What would that look like?

[Oscar_Kipling]

So,  I'm under no illusions that my personality isn't very off-putting, It is something I've struggled with my entire life. I'm also aware that the part of the human brain that causes people to limit sentence length or edit for succinctness or stop writing before they begin repeating themselves is severely damaged in me. These things I know about and when I fail to account for them that is on me, my fault. However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.


So the question is simple, under what conditions is it useful, purposeful, interesting and or maybe even enjoyable to discuss, argue, debate , agree and or disagree about Christianity with a non-christian? Do these conditions change with different types of Non-believers ie atheist's  vs former christians vs persons of other faiths? Is there an ideal or acceptable way for a non-believer to express criticisms of Christianity and or Christians? Can you name a Non-believer that you think generally gets it right, and why?
Do you believe that Non-Believers should respect the Christian faith and beliefs  and in this context what does respect mean? Do you believe that Christians should respect the the non-belief of non-believers, and in this context what does respect mean?
Do you believe that your approach to potentially controversial discussions with non-believers could be improved and if so how so?

[Athanasius]

So the question is simple, under what conditions is it useful, purposeful, interesting and or maybe even enjoyable to discuss, argue, debate , agree and or disagree about Christianity with a non-christian?

When the exchange is a genuine discussion/argument/debate of views and understandings of the world, and neither side is trying to win, put down the other, etc.

Do these conditions change with different types of Non-believers ie atheist's  vs former christians vs persons of other faiths?

I don't see why they would.

Is there an ideal or acceptable way for a non-believer to express criticisms of Christianity and or Christians? Can you name a Non-believer that you think generally gets it right, and why?

See above. I think it's easier to name people who get it wrong, but I think J.L Mackie is an example of someone who got it right.

Do you believe that Non-Believers should respect the Christian faith and beliefs and in this context what does respect mean? Do you believe that Christians should respect the the non-belief of non-believers, and in this context what does respect mean?

Not necessarily, no. It depends on the belief, and toleration is probably the starting point, and not all beliefs are tolerable and certainly, not all beliefs are respectable. Respect would mean something like, the belief was admirable.

Do you believe that your approach to potentially controversial discussions with non-believers could be improved and if so how so?

Yes, I weaponise my intellect. I'm growing some emotions to work on that.

[RabbiKnife]

As opposed to most Christians and non-Christians who weaponize their emotions and should try to grow some intellect to go with them!!!

😂😂😂

[IMINXTC]

I represent that!😒

[Athanasius]

As opposed to most Christians and non-Christians who weaponize their emotions and should try to grow some intellect to go with them!!!

😂😂😂

I had a writing coach suggest to me that since I'm able to see problems in systems, am intuitively analytic, and can think through complex things at a high level, etc., I should try to be less direct with the things I say (at work) and try to frame what I want to say in the form of questions so as to allow those around me to come to the conclusions I want them to come to. This was because I was coming off too directly, and it could be offputting to others who might come away thinking I had a sense of superiority about myself.

After a month we met again and I showed her examples of the questions I had come up with, and then she suggested we try a different, different direction. It turns out that my questions were very good questions that spoke to the heart of the issue or thing I was commenting on but did so in such a way that the respondent would have to admit some failing on their part, or write as if they were conceding something.

[ProDeo]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

Already found an answer on the why?

[Oscar_Kipling]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

Already found an answer on the why?

I've always had my thoughts on it, but i'm interested in what you think

[Sojourner]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

A big part of the problem is the antipathy toward Christianity frequently manifested in your verbiage. The problem is compounded because the animus is coming from a former believer. I'm not sure if is due to a bitterness from your disillusionment with the faith, an innate resentment of believers for enjoying what you feel deprived of, or something else. But the contempt underlying the content of your posts alienates people. A humble believer who walks away from his relationship with God due to doubts or sincere nagging questions about things, yet has an inner desire to be restored, will find empathy and compassion. But a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God, Christ, and the faith cannot realistically expect Christians to respond in a positive way. Do you have an eye toward reconciliation and restoration as you work things through? 

[Oscar_Kipling]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

A big part of the problem is the antipathy toward Christianity frequently manifested in your verbiage. The problem is compounded because the animus is coming from a former believer. I'm not sure if is due to a bitterness from your disillusionment with the faith, an innate resentment of believers for enjoying what you feel deprived of, or something else. But the contempt underlying the content of your posts alienates people. A humble believer who walks away from his relationship with God due to doubts or sincere nagging questions about things, yet has an inner desire to be restored, will find empathy and compassion. But a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God, Christ, and the faith cannot realistically expect Christians to respond in a positive way. Do you have an eye toward reconciliation and restoration as you work things through?

I'm not certain that you realize that the semantic content of an "inner desire to be restored" when juxtaposed against "a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God" is identical to "a person that believes in the Christian God that I believe in". If your compassion and empathy is predicated on whether or not I'm going to claim to want to be restored into a kingdom of heaven that I do not believe in then I must say that I am not impressed with what it means to be a new creature in Christ, because I can throw a rock and hit 100 people that predicate their compassion and empathy on arbitrary conditions before it hits the ground. I don't have any interest in being held hostage to your conditional empathy and compassion, you can either have empathy & compassion for me or not, but I can tell you flat out that I am an atheist and I do not believe that there is anything for me to be restored to. it's mind boggling that you even think that it's possible that you are displaying the enjoyment of something that I long for because all I see is a person with some glaring flaws, and I have plenty of glaring flaws all by myself...You look at me and see antipathy, bitterness and venom directed at you who is on the side of love,truth and Christ, and because all you see when you look at yourself is this, I doubt you can even begin to conceive of the idea that you might be dishing it out much better than you can take it.

[Athanasius]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

A big part of the problem is the antipathy toward Christianity frequently manifested in your verbiage. The problem is compounded because the animus is coming from a former believer. I'm not sure if is due to a bitterness from your disillusionment with the faith, an innate resentment of believers for enjoying what you feel deprived of, or something else. But the contempt underlying the content of your posts alienates people. A humble believer who walks away from his relationship with God due to doubts or sincere nagging questions about things, yet has an inner desire to be restored, will find empathy and compassion. But a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God, Christ, and the faith cannot realistically expect Christians to respond in a positive way. Do you have an eye toward reconciliation and restoration as you work things through?

I'm not certain that you realize that the semantic content of an "inner desire to be restored" when juxtaposed against "a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God" is identical to "a person that believes in the Christian God that I believe in". If your compassion and empathy is predicated on whether or not I'm going to claim to want to be restored into a kingdom of heaven that I do not believe in then I must say that I am not impressed with what it means to be a new creature in Christ, because I can throw a rock and hit 100 people that predicate their compassion and empathy on arbitrary conditions before it hits the ground. I don't have any interest in being held hostage to your conditional empathy and compassion, you can either have empathy & compassion for me or not, but I can tell you flat out that I am an atheist and I do not believe that there is anything for me to be restored to. it's mind boggling that you even think that it's possible that you are displaying the enjoyment of something that I long for because all I see is a person with some glaring flaws, and I have plenty of glaring flaws all by myself...You look at me and see antipathy, bitterness and venom directed at you who is on the side of love,truth and Christ, and because all you see when you look at yourself is this, I doubt you can even begin to conceive of the idea that you might be dishing it out much better than you can take it.

I'm not sure that Sojourner is limiting his empathy and compassion to only those who have an "inner desire to be restored", only that the one who "diminishes the validity of God, Christ and the faith" shouldn't expect a positive response. Sojourner will have to clarify what he means by that, but by "positive response I understand you won't be met with rounds of applause for the things that you write -- not that I'm seeing how this relates to what you've said here or elsewhere.

Or, you could have hit the nail on the head. But, it would seem strange to lack compassion for a prodigal son given the parable. Maybe Sojourner sees the situation at hand as less 'prodigal son' and more, the son who rebels, is obstinant, etc.

[RabbiKnife]

I've never understood animus toward people of Christian faith.

Christians believe that they have found truth in the person of Jesus Christ, and wish to share what they have found with joy to those that haven't had a similar determination.  How could anyone think evil of a person that is wishing them only what subjectively is understood as good.  Granted, a lot of Christians are absolute asses in the way in which they express their faith, but that is not to denigrate true faith.

I cannot, philosophically, find any reason why a non-believer or atheist would have any objection to someone else's faith.

If you don't share my faith, then why attempt to denigrate and degrade and oppose it? 

That's the part I don't understand.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I cannot, philosophically, find any reason why a non-believer or atheist would have any objection to someone else's faith.

If you don't share my faith, then why attempt to denigrate and degrade and oppose it? 

That's the part I don't understand.

This might depend somewhat on what you consider to be denigration, could you be more specific about some of the things you consider to be denigrating, if it is something i said that would be great because i'd love to talk about it.

[Oscar_Kipling]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

A big part of the problem is the antipathy toward Christianity frequently manifested in your verbiage. The problem is compounded because the animus is coming from a former believer. I'm not sure if is due to a bitterness from your disillusionment with the faith, an innate resentment of believers for enjoying what you feel deprived of, or something else. But the contempt underlying the content of your posts alienates people. A humble believer who walks away from his relationship with God due to doubts or sincere nagging questions about things, yet has an inner desire to be restored, will find empathy and compassion. But a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God, Christ, and the faith cannot realistically expect Christians to respond in a positive way. Do you have an eye toward reconciliation and restoration as you work things through?

I'm not certain that you realize that the semantic content of an "inner desire to be restored" when juxtaposed against "a prodigal son who diminishes the validity of God" is identical to "a person that believes in the Christian God that I believe in". If your compassion and empathy is predicated on whether or not I'm going to claim to want to be restored into a kingdom of heaven that I do not believe in then I must say that I am not impressed with what it means to be a new creature in Christ, because I can throw a rock and hit 100 people that predicate their compassion and empathy on arbitrary conditions before it hits the ground. I don't have any interest in being held hostage to your conditional empathy and compassion, you can either have empathy & compassion for me or not, but I can tell you flat out that I am an atheist and I do not believe that there is anything for me to be restored to. it's mind boggling that you even think that it's possible that you are displaying the enjoyment of something that I long for because all I see is a person with some glaring flaws, and I have plenty of glaring flaws all by myself...You look at me and see antipathy, bitterness and venom directed at you who is on the side of love,truth and Christ, and because all you see when you look at yourself is this, I doubt you can even begin to conceive of the idea that you might be dishing it out much better than you can take it.

I'm not sure that Sojourner is limiting his empathy and compassion to only those who have an "inner desire to be restored", only that the one who "diminishes the validity of God, Christ and the faith" shouldn't expect a positive response. Sojourner will have to clarify what he means by that, but by "positive response I understand you won't be met with rounds of applause for the things that you write -- not that I'm seeing how this relates to what you've said here or elsewhere.

Or, you could have hit the nail on the head. But, it would seem strange to lack compassion for a prodigal son given the parable. Maybe Sojourner sees the situation at hand as less 'prodigal son' and more, the son who rebels, is obstinant, etc.

yeah I guess it could be, I hope Sojourner will clarify either way. thanks for your post btw I wanted to read up on J.L. mackie before I respond, not that I really have much to add to what you said.

[Sojourner]

Oscar, at the beginning of this thread, you suggested that your being an irritating person was not at the heart of why you get the hackles of Christians up. I was simply giving you my assessment of the main problem as I see it: you consistently denounce what we hold as sacred. You claim to be a former Christian, yet are now an atheist who renounces God, Christ, and the Christian faith. I made the mistake of thinking you were frequenting a Christian board because we have something you either miss or desire. But I suppose the storehouse of contempt you harbor leaves little room for such trite sentiment.

It was not my intent to hold out empathy, compassion and fellowship like a carrot on a stick. I was simply asking what your long term goal was, hoping it was restoration. Well, you put me in my place, and set me straight. You've made it clear you're only here to find fault, poke, prod, and otherwise amuse yourself. If you choose to be an enemy of the cross instead of being saved by it, that's your decision to make. But not believing in God won't not change the reality of the day of Judgment that awaits us all.

[ProDeo]

However I do sometimes feel that being an irritating person isn't at the heart of why I seem to get the hackles of Christians up.

Already found an answer on the why?

I've always had my thoughts on it, but i'm interested in what you think

I reversed the question and asked myself why I (as a Christian) would visit an ex-Christian or atheist forum, I can think of 4 reasons -

1. As Jesus said preach the Gospel, but He also said don't cast your pearls before the swines, experience learned me to follow His advice, meaning it's pointless, exceptions excluded.

2. To test my faith, is my faith (still) strong enough to survive? Opposition is strong over there.

3. In the hypothetical case my faith would be on the slippery slope (it isn't) I can imagine people would go there in search for a final answer.

4. To meet old friends.

And so I was wondering why you are here and perhaps option [2] and [4] are matches?

IOW, as an ex-Christian I am sure you have done your research thoroughly, like I did with my faith. And in the Christian life there are sometimes moments of doubt and I assume this is not different with agnostics, ex-Christians and even the most staunch atheists. With option [2] you can test if your beliefs are (still) strong enough to take away doubts you might have.