Supreme Court leaked draft opinion

[Oscar_Kipling]

i've often fantasized about Roe v Wade being overturned or the  criminalization of abortion, mostly because I am extremely curious about what Pro life Christians will do with all of the energy, intellect and creativity they have been putting into this fight. I wonder will all that love and compassion and deep respect for the lives of the unborn be transposed into becoming equally vocal, focused, determined and financially supportive in helping mothers/parents and children who are in situations where they are ill suited, woefully unprepared and/or frighteningly lacking resources needed to shepard that newborn into healthy adulthood. I wonder will they take to the streets with equal fervor to then address food insecurity, healthcare access, housing, living wages, education equality, disproportionate pollution in economically depressed communities and so on? With the dense dark fog of abortion finally cleared from their eyes will Christians in America be able to clearly see the other areas where they can serve underserved families and communities and help to nourish those babies into childhood and those children into adulthood? With the great torturous weight of abortion lifted from their shoulders, will they feel strong and nimble enough to pour untold energy into the lives of the very people who would have previously utilized abortion, to guide, and sometimes even carry them over and through the challenging terrain of child rearing? Will they now focus all of that legislative cunning and dexterity to come up with wildly imaginative legal solutions to some of the problems that many of those would-have-been abortion recipients have toiled under for generations? Will they all unify beneath the banner of pro-life and expand its meaning to encompass the rest of that child's life, and the parent's lives and the community's lives so that they can lessen burdens, impart wisdom and supply resources to address the struggles that come after birth? 

I mean, If something like that were to happen, if Christians approached the lives of the post-born with the same zeal, fervor, long term persistence and utter disregard for individual autonomy,  then who among us could deny that it actually was all about love all along, that this fight was in service of lifting us up and providing benevolent guidance and not about forcing free individuals with different beliefs and mindsets into behaving as you dictate they should...Of course that's just what I fantasize happening, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all that excess energy is reinvested into another long and intense fight to force free individuals with different beliefs and mindsets into behaving as you dictate they should instead of merely ensuring that your own behaviors are aligned with your own beliefs as a free individual.   

I once saw a video of an abortion, a camera went in also. What was seen is a fetus fighting for his/her life trying to escape from the scissors, eventually to no avail. That little human did not want to die, he/she wanted to live.

Then when the scissors got him/her the head of the boy/girl was cracked else the fetus could not get out because women don't have dilation. Then the fetus was dumped in a pedal bin. Human scrap. You must have a good stomach to watch.

do you have a link you can pm me?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Yes, of course I do what I can because its actually important to me.

Does doing what you can overlap with what you described earlier?

So is there a way to criticize behaviors I've seen in christian communities even though they do not represent every Christian down to a man? Like what if when you were criticizing the "west"  and its obsession with cheap chocolate I brought up my vegan friend who stopped eating chocolate?

You're free to call me on such broad generalisations, and then we can discuss how appropriate those generalisations are when they concern a ~10 billion dollar market (for example). Of course, I'm talking about an entire social structure, not nebulous Christians, nebulous Muslims, or nebulous atheists.

I know you all understand the concept of speaking generally about pervasive problems so I dont get why I keep getting singled out  and i'm constantly forced into explaining that I don't mean every single christian, but this is something i've seen and experienced and I wanted to bring it up. like just read what I write and take the same things you would take for granted with any other normal not insane person.

Because in part you're preaching to the choir and it's repetitive to hear about "what if Christians..." when Christians are already doing those things. Christians who picket abortion clinics then do nothing to help young mothers are celebrated only in their own minds.

well yes, I couldn't rightly i'm doing what I can for these people in my community if i'm only doing things that are completely irrelevant to their situations.

Its not so much that I'm seeking permission to criticise you for overgeneralization, it should be clear that I have no compunction about criticizing you or anyone. I use my discretion to determine if what i'm seeing is a detrimental overgeneralization or if someone is just speaking generally with the understanding that its a convenience to avoid filling a post with caveats, hedges, digressions and over-explanations in an attempt to capture nuance that could be taken for granted with a generous reading of the statement.... this is where I feel i'm rarely given the benefit of the doubt.  Or maybe i'm facing a combo of my own oversensitivity, poor writing, bad ideas and outdated takes. 


I guess its difficult to know who's in the choir and who isn't until we begin to discuss topics...I do understand the frustration with being lumped in with poor representatives or with having well trodden topics flung to the forefront by an outsider, I imagine there are some steps i could take to try to mitigate that, like asking questions about people's beliefs first. That being said I believe that the issues I've described are pervasive enough in the Christian pro life community that it is not safe to assume that anyone that I run across is likely to be in the choir.

Anyway I'll drop the topic entirely as the consensus here seems to be that its not a consequential issue or at the very least not one worth discussing.

[Athanasius]

Yes, of course I do what I can because its actually important to me.

Does doing what you can overlap with what you described earlier?

So is there a way to criticize behaviors I've seen in christian communities even though they do not represent every Christian down to a man? Like what if when you were criticizing the "west"  and its obsession with cheap chocolate I brought up my vegan friend who stopped eating chocolate?

You're free to call me on such broad generalisations, and then we can discuss how appropriate those generalisations are when they concern a ~10 billion dollar market (for example). Of course, I'm talking about an entire social structure, not nebulous Christians, nebulous Muslims, or nebulous atheists.

I know you all understand the concept of speaking generally about pervasive problems so I dont get why I keep getting singled out  and i'm constantly forced into explaining that I don't mean every single christian, but this is something i've seen and experienced and I wanted to bring it up. like just read what I write and take the same things you would take for granted with any other normal not insane person.

Because in part you're preaching to the choir and it's repetitive to hear about "what if Christians..." when Christians are already doing those things. Christians who picket abortion clinics then do nothing to help young mothers are celebrated only in their own minds.

well yes, I couldn't rightly i'm doing what I can for these people in my community if i'm only doing things that are completely irrelevant to their situations.

Its not so much that I'm seeking permission to criticise you for overgeneralization, it should be clear that I have no compunction about criticizing you or anyone. I use my discretion to determine if what i'm seeing is a detrimental overgeneralization or if someone is just speaking generally with the understanding that its a convenience to avoid filling a post with caveats, hedges, digressions and over-explanations in an attempt to capture nuance that could be taken for granted with a generous reading of the statement.... this is where I feel i'm rarely given the benefit of the doubt.  Or maybe i'm facing a combo of my own oversensitivity, poor writing, bad ideas and outdated takes. 


I guess its difficult to know who's in the choir and who isn't until we begin to discuss topics...I do understand the frustration with being lumped in with poor representatives or with having well trodden topics flung to the forefront by an outsider, I imagine there are some steps i could take to try to mitigate that, like asking questions about people's beliefs first. That being said I believe that the issues I've described are pervasive enough in the Christian pro life community that it is not safe to assume that anyone that I run across is likely to be in the choir.

Anyway I'll drop the topic entirely as the consensus here seems to be that its not a consequential issue or at the very least not one worth discussing.

What I was also asking is why those Christians' good enough (I imagine they think they're doing the best that they can) is worth criticising, or worth pointing out the hypocrisy, but other peoples' good enough is... good enough. In other words, are we really talking about hypogrisy or are we looking for ways to denigrate groups with disagreeable views? And to be clear, I disagree with Christians who picket abortion clinics, and do not help the poor, single mothers, or children. In fact, I think that's very un-Christian.

[IMINXTC]

I have personally never known of a believer or group of believers who had picketed an abortion clinic. Believers sponsoring and running orphanages (my closest friends) and various outreaches to families, women and girls, on the other hand...many.
Just saying.

My sister and her husband also ran an outreach and foster home at their house, affecting many.

[Athanasius]

I have personally never known of a believer or group of believers who had picketed an abortion clinic.

I know quite a few (or how about posters of aborted babies outside of hospitals?), but they would also tell me I'm mentally ill so I don't hold them in any regard. They think they're doing a supremely moral, Godly thing.

[IMINXTC]

I have personally never known of a believer or group of believers who had picketed an abortion clinic.

I know quite a few (or how about posters of aborted babies outside of hospitals?)

I've never seen that. Not once.
But I get it.

[RabbiKnife]

I know a guy who literally put his money where his mouth was.

He bought the building that the only abortion clinic in town was, then refused to renew the lease.

he turned the building into a crisis pregnancy center.

And bought an 8 unit apartment building next door for single expectant moms that had no place to live.

[ProDeo]

I once saw a video of an abortion, a camera went in also. What was seen is a fetus fighting for his/her life trying to escape from the scissors, eventually to no avail. That little human did not want to die, he/she wanted to live.

Then when the scissors got him/her the head of the boy/girl was cracked else the fetus could not get out because women don't have dilation. Then the fetus was dumped in a pedal bin. Human scrap. You must have a good stomach to watch.

do you have a link you can pm me?

Link does not exist any longer, but I remember I have downloaded the video, will search my (30 TB) hard-disks.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Yes, of course I do what I can because its actually important to me.

Does doing what you can overlap with what you described earlier?

So is there a way to criticize behaviors I've seen in christian communities even though they do not represent every Christian down to a man? Like what if when you were criticizing the "west"  and its obsession with cheap chocolate I brought up my vegan friend who stopped eating chocolate?

You're free to call me on such broad generalisations, and then we can discuss how appropriate those generalisations are when they concern a ~10 billion dollar market (for example). Of course, I'm talking about an entire social structure, not nebulous Christians, nebulous Muslims, or nebulous atheists.

I know you all understand the concept of speaking generally about pervasive problems so I dont get why I keep getting singled out  and i'm constantly forced into explaining that I don't mean every single christian, but this is something i've seen and experienced and I wanted to bring it up. like just read what I write and take the same things you would take for granted with any other normal not insane person.

Because in part you're preaching to the choir and it's repetitive to hear about "what if Christians..." when Christians are already doing those things. Christians who picket abortion clinics then do nothing to help young mothers are celebrated only in their own minds.

well yes, I couldn't rightly i'm doing what I can for these people in my community if i'm only doing things that are completely irrelevant to their situations.

Its not so much that I'm seeking permission to criticise you for overgeneralization, it should be clear that I have no compunction about criticizing you or anyone. I use my discretion to determine if what i'm seeing is a detrimental overgeneralization or if someone is just speaking generally with the understanding that its a convenience to avoid filling a post with caveats, hedges, digressions and over-explanations in an attempt to capture nuance that could be taken for granted with a generous reading of the statement.... this is where I feel i'm rarely given the benefit of the doubt.  Or maybe i'm facing a combo of my own oversensitivity, poor writing, bad ideas and outdated takes. 


I guess its difficult to know who's in the choir and who isn't until we begin to discuss topics...I do understand the frustration with being lumped in with poor representatives or with having well trodden topics flung to the forefront by an outsider, I imagine there are some steps i could take to try to mitigate that, like asking questions about people's beliefs first. That being said I believe that the issues I've described are pervasive enough in the Christian pro life community that it is not safe to assume that anyone that I run across is likely to be in the choir.

Anyway I'll drop the topic entirely as the consensus here seems to be that its not a consequential issue or at the very least not one worth discussing.

What I was also asking is why those Christians' good enough (I imagine they think they're doing the best that they can) is worth criticising, or worth pointing out the hypocrisy, but other peoples' good enough is... good enough. In other words, are we really talking about hypogrisy or are we looking for ways to denigrate groups with disagreeable views? And to be clear, I disagree with Christians who picket abortion clinics, and do not help the poor, single mothers, or children. In fact, I think that's very un-Christian.

I don't think that America's attitudes and efforts in these areas in general are "good enough", I believe that many of the circumstances that perpetuate our high abortion rate are systemic and stem from America's apathetic disregard and hypocrisy toward impoverished and under-educated communities IOW the same callousness and out of sight out of mind behaviors that lead to children being abused, tortured and killed for the sake of cheap chocolate is the same behavior that promulgates a cultural cycle of circumstances that lead to abortion and a slew of other dire situations that surround it. I'm on a Christian board criticising behaviors that some Pro life Christians engage in, but that doesn't mean that I believe that is the beginning and end of the topic.


You are of course free to agree with the criticism or not, but I think its pretty unrealistic to expect that if i'm going to criticise Christians then I had better also criticise any and all groups or instances of other's engaging in similar behaviors or else i'm just digging up dirt to fling at Christians because I disagree with their beliefs. Not only do I believe there is plenty of dirt and responsibility to go around for me to criticize any group or individual including myself, I also have no trouble at all finding room and reason to criticise the validity, veracity and/or value of many Christian beliefs themselves so I am in no need of any crutch to support my disagreement ....


This is what I mean about the lack of generosity here, I feel that if I was talking about anything else it would be taken for granted that my ideas about the world extend beyond what I could fit in the few paragraphs of a particular post. But hey, you aren't the only one so I must be doing something that causes me to come off as a person that sees Christian beliefs as so beyond reproach, so immune to logical, rational opposition that I must try to find the exceedingly rare instances where a few Christians behave in a manner that I can twist and fabricate into a baseless and toothless criticism of what is actually consistently exceptional behavior of the highest moral character. Almost without fail many of you folks fall back on the tried and true rationale that I couldn't possibly actually think what I think, have experienced what I have experienced, and reject what I reject because it is my honest assessment of the world as I see it...It almost invariably boils down to me saying I believe stuff just to mess with you or make you look bad to whatever audience you imagine I have that is reading all of my overly long rambling posts...it's like many of you imagine yourselves as the stars of my tv show where all of my beliefs and actions are created in service of creating easily defeated sitcom style obstacles for you to triumph over by merely pointing out that im only doing this because i'm jealous or whatever.   

[Oscar_Kipling]

I once saw a video of an abortion, a camera went in also. What was seen is a fetus fighting for his/her life trying to escape from the scissors, eventually to no avail. That little human did not want to die, he/she wanted to live.

Then when the scissors got him/her the head of the boy/girl was cracked else the fetus could not get out because women don't have dilation. Then the fetus was dumped in a pedal bin. Human scrap. You must have a good stomach to watch.

do you have a link you can pm me?

Link does not exist any longer, but I remember I have downloaded the video, will search my (30 TB) hard-disks.

ha wow, and I thought that I was obsessive about saving everything with my 24TB array, that's pretty cool what is your setup like if you don't mind me asking? I'm running a tiered DAS with raid 5+1, 8x8tb mechanical drives with 2 spares and 2x1tb (raid 1) nvme drives in front and 5tb of cloud storage backing up "critical" stuff. I used to have a tier of ssd's but the price performance wasn't ever there so when I upgraded I just left them out. Anyway thanks for checking.

[ProDeo]

I once saw a video of an abortion, a camera went in also. What was seen is a fetus fighting for his/her life trying to escape from the scissors, eventually to no avail. That little human did not want to die, he/she wanted to live.

Then when the scissors got him/her the head of the boy/girl was cracked else the fetus could not get out because women don't have dilation. Then the fetus was dumped in a pedal bin. Human scrap. You must have a good stomach to watch.

do you have a link you can pm me?

Link does not exist any longer, but I remember I have downloaded the video, will search my (30 TB) hard-disks.

ha wow, and I thought that I was obsessive about saving everything with my 24TB array, that's pretty cool what is your setup like if you don't mind me asking? I'm running a tiered DAS with raid 5+1, 8x8tb mechanical drives with 2 spares and 2x1tb (raid 1) nvme drives in front and 5tb of cloud storage backing up "critical" stuff. I used to have a tier of ssd's but the price performance wasn't ever there so when I upgraded I just left them out. Anyway thanks for checking.

For years I have collected movies, series, all sorts of documentaries in total 10,000+ video files. They are stored on 2 x 10Tb hard disks and a few 4TB ones. I stopped doing it since the wave of streaming services starting with Netflix.

For my hobby (chess programming) I am using about 10Tb because the enormous file sizes (100Gb+) that come with the development. Next month it will be Father's day plus my birthday and I always get vouchers so I can buy new space, a 2TB SSD is on my wishing list   

[Athanasius]

I don't think that America's attitudes and efforts in these areas in general are "good enough", I believe that many of the circumstances that perpetuate our high abortion rate are systemic and stem from America's apathetic disregard and hypocrisy toward impoverished and under-educated communities IOW the same callousness and out of sight out of mind behaviors that lead to children being abused, tortured and killed for the sake of cheap chocolate is the same behavior that promulgates a cultural cycle of circumstances that lead to abortion and a slew of other dire situations that surround it. I'm on a Christian board criticising behaviors that some Pro life Christians engage in, but that doesn't mean that I believe that is the beginning and end of the topic.


You are of course free to agree with the criticism or not, but I think its pretty unrealistic to expect that if i'm going to criticise Christians then I had better also criticise any and all groups or instances of other's engaging in similar behaviors or else i'm just digging up dirt to fling at Christians because I disagree with their beliefs. Not only do I believe there is plenty of dirt and responsibility to go around for me to criticize any group or individual including myself, I also have no trouble at all finding room and reason to criticise the validity, veracity and/or value of many Christian beliefs themselves so I am in no need of any crutch to support my disagreement ....


This is what I mean about the lack of generosity here, I feel that if I was talking about anything else it would be taken for granted that my ideas about the world extend beyond what I could fit in the few paragraphs of a particular post. But hey, you aren't the only one so I must be doing something that causes me to come off as a person that sees Christian beliefs as so beyond reproach, so immune to logical, rational opposition that I must try to find the exceedingly rare instances where a few Christians behave in a manner that I can twist and fabricate into a baseless and toothless criticism of what is actually consistently exceptional behavior of the highest moral character. Almost without fail many of you folks fall back on the tried and true rationale that I couldn't possibly actually think what I think, have experienced what I have experienced, and reject what I reject because it is my honest assessment of the world as I see it...It almost invariably boils down to me saying I believe stuff just to mess with you or make you look bad to whatever audience you imagine I have that is reading all of my overly long rambling posts...it's like many of you imagine yourselves as the stars of my tv show where all of my beliefs and actions are created in service of creating easily defeated sitcom style obstacles for you to triumph over by merely pointing out that im only doing this because i'm jealous or whatever.

"well yes, I couldn't rightly i'm doing what I can for these people in my community if i'm only doing things that are completely irrelevant to their situations."

Good enough? What's to stop anyone from saying they're doing what they can and what they think is in the best interest, etc.? Had you made the point about Jews, Muslims, or atheists, I'd be saying the same. You were sloppy in grouping together all "Pro life Christians" <sic>, suggesting they were all disingenuous in their aims and if once the abortion 'battle' was won would continue not out of love but a desire for power through legal imposition. This follows from your other thread on Christian overconfidence. Do you think that if everyone is reading you a particular way, that maybe that's how you're coming across?

I don't know where you're going with your second paragraph as what I'm doing is calling you out on the mention of supposed Christians specifically, not the societal failings which I earlier commented on myself. I don't see where anyone has suggested you're jealous or being ridiculous or that we're the stars of our own show. That's an interesting take when push comes to shove with respect to your earlier statements re: so-called Christian behaviour and resulting fantasizing.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I don't think that America's attitudes and efforts in these areas in general are "good enough", I believe that many of the circumstances that perpetuate our high abortion rate are systemic and stem from America's apathetic disregard and hypocrisy toward impoverished and under-educated communities IOW the same callousness and out of sight out of mind behaviors that lead to children being abused, tortured and killed for the sake of cheap chocolate is the same behavior that promulgates a cultural cycle of circumstances that lead to abortion and a slew of other dire situations that surround it. I'm on a Christian board criticising behaviors that some Pro life Christians engage in, but that doesn't mean that I believe that is the beginning and end of the topic.


You are of course free to agree with the criticism or not, but I think its pretty unrealistic to expect that if i'm going to criticise Christians then I had better also criticise any and all groups or instances of other's engaging in similar behaviors or else i'm just digging up dirt to fling at Christians because I disagree with their beliefs. Not only do I believe there is plenty of dirt and responsibility to go around for me to criticize any group or individual including myself, I also have no trouble at all finding room and reason to criticise the validity, veracity and/or value of many Christian beliefs themselves so I am in no need of any crutch to support my disagreement ....


This is what I mean about the lack of generosity here, I feel that if I was talking about anything else it would be taken for granted that my ideas about the world extend beyond what I could fit in the few paragraphs of a particular post. But hey, you aren't the only one so I must be doing something that causes me to come off as a person that sees Christian beliefs as so beyond reproach, so immune to logical, rational opposition that I must try to find the exceedingly rare instances where a few Christians behave in a manner that I can twist and fabricate into a baseless and toothless criticism of what is actually consistently exceptional behavior of the highest moral character. Almost without fail many of you folks fall back on the tried and true rationale that I couldn't possibly actually think what I think, have experienced what I have experienced, and reject what I reject because it is my honest assessment of the world as I see it...It almost invariably boils down to me saying I believe stuff just to mess with you or make you look bad to whatever audience you imagine I have that is reading all of my overly long rambling posts...it's like many of you imagine yourselves as the stars of my tv show where all of my beliefs and actions are created in service of creating easily defeated sitcom style obstacles for you to triumph over by merely pointing out that im only doing this because i'm jealous or whatever.

"well yes, I couldn't rightly i'm doing what I can for these people in my community if i'm only doing things that are completely irrelevant to their situations."

Good enough? What's to stop anyone from saying they're doing what they can and what they think is in the best interest, etc.? Had you made the point about Jews, Muslims, or atheists, I'd be saying the same. You were sloppy in grouping together all "Pro life Christians" <sic>, suggesting they were all disingenuous in their aims and if once the abortion 'battle' was won would continue not out of love but a desire for power through legal imposition. This follows from your other thread on Christian overconfidence. Do you think that if everyone is reading you a particular way, that maybe that's how you're coming across?

I don't know where you're going with your second paragraph as what I'm doing is calling you out on the mention of supposed Christians specifically, not the societal failings which I earlier commented on myself. I don't see where anyone has suggested you're jealous or being ridiculous or that we're the stars of our own show. That's an interesting take when push comes to shove with respect to your earlier statements re: so-called Christian behaviour and resulting fantasizing.

Nothing is stopping anyone from saying they're doing what they can and what they think is in the best interest, etc, In fact i'd say that people are doing that all of the time. I agree with some folks that are saying that, and I disagree with and criticize others. Likewise while I may feel that donating Uber rides to planned parenthood or lobbying for better sex education and availability of prophylactics in schools are things that I do to help address the issues at hand others may disagree and criticize me for it. it is what it is.

Yes, I do think that maybe that's how I've come across, however over the course of these two threads i've said many times and in many ways that you can take it for granted that if I say "Christians" I probably don't mean every single Christian down to a man. You're right though In my first post I did forget to preface pro life Christians with "some" or "many" and that was ill considered or "sloppy" given my audience. Clearly I cannot persuade some of the folks here to default to a more generous reading of my posts, but I can be more conscientious and deliberate about how I word my posts. Even still I have my doubt's that even if I am careful to narrow the targets of my critiques through more precise language that some folks here won't still insist that i'm trolling or simply seeking ways to say something mean about Christians, but we'll see I suppose.

Well, if you don't see it you don't see it, in your specific case I feel like you had a valid criticism that I was sloppy in failing to put margins around pro life Christians, but I interpreted another of your critiques to be that i'm simply grasping at straws in order to disparage believers. Maybe not out of jealousy but perhaps for sport or some other reason, either way to me that implies that my criticisms are without basis and not intended to discuss an existing issue but merely to sling mud for show. Admittedly my reading of this was almost certainly influenced by others in this thread that were less circumspect in accusing me of  engaging in vacuous trolling or of touting my intelligence in order to label you all as stupid and inferior to me. To me Underlying all of this is the suggestion that I am here to do something to the individuals here, as if my purpose isn't about me and what I hope to learn or discuss at all, but about what effect I can have on others here, as if i'm a 2D mustache twirling bad guy here just to serve as something to be opposed. Obviously if this doesn't apply or means nothing to you then feel free to ignore this without so much as a comment.