Christian Overconfidence

[Oscar_Kipling]

I see a lot of pain. Maybe you are closer to the Kingdom then you think.

I mean, from your perspective it is and always has been all around me like the matrix, or at least the keys have. Of course I have pain, i'm suspicious of anyone claiming not to and as an American Christians causing pain is practically a national sport. I am curious as to why you think pain may indicate closeness to the kingdom? Or is it that I have pain around Christians and Christianity that you think is the real indicator? I hope not, people calling themselves Christians and in the name of God have been scarring people for centuries, Many of those folk were born, lived and died in that pain, pain incomparably worse than mine and they died as something other than Christian...nah pain is an unfortunate part of life, and Christian caused pain is an unfortunate fact of history and the present...I'm vaguely repulsed by the notion you've expressed every time I hear it...its almost like saying , well, people suck and the abuses you suffered at the hands of people that claim to follow him were just God inexplicably making things painful and really friggin confusing just to bring you closer to him because this is a really good tactic. I mean I know a lot of people that claim to be Christians claim to believe some form of this...And again I suppose i'm supposed to read it and feel the deep transcendent wisdom in it but it sort of sounds like what an abusive parent or spouse says "I'm only doing this because I love you, but you just wont listen!"...Don't get me wrong its not an idea unique to Christianity, but when in rome, criticise the deeply held beliefs of the romans.

[RabbiKnife]

[/quote]
, but when in rome, criticise the deeply held beliefs of the romans.
[/quote]

Or get a really good pizza.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I want to be swept off my feet and dance like a dervish, I want to be deliriously happy for some indeterminately brief amount of time, I want Jesus to give me the kind of hug that leaves no doubt even in my questioning mind that it was a bona-fide Jesus Hug, and then 28 or so minutes later I want another one just for good measure. I want to pick up the bible and feel the scales drop from my eyes and instead of seeing a bunch of made up stuff punctuated by reasonably good advice sometimes and very very bad advice at others, I see the most true thing ever written with nothing but really cool useful advice that is super relevant to my struggles and the struggles of literally anyone else that might cross my path or will ever exist. I want to one day notice that there is only one set of footprints because Jesus is carrying me like yoda on luke's back across the trials and tribulations of Dagobah, i mean life......Unless this thread is lousy with lying liars then all those stupendous things like actually happened to some if not all of you...well not Fenris cuz like Jesus, but still I'm supposed to take your wild claims and be like oh those other guys over there are nuts but you guys here in this one thread saying exactly the same kind of stuff are talking sense?

You want an experience to assent to a proposition, but even Paul had faith before his Damascus road experience. So say God reveals Himself to you, then what? Are you prepared to live a radically different life that's consonant with the revelation of God? Even the most devout Christians struggle with this, and it's one of your criticisms. Are you prepared to upend the very foundation of your existence to pursue a reality that involves things that you presently think are dubious, suspicious plain nonsense?

I've never been swept off my feet.
I've never danced a dervish.
I've never been deliriously happy (in fact, for most of my life, I've been miserable and anxious).
I have been hugged, but I've never had another -------------- and I've asked.
The Bible isn't so obviously truly concretely factual to me that I look at it as if the scales had fallen from my eyes.
I've yet to be carried by Jesus, although He's damned well helped out.

"Prove to me you're real and I'll believe" won't lead to belief, or maybe it will lead to the assent of a proposition, but the existential reality is an entirely different question. Faith is demanding, and revelation even more so. The anxiety of freedom, as Kierkegaard put it, is well and truly experienced by anyone who considers themselves to be responsible before God. What are you doing with any other potential proof of God's existence? What's to say you wouldn't write off a vision as a fever dream? After all, if God really did inspire the Bible and you say, "not good enough, give me more?" then what?

Have you ever heard Jordan Peterson talk about his dreams? That dude had a vision from God and understood it purely psychologically. I could psychologise my own experience easily. You have available to you what was available to us, and for us, faith came before the experience. Of course, this results in the complaint that God just never seems to evidence Himself to anyone but those who already believe. But no, God is evidenced in such a way that the possibility of freedom is maintained. You think the creation narratives are useful myths not concrete realities? That Noah's flood was local not global, or didn't happen at all? That Jonah didn't get swallowed by a whale? That's nothing new to Christianity. To deny God's involvement entirely - a metaphysical/philosophical question, not a scientific one - is a different matter, though. Did God kick-start abiogenesis or did it happen on its own? What's on the other side of the singularity that exploded our universe into existence? Etc. Etc.

Maybe there's something in common between rich men and scientists? physicalists? Hmm.

It was a composite of stuff people said in this thread (you were the Jesus Hug), some stuff other Christians have said (I know, their views do not necessarily represent your own...well except at the core right?)... also a couple of lines from the movie "meet joe black" because I love them and I thought they applied to my point.

At the risk of again being a weirdo by talking about other Christians, Some people that claim to be Christians claim to believe that Knowledge of the existence of God is written in everyone's hearts, and they claim that this is in the Bible. If that's true I don't simply have a mustard seed of faith, I have the Whole doggone jar of Mustard...no cap, Just facts! so in that reality a Hug could come unprompted at any moment.

I always find it strange that people give "Testimonies" of how they came to the faith, but then when i'm like "sweet I'd like one of those too please" everybody gets all ....oh when I say that's how I came to the faith what I mean is that I already had faith but this story is about the time that a really cool weird thing happened because I already believed in it...I won't besmirch the good name of Christians by calling this practice legerdemain, but it sure ain't what it purports itself to be on the face of it.

I'm already a pretty radical dude, but EMPHATICALLY YES! Like I cannot imagine a circumstance where I believe that the God of the bible is real and wants me to do stuff and i'm like "nah,i'm good". I mean what could be more rewarding that eternal life with the best thing to ever exist....and to top it all off I don't even have to be perfect at it(or arguably good at it at all) as long as I feel bad about it and ask for forgiveness...you aren't going to find a deal like that anywhere in a Godless world. DO you know how many minor faux pas I feel guilty about for months without any recourse to forgiveness and that's before we even get to the legitimately garbage things I've done. I already feel guilt and the fact that I can be forgiven by a thing with the authority to do so, boy oh boy. Also satan worshippers, like they make so much less sense to me than Christians....Anyway life is hard already and from my perspective no one is going to give me a single red cent at the end of it much less endlessly more of it...so yeah If there was a God I'd do my level best and legitimately feel guilty when I didn't probably, or maybe i'd be a bad Christians but a christian none the less (or is it the less, pretty hard to get a straight answer on that).


On the notion that maybe i'd rationalize a way out of it...well maybe I would but does that make it not worth a shot...am I not worth it? I try to help people that every fiber of my being says they are not ready to accept it, but it's worth a try because maybe just maybe. I guess it could be that God knows that of all his powers he still falls short of pulling off something convincing to little ole meat brained me...and in that case I guess i'm doomed and I should change my name to Calvin.

How do you know that Peterson's expirience wasn't strictly psychological? Plenty of folks that believe in something else or nothing have them, unless we are going to claim that every single case is either actually God or supernatural deception then some of them are straight up psychological or neurological and maybe Peterson's was one of them. I mean I don't know but seems like a waste of time pondering it either way when you and others in this thread had experiences we can actually talk about. I'm so surprised when people with supernatural experiences of God seem to unwilling to talk about all of the rationalizations they tried in detail...i feel like i'd barely be able to contain the squeal of joy if i had the chance to talk about it exhaustively.

Well some of the claims in the bible are definitely not opaque to scientific investigation and many have fallen, but yeah there are plenty of questions that there is no reasonable expectation that science will be able to answer conclusively, this is my cross to bear unless and until I get some supernatural answers....which is cool with me It would be a dream come true to actually have some answers to that stuff. Though to be fair God created it isn't anymore satisfying an answer than that the math indicates a singularity which is just a thing we call certain limits of the math and all we can do is speculate as to what that means about reality...not much meat on either of them bones for me.

[Oscar_Kipling]

, but when in rome, criticise the deeply held beliefs of the romans.
[/quote]

Or get a really good pizza.
[/quote]

wait...this site has some sort of electronic pizza dispensing technology? I don't see a pizza shaped button...where is the button!

[RabbiKnife]

Next to the transporter button..

Although my brother tells me that Rome’s pizza sucks compared to Naples…

[Athanasius]

It was a composite of stuff people said in this thread (you were the Jesus Hug), some stuff other Christians have said (I know, their views do not necessarily represent your own...well except at the core right?)... also a couple of lines from the movie "meet joe black" because I love them and I thought they applied to my point.

I know, but what I'm saying is that that was my experience, not other people's. Their experiences weren't mine, and my experience only happened once.

The yearning you're expressing is the evidence of the 'something more', but it's unrealised partly because you think its satisfaction will come through revelation. It won't, and even if it did, it doesn't last forever. You might even decide the experience was a figment of your imagination, perhaps the creation of an overactive imagination. If you determine that it was real, then you'll join the ranks of those who can't help but see their lives through the lens of accountability before God, and all sin, misbehaviour, or failure to do what's good and right as an offence against God. Maybe you'll decide that God couldn't possibly have revealed Himself to you because babies die of cancer and aneurysms are cruel.

There is more to belief in God than an experience that conveys assurance. I've had to make choices that have caused me to question whether I'm acting rightly, properly, justly, etc. To ask how God views how I'm acting, and how my acting impacts my position and relationship before Him. The assurance is terrifying because it means that you can never look at life as anything other than consequential. I had already begun viewing life that way before I had my experience, but since then I've never had the option to change my mind.

Also, we accepted what seemed to us to be evidence for God's existence. We approached the Bible with faith, and in my case, not blindly, but critically. The weight of existence in an inherently meaningful creation that is inherently teleological can be suffocating. If you really want that, then I suspect it has to come from someplace other than the desire for proof. The worst thing you could do is demand proof that leads you into a life of resignation.

At the risk of again being a weirdo by talking about other Christians, Some people that claim to be Christians claim to believe that Knowledge of the existence of God is written in everyone's hearts, and they claim that this is in the Bible. If that's true I don't simply have a mustard seed of faith, I have the Whole doggone jar of Mustard...no cap, Just facts! so in that reality a Hug could come unprompted at any moment.

You don't seem to.

I always find it strange that people give "Testimonies" of how they came to the faith, but then when i'm like "sweet I'd like one of those too please" everybody gets all ....oh when I say that's how I came to the faith what I mean is that I already had faith but this story is about the time that a really cool weird thing happened because I already believed in it...I won't besmirch the good name of Christians by calling this practice legerdemain, but it sure ain't what it purports itself to be on the face of it.

There's a simple answer for that in my case, which is that the story I conveyed isn't my testimony, but an answer to your question about revelation and what it might look like.

I'm already a pretty radical dude, but EMPHATICALLY YES! Like I cannot imagine a circumstance where I believe that the God of the bible is real and wants me to do stuff and i'm like "nah,i'm good". I mean what could be more rewarding that eternal life with the best thing to ever exist....and to top it all off I don't even have to be perfect at it(or arguably good at it at all) as long as I feel bad about it and ask for forgiveness...you aren't going to find a deal like that anywhere in a Godless world.

Oh, and what if you don't feel bad about 'it'? Repentance isn't some fleeting emotion, and it doesn't just entail doing things, but may also cover who we are as individuals. But if you're saying these (somewhat misguided) things, why not simply make the move and live the life, proclaiming, "I believe, help me in my unbelief"? Keep in mind that I've had one 'revelatory' experience in three and a half decades. One.  There's plenty of proof out there. If you want a personal experience then you're going to need to pursue a relationship, and relationships don't happen when one party is demanding the other provide proof that they exist at all.

DO you know how many minor faux pas I feel guilty about for months without any recourse to forgiveness and that's before we even get to the legitimately garbage things I've done. I already feel guilt and the fact that I can be forgiven by a thing with the authority to do so, boy oh boy.

Then why not confess your sin and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and get on with it? Or if not, then ignore your conscious because none of those things is meaningful at the end of the day.

Anyway life is hard already and from my perspective no one is going to give me a single red cent at the end of it much less endlessly more of it...so yeah If there was a God I'd do my level best and legitimately feel guilty when I didn't probably, or maybe i'd be a bad Christians but a christian none the less (or is it the less, pretty hard to get a straight answer on that).

Where did you get the idea that God wants you to convince yourself to feel bad about things you don't feel bad about?

On the notion that maybe i'd rationalize a way out of it...well maybe I would but does that make it not worth a shot...am I not worth it? I try to help people that every fiber of my being says they are not ready to accept it, but it's worth a try because maybe just maybe. I guess it could be that God knows that of all his powers he still falls short of pulling off something convincing to little ole meat brained me...and in that case I guess i'm doomed and I should change my name to Calvin.

How do you know that such an experience wouldn't do poor meat brained you more harm than good? What's the likelihood you'd see a sign and dissmively say, "Oh what, that's it?!" You're positioning yourself as if God has something to prove to you, or else He's not worthy of your belief. Maybe that's not the right dynamic?

How do you know that Peterson's expirience wasn't strictly psychological? Plenty of folks that believe in something else or nothing have them, unless we are going to claim that every single case is either actually God or supernatural deception then some of them are straight up psychological or neurological and maybe Peterson's was one of them. I mean I don't know but seems like a waste of time pondering it either way when you and others in this thread had experiences we can actually talk about. I'm so surprised when people with supernatural experiences of God seem to unwilling to talk about all of the rationalizations they tried in detail...i feel like i'd barely be able to contain the squeal of joy if i had the chance to talk about it exhaustively.

Have you ever considered that the context of the discussion is a mood killer? Go listen to Peterson talk about the dreams he has and then once you have we can talk about their psychological character.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I find it extraordinarily difficult to discuss the colors of the spectrum when one does not fundamentally accept the evidence of various frequencies of light and the concomitant interpretation of the same in terms of various colors by the human brain based on the stimuli response of the cones and rods in the retina.  You doubt the existence of God, the veracity of Scripture, the universality of both sin and evil and of the imago Dei and good.  I understand that.  You are speaking high Mandarin or Arabic and I'm speaking the regional "English" dialect of Appalachian coal country.  It is nature that we should have difficulty communication. 

The beast at Tanagra.
Kadir beneath Mo Moteh.

Our presuppositions prevent us from meaningful conversation, so we end up talking around each other.  Yes, using words in someone of a similar language, but either lacking communication or predetermining that the language of the other is not ever going to satisfy us. 

I start with very basic presuppositions.
1.  There is a supreme creator that is ontologically different that me.  Call that being/force/entity "Other."  The idea that all (even the limited "all") that man can observe exists without a first cause is foolishness to me.
2.  If there is anything that Other wants to communicate to me, it is dependent on Other to do the talking and to equip me to be the receiver, as I am apparently ontologically unable to communicate with Other on my own.
3.  From my observation of nature, humans, and human society, I must either acknowledge the existence of some code of morality that is based outside of man; otherwise, he with the biggest femur bone in his hand wins.
4.  I must recognize that in my inner most being -- call it id, ego, superego, conscience, mind, whatever -- in the part of me that makes decisions I have the capacity for the uttermost evil, abuse, horror, and societal wrong ever imagined by man.  If I don't recognize that, I haven't looked very deep.

I could really care less about what other Christians say or do vis a vis their faith.  That is between them and God.  There are many things that Scripture says that Christians should do, but I, like all other Christians, never seem to hit that mark.    That doesn't change the nature of God, or of His communication with humans, of the sufficiency of God's communication.  You reject Scripture because you want to reject Scripture; that's not necessarily a criticism (ok, maybe a small one), but it is true of all of human presuppositions.  None of us approach any issue without preconceived bias, as we are in the experiment.

There is more to life that scientific fact or test-tube/laboratory scientific evidence.  Discussions of deity, which are -- by any rational definition -- outside of mankind, are by nature metaphysical; trying to test or prove metaphysical constructs within the construct of scientific method or legal forensic evidence is like trying to see air or taste a color. 

I wish I could snap my fingers and see you swept off your feet and dance like a dervish.  Never happened to me.  I wish that you could have a supernatural vision, or  have Jesus give you a physical hug.  I pray that someday you will see only one set of footprints in the sand.

Maybe that works for others, but it hasn't been that way for me.  Even though I've been a Christian for more than 50 years, even though I am both undergrad and seminary trained in theology, even though I have served on church staff vocationally and at times been out of church attendance for years at a time, I have no silver bullet.  I've meet Christians who have no doubts and everything is unicorns farting rainbow sprinkles on cotton candy clouds, but that's not my existence.

Like I said, I've been a believer for 50 years, and to this day, the only prayer I ever really have that is from my heart is "Lord, I believe.  Help my unbelief."

Simple?  Yes.
Naive?  Probably.
Satisfying to you?  Probably not.

I keep going back to Paschal's wager.  I may be completely, sincerely wrong.  I hope not.  I really hope not.  I am convinced in my faith, that I am forgiven even when I sin, that I am loved even though I am unlovable, that I am accepted even though I am unacceptable.  I do believe the Scripture, even when I don't understand it. 

Yes, true Christianity is flawed, and frightening, and filled with imperfect blind men staggering toward what someone told them is the light.

But raging against the light never makes it any brighter.

But we aren't talking about light, were talking about God, not photons, not wave particle duality, but God. Not the electromagnetic spectrum, not the photoelectric effect, but God.

like you laid out a bunch of good reasons why God is not like light. they different is all I can say to that without being overly pedantic about a thing you already know.

presumptive, I speak appalachian, Look like a blackberry winter don't it? Anyway so you seem to be describing some hidden variable, Like the words in the Bible are at least translated to the same english as we both use, But something about you or working through you makes those words mean something significantly different in a way that you cannot articulate only make analogies to. I mean fine, but then without this hidden variable you all look like everyone else and the bible looks like other contemporary books of similar genre and literally everything you could possibly say in defense of these obvious inconsistencies is moot because I do not have the hidden variable that allows your non compelling defenses to be rendered supernaturally convincing. Its like why even try, you can't impart the hidden variable to me all you can do is keep repeating a bunch of stuff that there is no possibility of me finding convincing much less sensical. I'm mean you could tell me to look at your walk and how God has worked in your life but I feel like that is wildly inconsistent ...idk man

presuppositions

1. Okay but like, why would i? it's either a thing that you can defend or its literally a bad argument because its missing crucial components that can only be seen supernaturally.

2. If I conceded the first one this is less difficult to swallow, but still why these exact parameters around it?

3.Yeah, I believe this is probably true too...but if you go into some WLC law giver rigamarole because I gave you the tiniest sliver then oooo dolly. lol nah we can explore that if that strikes your fancy.

4. I mean I kinda believe this is fairly true, Like the circumstances would have to be pretty outlandish for me to genocide the world like I got bored in Skyrim, but sure.

5.Oh wait that was it? well 2 out of 4, turns out I do speak a little mandarin, but man, the first step is a doozy tho.


I mean I could say you reject the Koran because you want to reject the Koran and not because you are ignorant of its contents or very familiar with its contents and do not find it to be a compelling description of reality. You say that but everybody says that about their book, okay only some but still. Anyway as far as Christian criticisms go that's pretty tame and it only hurt one of my feelings. To the best of your knowledge does the bible say anything to the effect that your Christian walk will or may have any observable features that distinguish you from the rest of us dirtbags?

See air & taste color, a synesthete on a desert road or with a schlieren setup could do that..psfft you gotta get up pretty early to get one like that past me freindo. kidding but your point is taken...out back and shot because that was awful. nah kidding I see what you mean. Science isn't all that I wish there was, but it is literally the only fairly reliable, repeatable set of tools that make sense of reality in a falsifiable way that i've found. For me there are things I have accepted that I probably will never know, and things that are opaque to science. If there is a God then some people, and I know they dont matter and they suck, but some idiots think that God actually has and continues to do stuff in the world, and that is detectable at least in some ways in which some people that don't matter frame it. Intercessory prayer, I like that one, you can do science on entire populations ...but w/e Your God is opaque and that's fine, I'll just twiddle my thumbs and wait for him to do something supernatural to me...unless I have to believe he will first In which case I guess when I get to hell i'd have egg on my face wont I.

In this dim science world I can still enjoy the laughter of a child and cry at sunsets...I mean I haven't actually cried at a sunset but totally I could if I wanted to.

You seem to be arguing that instead of being swept up in supernatural rapture you got here through just presupposing your way there...not really my style. like do you believe one can just presuppose anything they want to get to a destination? or..i guess that's kinda a silver bullet.

Why aren't you wagering all the other living and extinct religions equally and spending all of your waking hours worshiping literally everything....I know some of them are mutually exclusive but still statistically you'd be better off practicing multiple non exclusive religions than just one if we're just gambling here. At this rate you are probably going to some religion's hell.

I mean in that way Christianity is indistinguishable from any other purely human endeavor, It just claims not to be a purely human endeavor.


Keep underestimating science at your own peril, I predict that lights powered by rage are just beyond the horizon.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I know, but what I'm saying is that that was my experience, not other people's. Their experiences weren't mine, and my experience only happened once.

The yearning you're expressing is the evidence of the 'something more', but it's unrealised partly because you think its satisfaction will come through revelation. It won't, and even if it did, it doesn't last forever. You might even decide the experience was a figment of your imagination, perhaps the creation of an overactive imagination. If you determine that it was real, then you'll join the ranks of those who can't help but see their lives through the lens of accountability before God, and all sin, misbehaviour, or failure to do what's good and right as an offence against God. Maybe you'll decide that God couldn't possibly have revealed Himself to you because babies die of cancer and aneurysms are cruel.

There is more to belief in God than an experience that conveys assurance. I've had to make choices that have caused me to question whether I'm acting rightly, properly, justly, etc. To ask how God views how I'm acting, and how my acting impacts my position and relationship before Him. The assurance is terrifying because it means that you can never look at life as anything other than consequential. I had already begun viewing life that way before I had my experience, but since then I've never had the option to change my mind.

Also, we accepted what seemed to us to be evidence for God's existence. We approached the Bible with faith, and in my case, not blindly, but critically. The weight of existence in an inherently meaningful creation that is inherently teleological can be suffocating. If you really want that, then I suspect it has to come from someplace other than the desire for proof. The worst thing you could do is demand proof that leads you into a life of resignation.

Are all of my yearnings proof that the thing I yearn for actually exists? Cuz I have a slew of wildly imaginative yearnings that I'd definitely like to be real.

Oh boy so i'm not even wanting revelation correctly, there is always fine print lol. Anyway cancer babies don't seem to be a problem for you and I'd be at least as good a Christian as you, maybe better, maybe even the greatest christian of all and I'd lord it over all the other lesser Christians...wait i'm doing it wrong again aren't I?

I already view life as consequential, in fact I think it is highly likely that the only consequences I will ever expirience will be while i'm alive. I get that you feel burdened by glorious purpose, but you know what is what. The heart of it isn't proof for me, that's merely a symptom, the thing that usually gets me to the thing, what I'd like is the truth. I'm not afraid that if God is true that it will be something that I don't like because the reality that I believe to be true is already significantly worse by my nieve estimation than one with an all loving God. It could turn out that i'm not a big fan of God If I found that he exists, but knowing he exists doesn't mean that I couldn't choose to disobey him later (frankly that seems like a very torturous existence of actively participating in your inevitable doom when you know there is a better way, but w/e maybe I lose all perspective). Point is I don't have to obey, I'm still free to tell God to kick rocks. The maybe of it all could only cause trepidation in a person who is especially concerned about blowing an imaginary opportunity...i'm not, I'll do what seems true to me whatever that is or I won't I can't imagine anything less useful than worrying about what I might do if this hypothetically happened.

You don't seem to.

IKR Thank you!

There's a simple answer for that in my case, which is that the story I conveyed isn't my testimony, but an answer to your question about revelation and what it might look like.

Fair enough.

Oh, and what if you don't feel bad about 'it'? Repentance isn't some fleeting emotion, and it doesn't just entail doing things, but may also cover who we are as individuals. But if you're saying these (somewhat misguided) things, why not simply make the move and live the life, proclaiming, "I believe, help me in my unbelief"? Keep in mind that I've had one 'revelatory' experience in three and a half decades. One.  There's plenty of proof out there. If you want a personal experience then you're going to need to pursue a relationship, and relationships don't happen when one party is demanding the other provide proof that they exist at all.

What if I do, and I find that Christianity suites me right down to the ground and I lead an uneventful life where I'm a dedicated Christian, A loving father and husband and a pillar of my community known for being quick to lend a helping hand, then I die in this world and go to see my father? That could happen too, I just don't understand why its a valuable exercise. Anyway I'm willing to be convinced with reason, that hasn't happened yet and to be honest spending years of my prime on it I doubt that I missed the one compelling argument...but i'm here so have at it by all means.

 

Then why not confess your sin and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and get on with it? Or if not, then ignore your conscious because none of those things is meaningful at the end of the day.

Because if I lie and sign myself to lies I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! If there is one thing I know, a relationship founded on a lie cannot last and if the first thing I say to God is I believe in you then i'm a lying liar because I don't. If I believed in God then I wouldn't even need to say that part and get to prostrating myself bang straight away. I don't believe that a person can just believe whatever they want at will no matter how much it conflicts with nigh on every other belief they hold....or heck maybe "they" can, I cannot.

Where did you get the idea that God wants you to convince yourself to feel bad about things you don't feel bad about?

oh no, I was just saying I already feel guilty about things for which i have no recourse for forgiveness, I would very much like to ask for and receive forgiveness. If there is a God he can do that (it is not entirely clear that that is even a coherent sentiment, but i'm told that's the gist of it)..anyway the prospect of forgiveness is attractive, even if it doesnt make alot of sense.

How do you know that such an experience wouldn't do poor meat brained you more harm than good? What's the likelihood you'd see a sign and dissmively say, "Oh what, that's it?!" You're positioning yourself as if God has something to prove to you, or else He's not worthy of your belief. Maybe that's not the right dynamic?

I mean I've always thought I was unique but i dont think I'd be the first guy whose head explodes if God sent me a vision...Like is there a single recorded case of traumatic vision injury? I get it it maybe I don't like it, I captured fried and ate cicadas last brood I didn't not do it because they might taste like tree sap and dirt ...which they did and a little like shrimp, 3 out of 5 would eat bugs again. Likelihood, Oh I have no idea we'd need to be specific. A guy once told me something about traffic lights changing after he prayed being a sign of Gods glory, that one I could definitely wriggle my way out of pretty easily though I might run some tests to see if its repeatable and if it is then I might end up getting arrested for tearing apart traffic lights. I mean why would God send a vision that is obviously misconfigured for me, fine if free will is important i'm cool with seeing how I deal with just enough wiggle room. Thine is, the faithful get visions so its all kinda moot. No, Its more like I frequently require proof or some compelling rational argument (or I at least have to find it so) to believe things. God doesn't owe me anything as I understand it, But he both loves and wants me...I know how I act under those conditions, take me out for dinner and dancing...but His ways I suppose. It doesn't make sense to me, actually not making sense is something I can deal with, It has internal logic, but it does not seem to comport with reality or reason.

Have you ever considered that the context of the discussion is a mood killer? Go listen to Peterson talk about the dreams he has and then once you have we can talk about their psychological character.

I have an extremely low tolerance for Peterson, but i'll subject myself to it ...just not right now, I have to mentally prepare lol. To be clear i'm not a psychologist nor am I especially comfortable that I could draw any true or useful conclusions by analysing a person from a video...but as a thing to do, i'm game.

[RabbiKnife]

So why would you feel guilt?

Do you believe in moral absolutes in the mode of Kant or other deontologists?

[Oscar_Kipling]

So why would you feel guilt?

Do you believe in moral absolutes in the mode of Kant or other deontologists?

well part of it is an anxiety disorder or so the secular world tells me, maybe its God telling me to think about how I bumped into a waitress last week because I wasn't paying attention 3 times a day for the next month. The other part is in the fact that I've legitimately hurt people and I feel guilt because I've grown and matured and I fell it was wrong and I'm not a sociopathy so I feel guilty.

I don't think so, but honestly I don't remember. I could say its evolution based but who wants to have that conversation (not me, please don't make me)....Anyway lets just say that Humans are more or less a certain way, They live under certain conditions on a certain planet in a certain solar system. Some of the things we value are fairly basic to nearly all of us, like not wanting to die (of course there are exceptions and times when other values supercede or augment this like jumping in front of a train to save your child). That puts a lot of parameters around what will and wont fly amongst humans, so while its not a strict set of edicts (life doesn't look like that anyway) its more of a framework of what to expect when you are humaning and what to expect from others and how others are expected to act and how you expect others to act. Is that clear?

[Athanasius]

I have an extremely low tolerance for Peterson, but i'll subject myself to it ...just not right now, I have to mentally prepare lol. To be clear i'm not a psychologist nor am I especially comfortable that I could draw any true or useful conclusions by analysing a person from a video...but as a thing to do, i'm game.

I'll reply in full later, but just to mention for right now, if you don't care for Peterson you might enjoy Mia Mulder, who has nothing to do whatsoever with the discussion at hand other that she's a historical / philosopher YouTuber who doesn't particularly care for Peterson.

[RabbiKnife]

So why would you feel guilt?

Do you believe in moral absolutes in the mode of Kant or other deontologists?

well part of it is an anxiety disorder or so the secular world tells me, maybe its God telling me to think about how I bumped into a waitress last week because I wasn't paying attention 3 times a day for the next month. The other part is in the fact that I've legitimately hurt people and I feel guilt because I've grown and matured and I fell it was wrong and I'm not a sociopathy so I feel guilty.

I don't think so, but honestly I don't remember. I could say its evolution based but who wants to have that conversation (not me, please don't make me)....Anyway lets just say that Humans are more or less a certain way, They live under certain conditions on a certain planet in a certain solar system. Some of the things we value are fairly basic to nearly all of us, like not wanting to die (of course there are exceptions and times when other values supercede or augment this like jumping in front of a train to save your child). That puts a lot of parameters around what will and wont fly amongst humans, so while its not a strict set of edicts (life doesn't look like that anyway) its more of a framework of what to expect when you are humaning and what to expect from others and how others are expected to act and how you expect others to act. Is that clear?

Clear but somewhat unresponsive.

Unless you believe that the concepts of “right” and “wrong” are merely sociological and not deontological.  In which case I hope I always stay on the good side or the majority.. 

[Oscar_Kipling]

So why would you feel guilt?

Do you believe in moral absolutes in the mode of Kant or other deontologists?

well part of it is an anxiety disorder or so the secular world tells me, maybe its God telling me to think about how I bumped into a waitress last week because I wasn't paying attention 3 times a day for the next month. The other part is in the fact that I've legitimately hurt people and I feel guilt because I've grown and matured and I fell it was wrong and I'm not a sociopathy so I feel guilty.

I don't think so, but honestly I don't remember. I could say its evolution based but who wants to have that conversation (not me, please don't make me)....Anyway lets just say that Humans are more or less a certain way, They live under certain conditions on a certain planet in a certain solar system. Some of the things we value are fairly basic to nearly all of us, like not wanting to die (of course there are exceptions and times when other values supercede or augment this like jumping in front of a train to save your child). That puts a lot of parameters around what will and wont fly amongst humans, so while its not a strict set of edicts (life doesn't look like that anyway) its more of a framework of what to expect when you are humaning and what to expect from others and how others are expected to act and how you expect others to act. Is that clear?

Clear but somewhat unresponsive.

Unless you believe that the concepts of “right” and “wrong” are merely sociological and not deontological.  In which case I hope I always stay on the good side or the majority..

Well, we can look at the world and see that right and wrong can vary rather wildly, so again I don't believe in some strict ruleset ...and yes   we should all stay vigilant regarding majorities and minorities, just other people in general, I think history loves to play out the truth in that over and over. Okay, I guess my beliefs are more in the style of sam harris' moral landscape. I don't believe in anything so specific that the best day of rest is sunday, but that humans do require rest beyond just sleep, they need R&R if you will is about as specific as i'd get there. There is a lot of flexibility in that, but if you do not acknowledge and abide this fact of human nature then you are likely to burn people out which for a lot of human endeavours is a worse outcome...I mean unless the plan is to burn people out even then abused populations revolt or write strongly worded emails or quit or strap on a rifle and do a bunch of murder..i think you see what i'm getting at, there are better and worse things to do people can do and it is not strictly individual values formed however personal expirience and such, its more about the facts of humans and the world....or like how you probably wont sell many cars that completely ignore human anatomy, there is plenty of room in car design but also some parameters.

[RabbiKnife]

But who cares about majorities and minorities unless you are on the minority side.

Why shouldn't the majority rule over the minority and abuse them.  Power.  Right is might.

Why is that not acceptable?

[Oscar_Kipling]

But who cares about majorities and minorities unless you are on the minority side.

Why shouldn't the majority rule over the minority and abuse them.  Power.  Right is might.

Why is that not acceptable?

I just explained, you definitely can do that and it happens all of the time. In fact America is in the middle of more aftershocks of the domination and mistreatment of minorities and it is frequently very messy and disruptive. Dominating people forever has never happened, and I cannot think of examples that didn't end in blood and chaos (that i wont pretend my recall means its never happened).

I think this question pretends that there are not any major and obvious as well as nuanced reasons why abject abuse is not a sustainable practice moreover Its pretty clearly not the most productive method. Its not the best way to produce food or other necessities or amenities..though maybe some degree of oppression is. Its a kinda gross thought that maybe some fraction of the populous being abused just the right amount produces a culture with the best healthcare for the most people or something. I do not think that that either of us believe that the parameters of the world (or in your case God's will and moral objectives) always feel fair or are always obvious or scrutable. Like from my position I have to admit that maybe the world that provides the greatest human biological and psychological needs is one where every child born has a limb painlessly removed....facts of human anatomy and other facts of the world makes that seem unlikely to me but the truth is I don't actually know and I have to struggle In my brief time here to decipher and support what I think is best. It doesn't provide certainty but that is the closest thing to objective morality that I believe.