The OT and NT have different topics.

[Fenris]

When it's all said and done, then, the Jew and non-Jew alike end up in the same circumstance?

When it's all said and done God is concerned with what we do. Jew and gentile alike. Hence the topic of the bible being sanctification.

[Athanasius]

When it's all said and done God is concerned with what we do. Jew and gentile alike. Hence the topic of the bible being sanctification.

If we're talking about a covenant with one people who are to be the "moral pilot project to the rest of the world to follow", then doesn't this imply something about the world should the world not follow? That is, if God is a righteous God, then those who do evil don't receive what is good -- or do they? But if they don't, then does this suggest that sanctification is tied up in something more than just its own sake?

[Fenris]

If we're talking about a covenant with one people who are to be the "moral pilot project to the rest of the world to follow", then doesn't this imply something about the world should the world not follow? That is, if God is a righteous God, then those who do evil don't receive what is good -- or do they?

Looking at this from the negative side "what if the world doesn't follow" is a very (if you will pardon the expression) Christian way to look at things. You guys are obsessed with sin and it's consequences. Why not look at it like this: Every single good deed that we do sanctifies both the doer and the world. Even doing a single thing that God asks changes the world in ways that we cannot even imagine.

Instead of talking about sin and punishment, consider it as people who miss out on opportunities for sanctification. 

Now go from there.

[RabbiKnife]

Why would I go from there when God starts with dealing with sin and it’s consequences?

[Fenris]

Why would I go from there when God starts with dealing with sin and it’s consequences?

The glass doesn't have to be half empty. It's just that Christians see it that way.

[Athanasius]

If we're talking about a covenant with one people who are to be the "moral pilot project to the rest of the world to follow", then doesn't this imply something about the world should the world not follow? That is, if God is a righteous God, then those who do evil don't receive what is good -- or do they?

Looking at this from the negative side "what if the world doesn't follow" is a very (if you will pardon the expression) Christian way to look at things. You guys are obsessed with sin and it's consequences. Why not look at it like this: Every single good deed that we do sanctifies both the doer and the world. Even doing a single thing that God asks changes the world in ways that we cannot even imagine.

Instead of talking about sin and punishment, consider it as people who miss out on opportunities for sanctification. 

Now go from there.

That's because a lot of Christians operate from the assumption of an Augustinian, ontological sin nature, as a consequence of the sin of Genesis 3. But what I'm asking is, what about those who consistently act in ways that don't sanctify the world? I reject Augustine so I don't think I'm stuck on 'sin and punishment', but on, what of those who act in malicious, immoral, evil ways?

Are you saying that they also engage in good deeds - and surely they do - and those deeds sanctify, and are in some way redemptive? I suppose in that I'm assuming that acts follow from character, so how someone acts tells us about who they are. Or is the idea that we have opportunities for sanctification, and even if we miss every single one of them and curse God our entire lives, we still go wherever it is the moral people go? Is there a sense of life after death, or is the idea purely: what you do in this life is what matters because there's nothing more? (And in that case, can there even be a Christian sense of salvation? And if not, is then salvation predicated on sanctification, i.e., the salvation of the future is predicated on the sanctifying acts of today?)

[Fenris]

That's because a lot of Christians operate from the assumption of an Augustinian, ontological sin nature, as a consequence of the sin of Genesis 3. But what I'm asking is, what about those who consistently act in ways that don't sanctify the world? I reject Augustine so I don't think I'm stuck on 'sin and punishment', but on, what of those who act in malicious, immoral, evil ways?

So here's another observation. The OT spends an exhaustive amount of time talking about those things that God expects from us. Well the Jews, anyway. It spends almost no time talking about what happens when we don't meet those expectations. There are two chapters that dwell on it, Lev 26 and Deut 28, and those chapters are clearly warning about the community falling short of standards and not individuals.  So why don't we focus on what constitutes the majority of the bible? Do what God expects.

Are you saying that they also engage in good deeds - and surely they do - and those deeds sanctify, and are in some way redemptive?

The bible doesn't tell us that deeds are "redemptive". The whole idea of being "saved" in the Christian sense doesn't exist outside of the Christian bible. As my first post says, it's a different topic.

I suppose in that I'm assuming that acts follow from character, so how someone acts tells us about who they are. Or is the idea that we have opportunities for sanctification, and even if we miss every single one of them and curse God our entire lives, we still go wherever it is the moral people go?

The bible is silent on this, so why make assumptions? Again, this is looking at the topic from a NT standpoint.

Is there a sense of life after death, or is the idea purely: what you do in this life is what matters because there's nothing more?

What we do with our time here matters because God says that it does. The bible doesn't really tell us what happens after. Surely there is something. But I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to concern myself with the things that God told me to do. Let Him worry about what comes after.

[ProDeo]

You guys are obsessed with sin and it's consequences.

Indeed.

From my point of view, what happened in the garden (rebellion) and the God ordered immense consequences that followed is dominant for the rest of the Scriptures.

[RabbiKnife]

That's because a lot of Christians operate from the assumption of an Augustinian, ontological sin nature, as a consequence of the sin of Genesis 3. But what I'm asking is, what about those who consistently act in ways that don't sanctify the world? I reject Augustine so I don't think I'm stuck on 'sin and punishment', but on, what of those who act in malicious, immoral, evil ways?

So here's another observation. The OT spends an exhaustive amount of time talking about those things that God expects from us. Well the Jews, anyway. It spends almost no time talking about what happens when we don't meet those expectations. There are two chapters that dwell on it, Lev 26 and Deut 28, and those chapters are clearly warning about the community falling short of standards and not individuals.  So why don't we focus on what constitutes the majority of the bible? Do what God expects.

Are you saying that they also engage in good deeds - and surely they do - and those deeds sanctify, and are in some way redemptive?

The bible doesn't tell us that deeds are "redemptive". The whole idea of being "saved" in the Christian sense doesn't exist outside of the Christian bible. As my first post says, it's a different topic.

I suppose in that I'm assuming that acts follow from character, so how someone acts tells us about who they are. Or is the idea that we have opportunities for sanctification, and even if we miss every single one of them and curse God our entire lives, we still go wherever it is the moral people go?

The bible is silent on this, so why make assumptions? Again, this is looking at the topic from a NT standpoint.

Is there a sense of life after death, or is the idea purely: what you do in this life is what matters because there's nothing more?

What we do with our time here matters because God says that it does. The bible doesn't really tell us what happens after. Surely there is something. But I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to concern myself with the things that God told me to do. Let Him worry about what comes after.

To be fair, our Scripture tells us exactly what happens after, which is why yes, Christians are obsessed with the issue of sin and what God has done about it.

[Athanasius]

I find 'obsession' has a negative connotation, so I'm not sure it's the right word.

Insofar as Fenris' distinction between the Jewish and Christian bibles, I think the "surely there is something" tips the hat that perhaps there's more to the Jewish bible than sanctification, and more to the Christian bible than salvation.

[Fenris]

Indeed.

From my point of view, what happened in the garden (rebellion) and the God ordered immense consequences that followed is dominant for the rest of the Scriptures.

What immense consequences? It hardly features in the OT at all.

[Fenris]

To be fair, our Scripture tells us exactly what happens after, which is why yes, Christians are obsessed with the issue of sin and what God has done about it.

Yes. Your scripture. Because it's about "salvation". That's my contention.

On the other hand, my bible hardly talks about the consequences of sin at all. It's mostly about that God expects of us. "Be holy". How? "Do these things that I command you". Ok.

[ProDeo]

Indeed.

From my point of view, what happened in the garden (rebellion) and the God ordered immense consequences that followed is dominant for the rest of the Scriptures.

What immense consequences? It hardly features in the OT at all.

The garden is described as an heavenly place (not from this Earth but somewhere supernatural on Earth) where A&E lived in the presence of God. It was a place without sin and thus without death (Gen 2:17). No animal killing to have a nice steak, only verbs and fruit were on the menu. Like it will be on the new Earth (Jes 65:25). So a perfect world. No death, no killing, no sickness, no wars, no tornado's, no earthquakes, no COVID, no Putin, no climate change, all of that don't happen in a heavenly place where God lives.

Then one moment of disobedience and everything changed, kicked out of the heavenly place, away from the presence of the Lord on a not so nice Earth, full of dangers, death as the inevitable end result. I assume A&E cried a million of tears because of the new reality and what was lost. It's that how serious God takes sin.

Consider also there was no mercy for A&E, God could have forgiven them, He did not.

[Fenris]

The garden

The garden is in three chapters of the bible. My bible has 929 chapters. That means the garden is around 3/10 of 1% of the bible. The garden happened, and the story goes on. The topic of my bible is sanctification, not the garden.

Then one moment of disobedience and everything changed, kicked out of the heavenly place, away from the presence of the Lord on a not so nice Earth, full of dangers, death as the inevitable end result.

It depends on one's outlook. I see Adam and Eve's actions giving our life meaning. We can make choices. We can do the right thing, "be holy", in spite of temptation.

Consider also there was no mercy for A&E, God could have forgiven them, He did not.

No mercy? God could have killed them on the spot. That was the proscribed punishment. Yet He did not. That shows plenty of mercy.

This week's reading from the prophets features the interesting verse of Ezekiel 20:17 "...they kept rejecting My ordinances, refusing to walk in My statutes, and profaning My Sabbaths; for their hearts continually went after their idols. Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them..."

[Kingfisher]

The Jewish bible is about sanctification.

The Christian bible is about salvation.

Discuss.

Hey Fenris,

I appreciate the thought provoking topic!

When I read Psalms the book and David seem very occupied with thoughts of salvation, deliverance, being saved...etc

Others, like Jacob, Moses, Hannah, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah, Habakkuk...in the OT spoke of these things as well.

The context of those is deliverance, salvation from an enemy or adversary. Clearly they could not deliver themselves in their own energy. They sought out God because that was a work that could only come from God.

That's no different in NT. The NT identifies sin as an enemy. It's an adversary that I can't deliver myself from. It wars within me.

I see this enemy and know that my deliverance will come from no one but God. I seek out God. I cry out like David knowing that God will deliver me from this enemy. He is my Redeemer just as Job spoke of. And in the same way I know that my Redeemer lives.