Supreme Court leaked draft opinion

[Sojourner]

According to the Constitution, “the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Social issues exist in society today that the founders did not foresee, so the Constitution does not delegate powers regarding them. So, where do we draw the line between a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy and an unborn baby's right to live? Roe v Wade, struck down a Texas law banning abortion and legalized the procedure nationally. However, now that the landmark decision is in danger of being overturned, many people are outraged. Why? If we are willing to entrust such matters to the opinion of a panel of judges, don't be surprised if a majority of the justices later decides to reevaluate the merits of the ruling.

We live in a republic under the rule of law, rather than a theocracy. Yet, regarding issues touching morality, should we as Christians not defer to the perspective of the God of heaven? God clearly declares homosexuality to be an abomination before Him, condemning it with bestiality in the same passage. And yet, we as a nation embrace and defend homosexuality, sanctioning same sex marriage and simply dismissing what God says.

God made mankind expressly male and female, and later forbade blurring that line with such practices as cross-dressing (Deut 22:5). Yet we as a nation are increasingly adopting a non-binary mindset. We revise gender options on forms and documents, avoid saying "ladies and gentlemen" to airline passengers, and even use "they" and "them" instead of "him" and "her." All to avoid the possibility of offending someone who "might" be identifying differently from their biology.

We promote the LGBTQ agenda among children through public school curriculum, Disney animated characters and comic book superheroes represented as gay, and arranging "drag queen story time" in public libraries. Because it's not enough to let people be who they feel they are, we have to be advocates of homosexuality and non-binary gender identity, and attempt to normalize it through indoctrination of the next generation of Americans. We have to encourage children to explore their sexuality and "celebrate" diversity. Shouldn't we at least wait until kids are old enough to even have a firm grasp of sexuality and gender identity?
   
We read in the Bible that the killing of a child in the womb necessitated requiring "a life for a life," thus clearly establishing God's view of the value of the unborn (Exodus 21:22-23). We read passages in which God knew His servants before they were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5; Isaiah 49:1). Yet, not only do we freely kill babies in the womb, many are furious when anyone questions the "right" to do so. My God, we live in a society where it's okay to kill a baby, but you can go to jail for injuring a dog!

Personally, I choose to stand with God on moral matters rather than taking the humanistic, progressive path. We all have a right to hold and express our views, and to live accordingly. But we need to keep in mind that we will all one day stand before God and be held accountable. At that time, no one will be able to ignore what God says.

[Kingfisher]

I think if we can work through what I see is the main problem, that being here in the States as abortion on demand. Abortion because a child is unwanted or inconvenient...etc. The other instances fall in a minority of cases category. A majority view of US citizens seem to agree with this position.

[IMINXTC]

In the instance of abortion, a life is terminated. Every time.

[Sojourner]

I understand that many people are outraged over what was revealed by the leak. What's baffling is that so few people seem concerned about the serious breech in security that the leak represents. Mission accomplished, I guess.

[Athanasius]

In the instance of abortion, a life is terminated. Every time.

Yes, and unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

[IMINXTC]

I think if we can work through what I see is the main problem, that being here in the States as abortion on demand. Abortion because a child is unwanted or inconvenient...etc. The other instances fall in a minority of cases category. A majority view of US citizens seem to agree with this position.

Yes, there will always be situations that must be addressed through abortion, such as those that endanger a mother's life.

[Oscar_Kipling]

i've often fantasized about Roe v Wade being overturned or the  criminalization of abortion, mostly because I am extremely curious about what Pro life Christians will do with all of the energy, intellect and creativity they have been putting into this fight. I wonder will all that love and compassion and deep respect for the lives of the unborn be transposed into becoming equally vocal, focused, determined and financially supportive in helping mothers/parents and children who are in situations where they are ill suited, woefully unprepared and/or frighteningly lacking resources needed to shepard that newborn into healthy adulthood. I wonder will they take to the streets with equal fervor to then address food insecurity, healthcare access, housing, living wages, education equality, disproportionate pollution in economically depressed communities and so on? With the dense dark fog of abortion finally cleared from their eyes will Christians in America be able to clearly see the other areas where they can serve underserved families and communities and help to nourish those babies into childhood and those children into adulthood? With the great torturous weight of abortion lifted from their shoulders, will they feel strong and nimble enough to pour untold energy into the lives of the very people who would have previously utilized abortion, to guide, and sometimes even carry them over and through the challenging terrain of child rearing? Will they now focus all of that legislative cunning and dexterity to come up with wildly imaginative legal solutions to some of the problems that many of those would-have-been abortion recipients have toiled under for generations? Will they all unify beneath the banner of pro-life and expand its meaning to encompass the rest of that child's life, and the parent's lives and the community's lives so that they can lessen burdens, impart wisdom and supply resources to address the struggles that come after birth? 

I mean, If something like that were to happen, if Christians approached the lives of the post-born with the same zeal, fervor, long term persistence and utter disregard for individual autonomy,  then who among us could deny that it actually was all about love all along, that this fight was in service of lifting us up and providing benevolent guidance and not about forcing free individuals with different beliefs and mindsets into behaving as you dictate they should...Of course that's just what I fantasize happening, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all that excess energy is reinvested into another long and intense fight to force free individuals with different beliefs and mindsets into behaving as you dictate they should instead of merely ensuring that your own behaviors are aligned with your own beliefs as a free individual.   

[RabbiKnife]

Why should anyone care?

If you believe Christians are the evil, selfish, brutal persons your post suggests, why would you care?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Why should anyone care?

If you believe Christians are the evil, selfish, brutal persons your post suggests, why would you care?

ummm, at most my post suggested sellfishness in Christians that seek to implement legislation to bring other free individual's behaviors into alignment with their beliefs, if you choose to go over the top with all this "evil brutal" business then know that you are choosing to do that for your own reasons. Anyway, Why would I care about what exactly?

Edit: to be clear selfishness works, but ultimately I was going for Christian hypocrisy more than anything else.

[RabbiKnife]

In any event, your comment was intended to denigrate Christians by attributing your caricature and assumption as to their reasons for opposing abortion on demand

I get it

You think Christian’s are stupid and beneath your intellectual brilliance and sophistication

[IMINXTC]

Both my experiences as a Christian and as a pro-life activist prove your unfounded accusations to be nonsensical at best, Oscar. You know nothing about what believers do with their time and resources. You simply set them up for failure by establishing your own bogus set of standards.
You read like any number of very wordy trolls who fail to contribute an iota of verifiable fact - that's obviously your method.
Boring.

[Athanasius]

i've often fantasized about Roe v Wade being overturned or the  criminalization of abortion, mostly because I am extremely curious about what Pro life Christians will do with all of the energy, intellect and creativity they have been putting into this fight. I wonder will all that love and compassion and deep respect for the lives of the unborn be transposed into becoming equally vocal, focused, determined and financially supportive in helping mothers/parents and children who are in situations where they are ill suited, woefully unprepared and/or frighteningly lacking resources needed to shepard that newborn into healthy adulthood. I wonder will they take to the streets with equal fervor to then address food insecurity, healthcare access, housing, living wages, education equality, disproportionate pollution in economically depressed communities and so on? With the dense dark fog of abortion finally cleared from their eyes will Christians in America be able to clearly see the other areas where they can serve underserved families and communities and help to nourish those babies into childhood and those children into adulthood? With the great torturous weight of abortion lifted from their shoulders, will they feel strong and nimble enough to pour untold energy into the lives of the very people who would have previously utilized abortion, to guide, and sometimes even carry them over and through the challenging terrain of child rearing? Will they now focus all of that legislative cunning and dexterity to come up with wildly imaginative legal solutions to some of the problems that many of those would-have-been abortion recipients have toiled under for generations? Will they all unify beneath the banner of pro-life and expand its meaning to encompass the rest of that child's life, and the parent's lives and the community's lives so that they can lessen burdens, impart wisdom and supply resources to address the struggles that come after birth?

Do you do any of this? 

I mean, If something like that were to happen, if Christians approached the lives of the post-born with the same zeal, fervor, long term persistence and utter disregard for individual autonomy,  then who among us could deny that it actually was all about love all along, that this fight was in service of lifting us up and providing benevolent guidance.

Because, save for the protesting and demonstrating, I have and do. And you know what? There are plenty of people who talk big while plenty of children - let's say - find themselves forgotten in social systems because they're too damaged, too old, too difficult, too whatever, to adopt.

And I think every church I've attended has programs that help in exactly these ways, too. There are plenty of Christians who also do these things. If you don't know any personally then that's a tragedy, and you're setting the example with fervour of your own?

[Oscar_Kipling]

In any event, your comment was intended to denigrate Christians by attributing your caricature and assumption as to their reasons for opposing abortion on demand

I get it

You think Christian’s are stupid and beneath your intellectual brilliance and sophistication

Hm, perhaps lately you've been dealing with people who have been very nasty to you about your religion, or maybe you are unconsciously seeking confirmation for your predictions that Christians are going to suffer agonizing persecution if Roe v Wade is actually overturned, or maybe you like the validating feeling you get when unbelievers slither up and attack you with petty condescension. I remember you from the old site, and I don't recall thinking that you were stupid, in fact unless you aren't who I think you are I thought of you as one of the reasonable people on the board, believe it or not. Whatever it is you are going through or dealing with I hope you realize sooner rather than later that the phone call is coming from inside the house and you are essentially heaping this torment upon yourself.

Anyway yes, I did intend to criticize what I see as the hypocrisy of many pro-life Christians who have marshalled vast amounts of persistent & determined manpower, brainpower and the power of the pocketbook for nearly half a century focused on overturning roe v wade and/or eroding the availability and legality of abortions, while not spending nearly as much of any of those resources or volume on providing sustained long term assistance on born people. Every election cycle it would be hard to swing a cat without hitting a wall of sound and fury attempting to shout abortion legality and availability out of existence. Every year like a snowball accumulating mass as it rolls down a hill there have been ever cleverer and more creative laws created; ostensibly to increase women's health and safety or somesuch, but actually designed to reduce availability of abortions...Yet no such momentum or creativity was employed over the same period to assist the underprepared and  underfunded mothers. And yes I fully expect that even if roe v wade is overturned and abortions outlawed in every state of the union the many of those same highly energized pro life Christians will not suddenly direct that energy and those resources to actually helping the women and the families that will result.

I don't know why you insist on deploying all of this chaff like "evil" "stupid" "unsophisticated" instead of just acknowledging my actual criticisms that there is significant hypocrisy, duplicity, and self-centeredness in the Christian pro-life community that prevents it from actually affecting positive change in the life of the impoverished, unprepared and/or unaccompanied mother or the life of the post-birth child that has to be raised by a single struggling parent...or at least not anywhere near the degree, volume or pace of change brought about in abortion legislation/court challenges, availability reduction or even messaging. I've left a million pro-life conversations/ debates/ pamphlets/ documentaries/ rallies/ sermons/ lectures with a crystal clear understanding of why they object to abortion and why and how they plan to end it, but I can probably count on 1 hand the amount of times I've left with an idea about how they plan to support and guide that struggling new mother/family to overcome the challenges that come with a new born or a toddler or a tween or a teen. I've legit seen young mothers dropped like hot potatoes by crisis pregnancy centers as soon as they give birth or sometimes as soon as they breech the temporal threshold where it is no longer legal for them to receive an abortion in their state. 

I don't think that any of these behaviors that I've witnessed and heard/read about within the Christian pro life community are due to stupidity or a lack of sophistication or because they haven't joined me in the 99th percentile of intelligence because believe it or not I don't think that any of this stuff requires anything but normal intelligence. Frankly I do not believe that most things in life that are worth knowing or will lead to a life worth living or are worth fighting for or against are especially dependant on intelligence at all. I am intelligent, and I do know it , but you've made a serious error if you believe that I think it is what separates me from you or is what I value most about myself or anyone else...I'm too old, been through too much and had my intellect fail me too often to believe that.

You'd be right that i'm not especially impressed by you today, but it's not your lack of intelligence, it's your lack of generosity in reading my posts that is making me SMH, it's your failure to read the emotional room and your apparent eagerness to be an object of ridicule so much so that you've read your insecurities into my post and missed the actual criticism. Its your zeal and hunger to see denigration and persecution in a legitimate criticism, and your readiness to play the martyr and take offense so much so that instead of expressing your own opinion or attempting to correct what you consider to be false assumptions in my post you were so ready to be caricatured that you've caricatured me. You could have engaged in conversation where there is at least the possibility that I could leave with a better understanding and fewer misapprehensions, instead you've painted me as some sort of jerk so in love with his own intellect that I would completely fail to recognize that you might have something interesting or valuable to say....that aint me bro even if I knew I was far brighter than you that doesn't mean that i believe there is no value in what you might have to say about this subject...anyway I hope you read all of that and I hope you can adjust your attitude toward nme because we probably could have some good convos, i'm pretty sure we have in the past, 

[Oscar_Kipling]

Both my experiences as a Christian and as a pro-life activist prove your unfounded accusations to be nonsensical at best, Oscar. You know nothing about what believers do with their time and resources. You simply set them up for failure by establishing your own bogus set of standards.
You read like any number of very wordy trolls who fail to contribute an iota of verifiable fact - that's obviously your method.
Boring.

True, I don't know what you do with your time and resources, but I cannot imagine why you think that I haven't actually spent a great deal of time with believers (most of my life in fact) to the degree that I can speak about what i've experienced. I get it though, it was a huge component of my previous thread, Not all christians <insert anything here>, to be clear, yes not all pro life Christians behave this way, but i've certainly seen that some do. If you are not represented by "some other Christians somewhere" It should hardly surprise you that some people claiming to be Christians spend their time and resources in a way that is actually different to you. We're on the same coin here because unless you can claim that your expirience of Christians is  the only one that anyone could have possibly had then you must acknowledge that  I could have very well had a different set of experiences.   


"You read like any number of very wordy trolls who fail to contribute an iota of verifiable fact - that's obviously your method.
Boring."

Sorry i've bored you by trolling you with my opinions of my experiences of my first 2 decades growing up in southern baptist churches and then later in life exploring various churches and groups, web forums and such on my own. its cool how i must be a liar because i got something different out of my own life experiences than you got out of yours. ....still a paranoid bunch i see.

[Oscar_Kipling]

i've often fantasized about Roe v Wade being overturned or the  criminalization of abortion, mostly because I am extremely curious about what Pro life Christians will do with all of the energy, intellect and creativity they have been putting into this fight. I wonder will all that love and compassion and deep respect for the lives of the unborn be transposed into becoming equally vocal, focused, determined and financially supportive in helping mothers/parents and children who are in situations where they are ill suited, woefully unprepared and/or frighteningly lacking resources needed to shepard that newborn into healthy adulthood. I wonder will they take to the streets with equal fervor to then address food insecurity, healthcare access, housing, living wages, education equality, disproportionate pollution in economically depressed communities and so on? With the dense dark fog of abortion finally cleared from their eyes will Christians in America be able to clearly see the other areas where they can serve underserved families and communities and help to nourish those babies into childhood and those children into adulthood? With the great torturous weight of abortion lifted from their shoulders, will they feel strong and nimble enough to pour untold energy into the lives of the very people who would have previously utilized abortion, to guide, and sometimes even carry them over and through the challenging terrain of child rearing? Will they now focus all of that legislative cunning and dexterity to come up with wildly imaginative legal solutions to some of the problems that many of those would-have-been abortion recipients have toiled under for generations? Will they all unify beneath the banner of pro-life and expand its meaning to encompass the rest of that child's life, and the parent's lives and the community's lives so that they can lessen burdens, impart wisdom and supply resources to address the struggles that come after birth?

Do you do any of this? 

I mean, If something like that were to happen, if Christians approached the lives of the post-born with the same zeal, fervor, long term persistence and utter disregard for individual autonomy,  then who among us could deny that it actually was all about love all along, that this fight was in service of lifting us up and providing benevolent guidance.

Because, save for the protesting and demonstrating, I have and do. And you know what? There are plenty of people who talk big while plenty of children - let's say - find themselves forgotten in social systems because they're too damaged, too old, too difficult, too whatever, to adopt.

And I think every church I've attended has programs that help in exactly these ways, too. There are plenty of Christians who also do these things. If you don't know any personally then that's a tragedy, and you're setting the example with fervour of your own?

Yes, of course I do what I can because its actually important to me.

So is there a way to criticize behaviors I've seen in christian communities even though they do not represent every Christian down to a man? Like what if when you were criticizing the "west"  and its obsession with cheap chocolate I brought up my vegan friend who stopped eating chocolate?  I know you all understand the concept of speaking generally about pervasive problems so I dont get why I keep getting singled out  and i'm constantly forced into explaining that I don't mean every single christian, but this is something i've seen and experienced and I wanted to bring it up. like just read what I write and take the same things you would take for granted with any other normal not insane person.