opposite, it makes it look like you're trying too hard. And worse, it makes any proof text suspect because every verse is now a proof text, which also means that none of them are.

I helpfully made a meme for your amusement and enjoyment.

[RabbiKnife]

A great deal of this is the result of :
a.  bad preaching
b.  more bad preaching
c.  did I mention bad preaching?

Proper reading and exposition of the New Testament text is a very demanding task, and laziness leads to bumper sticker theology that is often then promulgated into "gospel". 

[Fenris]

Proper reading and exposition of the New Testament text is a very demanding task, and laziness leads to bumper sticker theology that is often then promulgated into "gospel".

I understand that.

It's just such a bizarre way to "prove" something. It's almost as if the people who do it are themselves weak in faith, and that's who they're really trying to convince.

[Fenris]

Did you like my meme at least? 

[RabbiKnife]

Oy vey, who am I to disagree with a man with a space laser, nu?

[Oscar_Kipling]

I bet bad preaching has something to do with it, though I think this bad preaching is promulgated by the fact that some Christians believe that the words on the page don't transmit the full message of the bible. In fact the words on the page will not or should not appear as reasonable, logical or compelling without a supernatural reading method. So they are in a place where  they must use some supernatural phenomena to extract the true meaning of what they are reading and this individual supernatural phenomena doesn't really have a mechanism for validation and any criticism of their supernatural interpretation is explained away as the critic failing to use the supernatural method and therefore see the true meaning of the passage as foolishness or at the very least incorrect. It's pretty obvious to me that if you have a great many folks believing that they have an individual personal supernatural mechanism for discovering the truth and that this truth cannot be understood or accepted by anyone not using this particular supernatural method and that the truth they extract is more likely than not to appear to disagree or be incongruous with the "plain reading", you will end up with a bunch of people that can find reference to Jesus anywhere despite what the words actually appear to be saying.

[Fenris]

It's pretty obvious to me that if you have a great many folks believing that they have an individual personal supernatural mechanism for discovering the truth and that this truth cannot be understood or accepted by anyone not using this particular supernatural method and that the truth they extract is more likely than not to appear to disagree or be incongruous with the "plain reading", you will end up with a bunch of people that can find reference to Jesus anywhere despite what the words actually appear to be saying.

Right, you get that every once in a while, too. "The holy spirit explained this to me". Followed immediately by "If you don't see it, it's because the holy spirit isn't communicating to you."

[teddyv]

Right, you get that every once in a while, too. "The holy spirit explained this to me". Followed immediately by "If you don't see it, it's because the holy spirit isn't communicating to you."

Every once in a while? Any time it gets into eschatology, that seems to be the stock response to support one's own speculation.

[Fenris]

Every once in a while? Any time it gets into eschatology, that seems to be the stock response to support one's own speculation.

Fair.

I tend to have those discussions less and so see it less.

[Oscar_Kipling]

It's pretty obvious to me that if you have a great many folks believing that they have an individual personal supernatural mechanism for discovering the truth and that this truth cannot be understood or accepted by anyone not using this particular supernatural method and that the truth they extract is more likely than not to appear to disagree or be incongruous with the "plain reading", you will end up with a bunch of people that can find reference to Jesus anywhere despite what the words actually appear to be saying.

Right, you get that every once in a while, too. "The holy spirit explained this to me". Followed immediately by "If you don't see it, it's because the holy spirit isn't communicating to you."

idk I feel like it's just beneath the surface of a large majority of what a lot (dare I say most) Christians assert even when they don't explicitly say it. From my perspective believing that you have a personal loving relationship with an all knowing all powerful entity who is incapable of lying and who is fundamentally mysterious and is known to fulfill his promises and prophecies in ways that don't apparently match the conditions set out in preceding texts, you are trapped in this state where you believe that everything must fit together, that any contradictions are illusory therefore the meaning of the sacred text cannot be incongruous with the meaning of other parts of the sacred text. Fortunately for many believers the meaning of the text is not bound to the words but to the transcendent abstruse spiritual meaning that is imparted by God himself to those that know him personally...like they do. Add onto this the idea that there are vile hidden forces constantly working to deceive them into believing that there are contradictions, that want to impress upon them that these things don't quite add up, that want to sew seeds of doubt...it makes doubt suspicious and every discrepancy is a possible trap set by evil beings that want nothing more than to see you tormented forever in the shadow of separation from the only true good in the universe. That puts a great deal of pressure on harmonizing any dissonance and creating a smooth narrative line where Jesus must have been foreshadowed and hinted at everywhere because the whole dang thing was leading up to his sacrifice. It strongly biases a person toward finding what must be in the text as opposed to what is in the text...personally this explains a lot of what Christians say and do that is in glaring conflict with reality and the text of the bible. Obviously this unfortunate trap isn't unique to Christians or religious people at all, but Christianity is one of the most meticulous examples a series of beliefs that reinforce each other in this way....even this post to many Christians is just an example of how the enemy has twisted my perception so that instead of seeing people with a spiritual connection receiving spiritual nourishment, I see people pinballing around a wilderness of mirrors.

[Fenris]

idk I feel like it's just beneath the surface of a large majority of what a lot (dare I say most) Christians assert even when they don't explicitly say it. From my perspective believing that you have a personal loving relationship with an all knowing all powerful entity who is incapable of lying and who is fundamentally mysterious and is known to fulfill his promises and prophecies in ways that don't apparently match the conditions set out in preceding texts, you are trapped in this state where you believe that everything must fit together, that any contradictions are illusory therefore the meaning of the sacred text cannot be incongruous with the meaning of other parts of the sacred text. Fortunately for many believers the meaning of the text is not bound to the words but to the transcendent abstruse spiritual meaning that is imparted by God himself to those that know him personally...like they do.

Yes. I believe the spiritualization of the text is a pretty common phenomenon. Which dovetails with my original comment. Ezekiel chapter 40-48 describe a third temple in Jerusalem. Having spiritualized the messianic prophecies to be applying to the word at large and not Jewish exiles returning to the holy land, it can only mean that the rebuilt temple...is actually Jesus! Yes, I've had people on the old BF tell me this.

Add onto this the idea that there are vile hidden forces constantly working to deceive them into believing that there are contradictions, that want to impress upon them that these things don't quite add up, that want to sew seeds of doubt...it makes doubt suspicious and every discrepancy is a possible trap set by evil beings that want nothing more than to see you tormented forever in the shadow of separation from the only true good in the universe.

And therefore, anyone not seeing the text exactly as they do must definitionally be twisted and evil. Doubly so if they doubt Jesus's divinity.

That puts a great deal of pressure on harmonizing any dissonance and creating a smooth narrative line where Jesus must have been foreshadowed and hinted at everywhere because the whole dang thing was leading up to his sacrifice. It strongly biases a person toward finding what must be in the text as opposed to what is in the text...personally this explains a lot of what Christians say and do that is in glaring conflict with reality and the text of the bible. Obviously this unfortunate trap isn't unique to Christians or religious people at all, but Christianity is one of the most meticulous examples a series of beliefs that reinforce each other in this way....even this post to many Christians is just an example of how the enemy has twisted my perception so that instead of seeing people with a spiritual connection receiving spiritual nourishment, I see people pinballing around a wilderness of mirrors.

This is an interesting way to look at it.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Yes. I believe the spiritualization of the text is a pretty common phenomenon. Which dovetails with my original comment. Ezekiel chapter 40-48 describe a third temple in Jerusalem. Having spiritualized the messianic prophecies to be applying to the word at large and not Jewish exiles returning to the holy land, it can only mean that the rebuilt temple...is actually Jesus! Yes, I've had people on the old BF tell me this. 

yeah, i've seen that one too...I do sort of miss the eclectic spread on the old BF.

And therefore, anyone not seeing the text exactly as they do must definitionally be twisted and evil. Doubly so if they doubt Jesus's divinity.

indeed, the actual dangers of the world stress me out, I cannot fathom what sort of state my mental health would be in if the world was also haunted by demons that are directly targeting me.

This is an interesting way to look at it.

I do my best to look at these things and think about them in as many ways as I can muster. I think your initial post was an interesting prompt, so i'm happy that you found my response interesting. I hope more people respond with their thoughts, this could be a very thought provoking thread.

[Athanasius]

A great deal of this is the result of :
a.  bad preaching
b.  more bad preaching
c.  did I mention bad preaching?

Proper reading and exposition of the New Testament text is a very demanding task, and laziness leads to bumper sticker theology that is often then promulgated into "gospel".

And yet Matthew 10:22 tells us "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Clearly, even those within the church make a mockery of Scripture in failing to exegete properly. The Bible is Jesus' book, of course, he's everywhere! Now I'm not saying you hate anyone who finds Jesus behind every verse, but I am saying that you hate anyone who finds Jesus behind every verse. For as Paul said, "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (1 Corinthians 2:19).

...too much?

[Oscar_Kipling]

A great deal of this is the result of :
a.  bad preaching
b.  more bad preaching
c.  did I mention bad preaching?

Proper reading and exposition of the New Testament text is a very demanding task, and laziness leads to bumper sticker theology that is often then promulgated into "gospel".

And yet Matthew 10:22 tells us "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Clearly, even those within the church make a mockery of Scripture in failing to exegete properly. The Bible is Jesus' book, of course, he's everywhere! Now I'm not saying you hate anyone who finds Jesus behind every verse, but I am saying that you hate anyone who finds Jesus behind every verse. For as Paul said, "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." (1 Corinthians 2:19).

...too much?

look, i'll be the first to admit that proper exegitation is a tricky balancing act, but before you pass judgement consider Genesis 40:16 "When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said unto Joseph, I also was in my dream, and, behold, I had three white baskets on my head", when you look at what your brothers have said here today can you honestly say that you have 3 baskets on your head? and if you do are they white?

[Fenris]

And yet Matthew 10:22 tells us "You will be hated by everyone because of me..."

This is another quote that can cause problems.

I've had members of the old BF tell me that Jews are hated as a punishment because they reject Jesus's divinity.

Which sets up a sort of logical go round. Christians are hated for following Jesus, but Jews are hated for not following Jesus. 

Uh, what?

The Bible is Jesus' book, of course, he's everywhere!

I don't think that this logically follows. And it makes it seem like you're trying too hard. This was why I started the topic in the first place. Again, using Numbers 20 as an example, why can't it be about Moses and that generation?  At the old BF people were literally inventing new translations of Hebrew words to "prove" their point. It verges on dishonesty.