What would that look like?

[ProDeo]

but I can tell you flat out that I am an atheist and I do not believe that there is anything for me to be restored to.

On a scale from 0% to 100%, how sure are you that there is no Creator?

100% ?

Note, I deliberately use the word Creator, someone Who set the Universe in motion. It's not about religion. Quite a difference.

[Kingfisher]

I'm also aware that the part of the human brain that causes people to limit sentence length or edit for succinctness

I read your posts and then hear the voice of my high school typing teacher telling the class to find the carriage return 

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, at the beginning of this thread, you suggested that your being an irritating person was not at the heart of why you get the hackles of Christians up. I was simply giving you my assessment of the main problem as I see it: you consistently denounce what we hold as sacred. You claim to be a former Christian, yet are now an atheist who renounces God, Christ, and the Christian faith. I made the mistake of thinking you were frequenting a Christian board because we have something you either miss or desire. But I suppose the storehouse of contempt you harbor leaves little room for such trite sentiment.

It was not my intent to hold out empathy, compassion and fellowship like a carrot on a stick. I was simply asking what your long term goal was, hoping it was restoration. Well, you put me in my place, and set me straight. You've made it clear you're only here to find fault, poke, prod, and otherwise amuse yourself. If you choose to be an enemy of the cross instead of being saved by it, that's your decision to make. But not believing in God won't not change the reality of the day of Judgment that awaits us all.

teddyV , Vhayes, Athanasius, firefighter....surely i'm forgetting folks (heck you might be one of them what with all the name changes over the years), but those are people that immediately stick out in my mind as Christians on the old forum who surprised me with their "walk" as it were. I admire(d) them and frequently think about our interactions even after all these years. I think about the wackos, the jerks and the folks with persecution complexes too (heck I still follow Keck on twitter, because everybody loves a good bonfire from time to time right?). My point, there is room for Christians to leave impressions on me, good ones & bad ones alike. There is room for me to see and admire things in christians that I do not see in myself. IOW I wasn't generalizing about seeing nothing desirable in any christians, I was speaking about you specifically and how you've shown me nothing that I wish to emulate, though you may surprise me one day. You seem to obligate yourself  to believing that I have a low opinion of all Christians because it has to be about me against Christianity and good and righteousness because you cannot allow for our contentiousness to be about us as individuals and our attitudes, behavior, immaturity and fragile egos...you refuse to take any meaningful credit for how you've contributed to the atmosphere of enmity between us.

I don't have a long term goal, I'm just talking about Christianity and Christians because it interests me and because its important...but of course for you if I'm not here to become a Christian then my motives must be base and pernicious and directed at hurting you & God and all things righteous...The enemy. You cannot see what you are smuggling in, either I look at you and find myself so enamored by the reflected glow of the love of Jesus Christ that you are clearly convinced is coming off of you like a shining beacon of hope, or I'm here seeking to trash the place...there is no room for you to consider that maybe you aren't being some great example, you can't imagine that you might not be drawing people into the faith by standing in stark contrast to "the world"...surely it's me who is full of pain and contempt so I am blind to the tough but fair Christ-love that you are absolutely overflowing with.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians living in a majority Christian country wielding a great deal of power and influence and far reaching platforms cannot see why Christianity and Christians would be important and interesting to a non-believer outside of either wanting to join up or wanting to wreak havoc...like maybe I have to live in a country where what Many Christians want and are actively attempting (and often succeeding) to make happen or prevent  through laws, in public places, in social infrastructure, in education, in entertainment, in business, in medicine, in reproduction & our personal sex lives and even in how we dress/present in public all does or has the potential to personally affect me, I have skin in this game...but that doesn't seem to occur to a person like you because you are so completely enamored with the idea that you are a brilliant example of the greatest choices a person can make or some kind of warrior fighting folks like me that push back against Christianity just for fun or out of bitterness and not because you are having an impact on my actual life. But w/e dollars to donuts all you will get out of this post is that I'm an angry ex-christian hell bent or demeaning glorious perfection and holiness for absolutely no discernable reason.

[Oscar_Kipling]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

Already found an answer on the why?

I've always had my thoughts on it, but i'm interested in what you think

I reversed the question and asked myself why I (as a Christian) would visit an ex-Christian or atheist forum, I can think of 4 reasons -

1. As Jesus said preach the Gospel, but He also said don't cast your pearls before the swines, experience learned me to follow His advice, meaning it's pointless, exceptions excluded.

2. To test my faith, is my faith (still) strong enough to survive? Opposition is strong over there.

3. In the hypothetical case my faith would be on the slippery slope (it isn't) I can imagine people would go there in search for a final answer.

4. To meet old friends.

And so I was wondering why you are here and perhaps option [2] and [4] are matches?

IOW, as an ex-Christian I am sure you have done your research thoroughly, like I did with my faith. And in the Christian life there are sometimes moments of doubt and I assume this is not different with agnostics, ex-Christians and even the most staunch atheists. With option [2] you can test if your beliefs are (still) strong enough to take away doubts you might have.

I'd bet you could think up more if you really tried. Anyway, yes, surely some part of it is interrogating my own beliefs and there are folks that I legitimately enjoy talking to. I also think it's an interesting topic, and an important one that has real effects in my society and life.  Sometimes I check in just to see what Christians are saying about this or that current event or to see what is percolating through the community, a barometer or thermometer of sorts. I've always preferred forums to getting into potentially difficult conversations with people that are close to me irl because If I am frank in the way I am here with my family I run the risk of hurting feelings or damaging those relationships, here I can be open and honest about what I think and the stakes are much lower in this regard. Additionally I wasn't especially surrounded by deep thinkers (or they weren't open about it) so the forums have generally been a place to find people that could more often get into things on more than a superficial level. It would also be fair to say that debates/discussions/arguments scratch an itch for me, and there is the creative writing aspect too. I work in a technical field so nearly all of the writing I do is very dry technical procedural stuff so stretching out with humor and imagination is nice....so you could say fun is part of it even though some people can't seem to separate the fact that I often enjoy it or derive satisfaction from it means that I'm trolling though having some fun with this and doing it just to make fun are not the same imo.

[Oscar_Kipling]

but I can tell you flat out that I am an atheist and I do not believe that there is anything for me to be restored to.

On a scale from 0% to 100%, how sure are you that there is no Creator?

100% ?

Note, I deliberately use the word Creator, someone Who set the Universe in motion. It's not about religion. Quite a difference.

I'm genuinely not trying to overcomplicate this, but it really does depend on the characteristics of the creator that is being conceived, some seem more likely than others or at the very least some are impervious to falsification. Generally speaking though I'm as sure that there aren't any gods as I am that there are no psychics, telekinetics, reincarnated people or kung fu masters that can remotely knock you out using Qi...so idk 93.67221%

[Oscar_Kipling]

I'm also aware that the part of the human brain that causes people to limit sentence length or edit for succinctness

I read your posts and then hear the voice of my high school typing teacher telling the class to find the carriage return 

lol I know, I know I only have 2 modes either i'm writing SOP's or i'm writing one long run on sentence with idiosyncratic punctuation that only makes sense to me and people that write letters to the editor in green ink and filled margins about how they have discovered a new type of multi-dimensional math that proves Einstein wrong once and for all! haha my writing style is rambling lunatic.

[Athanasius]

yeah I guess it could be, I hope Sojourner will clarify either way. thanks for your post btw I wanted to read up on J.L. mackie before I respond, not that I really have much to add to what you said.

He has fun take on Anselm's ontological argument that Plantinga goes after, and somewhere in there is the mention of nubile young women, or something to that effect. Oh no wait, that was Plantinga commenting on Gaunilo.

J.L. Mackie and Plantinga were the problem of evil, is what I should be thinking of. Vallicella discussed Mackie in brief on a blog post a few - err seven - years ago https://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2015/11/the-problem-of-evil-and-the-argument-from-evil.html. Mackie's The Miracle of Theism is probably a good book to look into.

[Athanasius]

teddyV , Vhayes, Athanasius, firefighter....surely i'm forgetting folks (heck you might be one of them what with all the name changes over the years), but those are people that immediately stick out in my mind as Christians on the old forum who surprised me with their "walk" as it were. I admire(d) them and frequently think about our interactions even after all these years...

Huh, I'm usually worried I come across as a know-it-all with a superiority complex.

I don't know, I haven't left the faith but I know what a fall from grace is like, but even before that I had a sense of "there but for the grace of God". I mean, anxiety before God in the Kierkegaardian sense of the word. I know what it's like to fake relationships with everyone, and what it means to be honest only to then be looked down on with suspicion, to be regarded with a lack of empathy and understanding, or to have Christians wonder if maybe I'm less mental struggle and more open rebellion (all for a choice of new necklines, obviously). I think that at the end of the day Jesus is going to care if I loved him and my neighbours and that's going to matter more than the propositions I assented to or the beliefs I held or the mistakes I made. You know, as long as I'm not currently persisting in an egregious sin in rebellion against God. Is it possible to be in such a state, not intend it, and not know it?

Anyway, writing this made me think of one of my favourite Christian songs that isn't:

When I was younger I used to pray that I would see people as God saw them, and I don't know if that one was answered but, well, here's me.

[Sojourner]

teddyV , Vhayes, Athanasius, firefighter....surely i'm forgetting folks (heck you might be one of them what with all the name changes over the years), but those are people that immediately stick out in my mind as Christians on the old forum who surprised me with their "walk" as it were. I admire(d) them and frequently think about our interactions even after all these years. I think about the wackos, the jerks and the folks with persecution complexes too (heck I still follow Keck on twitter, because everybody loves a good bonfire from time to time right?). My point, there is room for Christians to leave impressions on me, good ones & bad ones alike. There is room for me to see and admire things in christians that I do not see in myself. IOW I wasn't generalizing about seeing nothing desirable in any christians, I was speaking about you specifically and how you've shown me nothing that I wish to emulate, though you may surprise me one day. You seem to obligate yourself  to believing that I have a low opinion of all Christians because it has to be about me against Christianity and good and righteousness because you cannot allow for our contentiousness to be about us as individuals and our attitudes, behavior, immaturity and fragile egos...you refuse to take any meaningful credit for how you've contributed to the atmosphere of enmity between us.

I don't have a long term goal, I'm just talking about Christianity and Christians because it interests me and because its important...but of course for you if I'm not here to become a Christian then my motives must be base and pernicious and directed at hurting you & God and all things righteous...The enemy. You cannot see what you are smuggling in, either I look at you and find myself so enamored by the reflected glow of the love of Jesus Christ that you are clearly convinced is coming off of you like a shining beacon of hope, or I'm here seeking to trash the place...there is no room for you to consider that maybe you aren't being some great example, you can't imagine that you might not be drawing people into the faith by standing in stark contrast to "the world"...surely it's me who is full of pain and contempt so I am blind to the tough but fair Christ-love that you are absolutely overflowing with.

It never ceases to amaze me that Christians living in a majority Christian country wielding a great deal of power and influence and far reaching platforms cannot see why Christianity and Christians would be important and interesting to a non-believer outside of either wanting to join up or wanting to wreak havoc...like maybe I have to live in a country where what Many Christians want and are actively attempting (and often succeeding) to make happen or prevent  through laws, in public places, in social infrastructure, in education, in entertainment, in business, in medicine, in reproduction & our personal sex lives and even in how we dress/present in public all does or has the potential to personally affect me, I have skin in this game...but that doesn't seem to occur to a person like you because you are so completely enamored with the idea that you are a brilliant example of the greatest choices a person can make or some kind of warrior fighting folks like me that push back against Christianity just for fun or out of bitterness and not because you are having an impact on my actual life. But w/e dollars to donuts all you will get out of this post is that I'm an angry ex-christian hell bent or demeaning glorious perfection and holiness for absolutely no discernable reason.

I get that you don't like me, and that's fine. (I can't say you're my favorite, either). What I don't understand is the basis for your contention that I hold myself up as an extraordinary, exemplary Christian. I am acutely aware of my faults and failures, and hardly represent myself to be a shining example. But I'll spare you the insufferable pomposity you perceive in me by avoiding any further communication with you.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I get that you don't like me, and that's fine. (I can't say you're my favorite, either). What I don't understand is the basis for your contention that I hold myself up as an extraordinary, exemplary Christian. I am acutely aware of my faults and failures, and hardly represent myself to be a shining example. But I'll spare you the insufferable pomposity you perceive in me by avoiding any further communication with you.

avoid me if you like, but don't pretend its my choice, this is all you buddy. I do think you are pompous, I also think i'm pompous, so it's not as if I can't suffer it in you. You are so ready for me to want to throw you away as unworthy of my intellect or intolerable or a waste of time that this is the 3rd or 4th time you've threatened that you would remove yourself before I have the chance. It almost seems like you are afraid to find out what I'd really think of what you have to say, so you take any opportunity to accuse me of pushing you away when I can tolerate you just fine....even though you are pompous, overly sensitive, casually critical and humorless I would still listen and discuss your thoughts on God if you'd stop finding reasons why I won't or can't.

Given that this is what I see in you it should come as no surprise that 
I find it the idea that it would make sense for me to look at you and feel that you are enjoying a relationship with Christ that I would be desirous of to be implausible. If you didn't think that you had this relationship on display then I do not see how you expect that I might take notice of it. The thing is , when I look at you I don't see a person that is in intimate contact with the greatest being that could possibly exist, I see a person very much like myself right down to the fragile ego and tendency to see direct personal attacks, belittlement and criticism where there is none. I'm not better than you, i'm very much like you and if the impact that Christ has had in your life is to leave you basically like me then once again i'm not impressed at all, i'm already me. Now, lets see if you can try and not take this post as an invitation from me to fling yourself into a bottomless pit and maybe try having a back and forth about the content of your beliefs for a change, can you do that slugger?

[Oscar_Kipling]

teddyV , Vhayes, Athanasius, firefighter....surely i'm forgetting folks (heck you might be one of them what with all the name changes over the years), but those are people that immediately stick out in my mind as Christians on the old forum who surprised me with their "walk" as it were. I admire(d) them and frequently think about our interactions even after all these years...

Huh, I'm usually worried I come across as a know-it-all with a superiority complex.

I don't know, I haven't left the faith but I know what a fall from grace is like, but even before that I had a sense of "there but for the grace of God". I mean, anxiety before God in the Kierkegaardian sense of the word. I know what it's like to fake relationships with everyone, and what it means to be honest only to then be looked down on with suspicion, to be regarded with a lack of empathy and understanding, or to have Christians wonder if maybe I'm less mental struggle and more open rebellion (all for a choice of new necklines, obviously). I think that at the end of the day Jesus is going to care if I loved him and my neighbours and that's going to matter more than the propositions I assented to or the beliefs I held or the mistakes I made. You know, as long as I'm not currently persisting in an egregious sin in rebellion against God. Is it possible to be in such a state, not intend it, and not know it?

Anyway, writing this made me think of one of my favourite Christian songs that isn't:

When I was younger I used to pray that I would see people as God saw them, and I don't know if that one was answered but, well, here's me.

Haha, A few people have accused me of being a condescending know-it-all once or twice even though clearly my humbleness is only exceeded by my tact & sensitivity to the feelings and beliefs of others. Honestly, you do come off as a know it all sometimes and back when you went by Xel it used to chap me something fierce as a person who used to think of himself as the smartest guy in the room. Ultimately though you actually do know a lot of stuff, and a person can learn a great deal from you if they can get over not being the absolute sharpest knife in the knife holding thing. More importantly you're a genuine and earnest thinker, I don't always agree with where you end up, but the legitimacy of the journey is beyond question. All that to say lots of what you've said has stuck with me.

Yeah, I imagine there are plenty of parallels in our experiences, though I must admit that it has never been clear to me how or why you managed to remain in the faith, I mean we did discuss it once, but it just doesn't make intuitive sense to me I guess. This song sounds like  if Incubus was Christian, not bad but i'm more of a tiny southern baptist church singing old Negro spirituals kind of guy. I grew up with lots of that and if a sweaty 60 year old woman isn't doing some gravelly glossolalia infused ad-libs about how Jesus came late in the midnight hour over a crescendo of organs, rhythmic claps and tambourines it just doesn't feel like church to me lol. 

[Athanasius]

Haha, A few people have accused me of being a condescending know-it-all once or twice even though clearly my humbleness is only exceeded by my tact & sensitivity to the feelings and beliefs of others. Honestly, you do come off as a know it all sometimes and back when you went by Xel it used to chap me something fierce as a person who used to think of himself as the smartest guy in the room. Ultimately though you actually do know a lot of stuff, and a person can learn a great deal from you if they can get over not being the absolute sharpest knife in the knife holding thing. More importantly you're a genuine and earnest thinker, I don't always agree with where you end up, but the legitimacy of the journey is beyond question. All that to say lots of what you've said has stuck with me.

Oh yeah, Xel'Naga was a long time ago now, and that's a little disturbing to think about. But that's exactly why I have the concern. I'm anything but a know-it-all with a superiority complex, but I do know a lot, and I like to learn, and I have an insight a lot of people don't, and I'm usually clever, and I write exceptionally directly and as if I have an idea of what I'm talking about. That's always been a struggle and I know more know than I did back then about why I do those things or come across like that (hello, autism), but here's to hoping becoming a woman solves all that. :cheers:

...it's a joke. Well not really, but I made it a joke because I have to cope with it somehow.

Yeah, I imagine there are plenty of parallels in our experiences, though I must admit that it has never been clear to me how or why you managed to remain in the faith, I mean we did discuss it once, but it just doesn't make intuitive sense to me I guess.


 This song sounds like  if Incubus was Christian, not bad but i'm more of a tiny southern baptist church singing old Negro spirituals kind of guy.

I can't hear "Incubus" without "Talk Shows on Mute" playing in my head.

I guess at its most basic, I haven't left the faith because I see myself as having a task in a Kierkegaardian sense, and I exist in relation to God, and God as the object of my faith is not impacted by the people who surround me and the good or bad examples they set. At the end of the day I see myself before God, and if I'm to give an account of how I lived my life I don't think God is going to accept, "well I didn't do this or that because the people around me were awful and I thought that because they were awful the whole thing was bollocks". To me that is met with something like, "yeah but that was them and we're talking about you and me".

This song sounds like  if Incubus was Christian, not bad but i'm more of a tiny southern baptist church singing old Negro spirituals kind of guy. I grew up with lots of that and if a sweaty 60 year old woman isn't doing some gravelly glossolalia infused ad-libs about how Jesus came late in the midnight hour over a crescendo of organs, rhythmic claps and tambourines it just doesn't feel like church to me lol.

Ha. I was always accused of lacking the indwelling of the Spirit because I didn't speak in tongues. Well, if those people saw me today they would surely feel vindicated! But yeah, there's a certain draw to that kind of church and having hung around Presbyterians the last little while, it's almost as if the Sunday mornings are dead in comparison.

Actually, I haven't attended a church in person since 2020. I'll have to try again at some point, but the anxiety...

[RabbiKnife]

Well, for certain, you'll be the best dressed man there, even if the congregation doesn't know it.

 

[Athanasius]

Well, for certain, you'll be the best dressed man there, even if the congregation doesn't know it.

 

What's this, I have clothes in a colour other than black?!

[RabbiKnife]

Ha! 

I look like an Anglican priest today

Black shoes
Houndstooth pants

Black long  sleeve button up button collar shirt!

Very stylish…